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Ronald Montesano

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Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Peter Pallotta

Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2011, 09:59:27 PM »
Thanks much for the link, Tricks.

Congratulations, Jim - from the club website, that looks like a lovely site, and a fine collection of holes -- and that each 9 ends with a Par 3 is a charming touch.  (A wonderful 'back story' too.)   Can you add some insight - e.g. what has changed the most from the original?

Thanks
Peter

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2011, 02:03:39 PM »
I like Dellwood's new name and look forward to a visit this spring.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2011, 02:26:52 PM »
I would hardly consider Rockland County, 30 miles north of New York City , as being "upstate!"

Peter Pallotta

Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2011, 02:29:54 PM »
David - yes, I was struck by exactly the same thing. Couldn't figure out why the 'up state' angle was used -- maybe to separate the course/brand from the Long Island courses...or maybe "up state" isn't a place but a state of mind....

Peter

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2011, 05:00:41 PM »
Gents,

   The reasoning behind the name change from Dellwood to Paramount is rooted in the club's history.

   Phil Young would do a better job than me with all the details and exact chronology. The club's founder, Adolf Zukor, started Paramount Pictures in the early 1900s and commissioned Tillinghast to lay out an 18 hole private course for the purpose of his hosting his thespian friends at his private retreat. Paramount was one of the first major entertainment companies with a rich history of Broadway shows and motion picture studio productions.

  As many of you might remember, I offered last season to host any GCA'er for a round on our "Pre-Jim Urbina" layout. A fair number of GCA'ers took advantage and the 100% consensus was that this was a "diamond in the rough." Well, that offer still stands so feel free to contact me if you'd like to come by and see it. As the posted article mentions, Jim is beginning his work this spring and will be working again this coming fall. I've seen Jim's Master Plan and can say, with complete confidence, the completed Paramount Club will be a another Metropolitan area sparkling gem. Hope to hear from many of you.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Phil_the_Author

Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2011, 12:12:03 AM »
Steve,

I will post a bit of the history next week when I get back from San Francisco where I'm at work on another exciting project. Questions such as when Tilly worked on it, why was it called "Mountain View Farm" and how did he meet and why did Zukor hire Tilly can be definitively answered.

Tomorrow I will be enjoying the treat of spending most of the morning with Sandy Tatum. It is a very rare privilege that I am already treasuring.


Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2011, 02:38:19 AM »
Really glad to hear about this restoration.  I think this is one of the best layouts on an extreme sight that 8 have ever played.  The par 3's are reaaly strong.  This is a super fun golf course to play and one that never would get old or bored from playing.  I have a suspicion that the original playing corridors were pretty wide and very much created optimal approaches from angle of attack.

PS In the past, I've been a very accurate driver of the ball-wide fairways is not based upon a weakness, but on architects strength od design.  Many links courses are narrow and my out west beloved Desert Forrest can play pretty narrow in spots Like Engineers, the genius of the design will come out with width.

Phil, you are meeting with a great classy man.  I was very fortunate to have met him at Olympic in 1998.  Meeting gentlemen like Sandy, was one of the truely great fringe benefits of qualifying.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2011, 05:22:59 AM »
Robert,

   Yours is an astute observation! One of the key goals that Jim has recognized is helping recover the once-wide fairways from the tree-encroached corridors that have pervasively evolved. Yes, the par 3's are indeed wonderful and remind me of the set found at Somerset Hills (my absolute favorite Tilly one-shotters). Once restored, I strongly suspect the course will gain reputation and respect from even those who've never seen the site before.

  Be sure to make some time to come up and see it!

S
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2011, 07:06:18 AM »
This was my unexpected gem of 2010.  You owe it to yourself to get up there to see it - before and after Jim's work.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2011, 07:20:51 AM »
Steve,

I can understand why you would not want to, but it would be cool if someone on the project kept a Blog of the restoration process.

I like the name change.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2011, 09:11:41 AM »
Steve,

I can understand why you would not want to, but it would be cool if someone on the project kept a Blog of the restoration process.

I like the name change.

Mike,

  Great idea. I really have so much time as you know (Haha)! I'll try to see who might be able to do this.

S
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2011, 12:13:59 AM »
PPallotta,

Thanks for your interest.  The new Paramount CC (formerly Dellwood) is a Tillinghast course that as you may have read was created in the early twenties for Adolf Zukor.

When I made my first visit I was really impressed with the beauty and scale of the golf course and the little valley this course sits in.

 The first hole plays up a hill and when you stand on the first green and look out over the valley to the east, you have some really nice views. Secondly I was caught by surprise,  the way in which both nines ended on a par 3.  All the one shot holes vary in length, from 135 to 240 and this was in 1923.

A 1933 scorecard lists the second hole at over 595 yards.  Truly a 3 shot hole as Tillinghast describes in his book The Course Beautiful, he draws diagrams and discusses the importance of a three shot hole and the way a golfer is challenged with three distinct shots, Tillinghast make mention, “ There must be something along the line which make one think, something to invite brace endeavor and a suitable reward for the accomplishment” He goes on to discuss the importance of hazards and the real test of a hole designed in this fashion.

The golf course has some really interesting holes, bunkers were filled in and the others were altered.  A few trees have been added since the golf courses inception.  The selection of holes you get to play are very diverse.  It speaks volumes about what Tillinghast thought was important to any golf course.

So I am intrigued with the land that Tillinghast had to work with.    One of the owners is a big fan of Somerset Hills and the superintendent is very passionate about the golf course.  In my mind not a bad way to start off.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2011, 12:38:41 AM »
Jim,

I am out in SF and one of the SFGC members asked me today about "This unknown Tilly course back east that Jim is working on..."


Mike Sweeney

Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2011, 05:05:41 AM »
Jim Urbina,

Just curious if you have decided what to do yet with hole #7 (downhill tee shot over a local road, par 5)? Again, I recognize that it may be a moving target with local permitting.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2011, 08:14:08 AM »
I got a chance to play the course this week through the generosity of Steve Lapper and all I can say is that I can`t wait to return. This is an interesting  property with a fun mix of holes. A strong collection of par 3`s as well as some quirk will not leave you bored. #6 has a new back tee and one of the better skyline greens I have seen. #5 has some centerline bunkers that make you put on your thinking cap as to where to hit the tee shot and is another good hole. A great staff including my caddy David made this a very enjoyable day even in 90 plus heat. Anybody that has a chance should make a day out at Paramount. As Jim Urbina completes more work this course will only get better.  

Jim Colton

Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2011, 08:17:09 AM »
Just a quick plug: Paramount is one of the latest additions to the Ben Cox raffle!

Mike Policano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2011, 06:12:45 PM »
I was fortunate enough to play Paramount the same day as Tim and ran into him as we teed off 18.  We played with hickories and had a blast. The fairways were and firm.  You can bounce the ball into most greens.   And the greens, I kept muttering I will never be above the hole again, over and over.  I can see why Jim Urbina is excited to work on Paramount. Thanks again Steve. 

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2011, 03:47:48 PM »
A brief early note for those of you who might be interested.....

Paramount CC is proud to be the home course for a "Hickory" tournament beginning in 2012. Details to follow, but anyone interested should contact me, or the esteemed "Commisioner," Mike Policano.

PS...youse guys are welcome  ;D ;D!
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2011, 02:31:15 PM »
I'm told Paramount drains better than Castle Stuart...
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2011, 04:16:43 PM »
We opened our 2011 Bethpage Binge at Paramount. Unfortunately, the camera pooped out on the first green and I could not coax it back to life that day. Paramount was a marvelous round of golf, despite the intrusion of the road into the first and seventh fairway (didn't really bug me, as I played short of the road on one and we played 7 as a long par four from the forward tees.) The putting greens were the best we encountered all trip long, although the speed on the ones at Union Vale gave them a run for their money. Paramounts were easily the truest.

The golf course is in that state of "what might be," although "what is" is awfully good. Regardless of the order of the nines, you finish on a par three. Since I think Congressional made a mistake, this doesn't bother me. The land on which Paramount was built is divided into two segments, upper and lower. You only spend one hole going up and one hole going down, although 2-4 do a mini-descent/ascent, albeit in a perpendicular direction. Although the front nine is higher than the back, I felt more of a sense of vertical change on the lower portion of the course.

There is only one hole (16) that sits extraordinarily low, yet it is such a good hole that one can forgive occasionally-soppy fairways. The staff that we encountered, from club manager to superintendent (who joined us for 18 and dinner after) to caddies, was first-rate, passionately committed to their club.

Kevin and I had a great time discussing the merits of Tilly and Urbina with superintendent Brian. The third member of our binge is not a GCA guy and was exposed to IAT (incessant architecture talk) for the first time. As we went along, he confessed how impressed with what we saw in the golf course, versus what he saw, and how it affected the shots we opted to play. I encourage everyone to always play with a neophyte and to pick her/his brain after for a counter-vision of the golf course. Birds of a feather may flock together, but they don't learn nearly all they might.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2011, 05:34:55 PM »
We opened our 2011 Bethpage Binge at Paramount. Unfortunately, the camera pooped out on the first green and I could not coax it back to life that day. Paramount was a marvelous round of golf, despite the intrusion of the road into the first and seventh fairway (didn't really bug me, as I played short of the road on one and we played 7 as a long par four from the forward tees.) The putting greens were the best we encountered all trip long, although the speed on the ones at Union Vale gave them a run for their money. Paramounts were easily the truest.

The golf course is in that state of "what might be," although "what is" is awfully good. Regardless of the order of the nines, you finish on a par three. Since I think Congressional made a mistake, this doesn't bother me. The land on which Paramount was built is divided into two segments, upper and lower. You only spend one hole going up and one hole going down, although 2-4 do a mini-descent/ascent, albeit in a perpendicular direction. Although the front nine is higher than the back, I felt more of a sense of vertical change on the lower portion of the course.

There is only one hole (16) that sits extraordinarily low, yet it is such a good hole that one can forgive occasionally-soppy fairways. The staff that we encountered, from club manager to superintendent (who joined us for 18 and dinner after) to caddies, was first-rate, passionately committed to their club.

Kevin and I had a great time discussing the merits of Tilly and Urbina with superintendent Brian. The third member of our binge is not a GCA guy and was exposed to IAT (incessant architecture talk) for the first time. As we went along, he confessed how impressed with what we saw in the golf course, versus what he saw, and how it affected the shots we opted to play. I encourage everyone to always play with a neophyte and to pick her/his brain after for a counter-vision of the golf course. Birds of a feather may flock together, but they don't learn nearly all they might.

Ron-As much as I like Paramount do you really think the greens are better than Bethpage Black?

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2011, 05:39:54 PM »
Good point, Tim. I think that their conditioning was better, due to the fact that the Black gets a LOT more play. With the same conditioning/speeds, you are probably correct that the Black would be their equal or superior.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Paramount CC-Tillinghast design-Jim Urbina
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2011, 08:51:33 AM »
Gents,

   While undeniably biased and having a good number of rounds on both courses, I'd argue that Paramount's greens are indeed better than the Blacks. PCC's are much more canted, crowned, and sloped than BBs. They vary in size way more than the Blacks as well. The Black's most interesting greens #'s 4,11,14,15, 16 and 17 are difficult and noteworthy, but so many of the others are void of real movement or style.

   PCC, on the other hand, has just a handful of lees-than-interesting greens. #'s 2, (maybe 5?), and maybe 17 are the exceptions. Happy to go hole by hole, but I think that might best be left for 2013, when we expect all of Jim's work to be finished.

S
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith