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Adrian_Stiff

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2011, 02:28:18 PM »
Niall - I think the average UK club is pretty lean already. I think 90% probably more of UK clubs have effected some form of cost cutting already and cost cutting usually involves the loss of a member of staff. I think only an above average club would still be normally open for food after say 6.00 unless its an area where it can make money. You are spot on when you say the best savings will be in the house and that most people join a golf club to play golf, usually only around 30% of a membership are strong clubhouse users, a problem arises that the committee and decsion makers dont evolve from the car park meeters, they are in the strong 30% clubhouse user, these people believe that their opinion on how to run and spend in the clubhouse is good for all, and bar levies and forced usuage are all reasons why people leave golf clubs ,afterall  if you dont drink there is very little reason to use a clubhouse but someone has decided you should pay £50.

Pay and plays have been doing okay and are more recession proof, they tend to be less expensive and have picked up the group of golfers who get out once a month, sometimes twice in summer... I call these the 18-30s, they are band of golfers that are borderline as to a membership being value or not. If you multiply a £30 green fee 18 or 30 times you get a £540 - £900 range, clubs should look to price their memberships in this range, better survival will come from being nearer 18, you will lose more members if you are nearer 30.

Far too many golfers are in the 0-18 range and within that range lots like to be nomadic and play different courses, play on society days, weekend trips etc.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Niall C

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2011, 03:32:18 PM »
Adrian

Very interesting way of looking at the economics of members courses. Thinking of a lot of the parkland clubs round Glasgow, I would suggest that most are not far off the upper range and they will struggle. Interestingly the ones which are a step above that, like Glasgow, Pollok etc will struggle as well but not to the same extent. At those kind of places prestige plays a part for a lot of members and they will willingly pay a premium.

As an aside, I've just been talking to an Elgin member who is bemoaning the fact that the club are in the process of redoing all their bunkers (53 in total) in to what they imagine is a Braid style. Apparently there is a rumour that Braid provided a bunkering scheme at some point which is entirely possible given how prodigious he was. I'm pretty sure however he didn't tell them to build small, completely round and shallow bunkers everywhere which is what they are doing whether it be fairway or greenside. I played the course last year and saw them making a hash of one bunker and assumed it was a one off but this is terrible news if they are doing the whole lot. I suspect that this could do more damage than any change in the level of the subs.

Niall 

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2011, 04:45:12 PM »
Niall - I did not explain the membership economics quite right. Pricing a annual subscription should be in the range of 18x the green fee up to 30x the green fee,   so if you are a £30 green fee course the range is £540-£900, if you are £40 then £720 - £1200 is the range. If a UK club is outside this range its liable to have back door ways that are cheaper for much of the potential membership, say the membership was £900 per year but you can play for £15 there really is very little point in being a member and the club will suffer.

In these gloomy times people scrutinise their membership value far more intensely, also after periods of continued bad weather an automatic attention is drawn that you are missing golf and not getting your value, this is another prompt for anaylsis of your rounds factored by the cost.

Some golf clubs committ suicide by inventing super cheap times to play and fanatastic deals which alert the member that better value is achieved by dumping his subscription and playing on the new deal.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

JMEvensky

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2011, 04:53:01 PM »

Some golf clubs committ suicide by inventing super cheap times to play and fanatastic deals which alert the member that better value is achieved by dumping his subscription and playing on the new deal.


Sadly,this is not just a Euro problem.It's alive and well over here.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2011, 06:39:51 AM »
A club membership is cheap golf for some but expensive for others, if you play twice a week why should you pay the same as a once a month player.... there are two answers, one of these answers ends up in a resigination.


Adrian,

Clubs are addressing this problem by offering various categories of membership. My club has a category where the member pays about 1/10 of the annual fee and then pays the guest green fee every time he/she plays. If the player plays about 12 rounds, they essentially end up paying about the same amount as a full member. Any more than 12 rounds and it becomes poor value for the player. It's not perfect, but if they player only plays about 5 times, the damage to the wallet isn't as hard to take as paying full membership and only getting out 5 times.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2011, 06:53:37 AM »
A club membership is cheap golf for some but expensive for others, if you play twice a week why should you pay the same as a once a month player.... there are two answers, one of these answers ends up in a resigination.


Adrian,

Clubs are addressing this problem by offering various categories of membership. My club has a category where the member pays about 1/10 of the annual fee and then pays the guest green fee every time he/she plays. If the player plays about 12 rounds, they essentially end up paying about the same amount as a full member. Any more than 12 rounds and it becomes poor value for the player. It's not perfect, but if they player only plays about 5 times, the damage to the wallet isn't as hard to take as paying full membership and only getting out 5 times.
Doneal - Last year when I posted this, there were only a handfull of clubs doing this (outside of modern proprietary clubs) there are as you say a lot more doing it now. The figure of 12 rounds is wrong though, it needs to be at least 18, probably 24. If your membership was £1000 and you pay £100, that suggests an £75 guest fee. Either the guest fee is to high or the annual subscription is too cheap.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

John Kavanaugh

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2011, 08:27:07 AM »
I do not know a single 25 year old, including my son, who is interested in paying to join a club.  The have been reared on joining everything for free on the internet.  The simply do not see the value in paying to be a joiner.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2011, 08:36:43 AM »
The second issue is that you 35 year olds are a bunch of selfish bastards that don't believe in subsidizing other members who use the club more than you.  Club culture can not finance itself when every member expects value for every dollar spent.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2011, 08:45:58 AM »
The third issue is that us 45 to 55 year olds are waking up to the fact that we will not be able to retire like our fathers.  We can hang on until 60 when we grow tired and prefer not to eat cat food.  Things will only be worse in 2020.

J_ Crisham

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2011, 09:40:13 PM »
John,  I happen to agree with you as to where things will be in10-15 years. On a trip last month to Jupiter Fl, myself and another GCAer commented on the fact that only few Fl clubs currently have a full membership. Is this unique to FL? Hard to believe that the situation in FL will ever totally be what it was. Where is the next generation of wealth going to come from to take out all of the equity members that are 60 plus and will be paring things down as they age over the years or quite frankly passing away. I just don't see it. The glut of high end homes wil be even worse than now as the transference of wealth will most likely become difficult and will the next generation have either the means or the desire to afford these high end second or third houses. If a typical club costs 12K per year all in now, what will it be in 15 years with potentially 2/3rds the size membership? Very few clubs in the Chicago area are flourishing with comfortable waiting lists.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2011, 03:04:42 AM »
It seems to me that the situation of golf clubs in the UK is analogous to that of the traditional British pub.

Thirty years ago pubs were thriving; it didn't really matter how crappy the pub was - it would always have a full bar of regulars.

Over the last decade, however, there has been a crisis in the world of pubs, with thousands closing every year. The uncomfortable fact is that there are simply too many pubs for the number of people who want to frequent them. Of course, what will happen is that the poorly run pubs with little to offer will close, while the well run pubs which cater to their customers' needs will thrive. We can already see this happening with new pub companies turning in good results while older models fail.

At the end of the day, there will still be pubs - just not as many as there used to be. Those that survive will be in a stronger position and will offer a better proposition to customers than previously. Ultimately, I see nothing but good in this process.

I can't see the process of golf club rationalisation over the next ten or twenty years being much different.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 03:09:07 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2011, 04:09:46 AM »
Duncan - I think largely what you say is true, but I think location will determine where the axe will fly and where it will not.

1. golf courses in remote areas can survive because they are the only one, albiet standards may fall on numbers of rounds lost.
2. golf courses in dense areas will compete for business.
a: some high end golf courses will not suffer and the concentrate of those golfers requiring quality can be funnelled to them as new members are unhappy with the drop in the standard of their previous club.
b: some lower end golf copurses will do very well as price plays a big part in the golfers choice and clubs accept golfers with less archaic rules.
c: the clubs in the middle will do battle, location will play a big part and price another big influence, a club already in death spiral will be in a much worse position as it has already used its reserves.

Some clubs may get left big sums of monies in wills, which will aid a club, it can course aid a poorly run club and remove it from death spiral. There is a good possibility that many UK clubs could receive a windfall by a return by the goverment of Vat that has been charged on green fees since 1971, so they got that to look forward too... which is nice.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2011, 04:45:33 AM »
A club membership is cheap golf for some but expensive for others, if you play twice a week why should you pay the same as a once a month player.... there are two answers, one of these answers ends up in a resigination.


Adrian,

Clubs are addressing this problem by offering various categories of membership. My club has a category where the member pays about 1/10 of the annual fee and then pays the guest green fee every time he/she plays. If the player plays about 12 rounds, they essentially end up paying about the same amount as a full member. Any more than 12 rounds and it becomes poor value for the player. It's not perfect, but if they player only plays about 5 times, the damage to the wallet isn't as hard to take as paying full membership and only getting out 5 times.
Doneal - Last year when I posted this, there were only a handfull of clubs doing this (outside of modern proprietary clubs) there are as you say a lot more doing it now. The figure of 12 rounds is wrong though, it needs to be at least 18, probably 24. If your membership was £1000 and you pay £100, that suggests an £75 guest fee. Either the guest fee is to high or the annual subscription is too cheap.

Adrian,

I'm based in Sweden, so I guess the financial situation is a bit different as our course is only open from April/May - Oct/Nov. Less money is spent in the winter, but this is offset by zero income on green fees, and salaries still have to be paid.

Converting to GBP, the normal annual fee is about £550. For this special green-fee membership, the player pays an annual membership of £50 and each time he/she plays, a guest green fee of £40 is payable. The normal green fee is £50. I suppose from a GB&I, our membership fee is too low, but then again, our season is half that of GB&I.

I guess the bottom line is that clubs need to be more pro-active in seeking new members. Previously, our club had an entrance fee of £2000 that was refundable. Last year, this policy was changed, and now the entrance fees is £1200, but is now non-refundable. I'm not sure if this was the right way to go, but it all depends on the local economy, and Sweden's economy is booming at the moment, while the rest of Europe is in the doldrums.

Mike Sweeney

Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2011, 07:19:02 AM »
The third issue is that us 45 to 55 year olds are waking up to the fact that we will not be able to retire like our fathers.  We can hang on until 60 when we grow tired and prefer not to eat cat food.  Things will only be worse in 2020.

How many times did your father stay at The Plaza, attend opening nights on Broadway and travel a 1000 miles for a basketball game? I just don't see cat food in Jaka's future !!

Lou_Duran

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2011, 10:22:31 AM »
The third issue is that us 45 to 55 year olds are waking up to the fact that we will not be able to retire like our fathers.  We can hang on until 60 when we grow tired and prefer not to eat cat food.  Things will only be worse in 2020.

How many times did your father stay at The Plaza, attend opening nights on Broadway and travel a 1000 miles for a basketball game? I just don't see cat food in Jaka's future !!

Oh, to be born well!  Hopefully, my yet-to-be grandkids will know.

JMEvensky

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2011, 11:48:23 AM »


Some clubs may get left big sums of monies in wills, which will aid a club, it can course aid a poorly run club and remove it from death spiral.


Is this done frequently?

A member at my place suggested a program which would encourage leaving money to the club--none of us had ever heard of such a thing.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2011, 11:59:35 AM »
Doneal - That makes more sense though I still think the ratio at 12 is too low, probably £550 is too cheap and £800 -£900 should be a fairer number for full unlimited membership, some will play 12 rounds in a month.

JM - It's infrequent in large donations, but some members like to leave something to the club.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

JMEvensky

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2011, 12:23:58 PM »
Adrian--thanks.I could certainly see this being a worthwhile program for any club,but all the other things making clubs less attractive to the next generation probably means this idea will soon go away also.

Steve Okula

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2011, 12:34:36 PM »
This is only anecdotal evidence, but I'm with a fairly affluent private club in the western suburbs of Paris. We saw a real decline in business in '09 and '10, losing about 5% of membership and about 75% of corporate days compared to '08, which hurt worse, financially. But the basic financial health of the club was never in doubt, and we're seeing an upswing this year, regaining most of the membership and a doubling of corporate days over last year.

In the area, I haven't seen any golf course yet go out of business. Of course, there is zero new golf development in France, but then that has been true for the past twenty years anyway.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Niall C

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2011, 02:44:12 PM »
I do not know a single 25 year old, including my son, who is interested in paying to join a club.  The have been reared on joining everything for free on the internet.  The simply do not see the value in paying to be a joiner.

As a matter of interest John, how many 25 year olds to do you actually know ? I mean actually know and speak to on a regular basis as opposed to acquaintances you speak to now and again.

Niall

Niall C

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2011, 03:00:57 PM »
Duncan - I think largely what you say is true, but I think location will determine where the axe will fly and where it will not.

1. golf courses in remote areas can survive because they are the only one, albiet standards may fall on numbers of rounds lost.
2. golf courses in dense areas will compete for business.
a: some high end golf courses will not suffer and the concentrate of those golfers requiring quality can be funnelled to them as new members are unhappy with the drop in the standard of their previous club.
b: some lower end golf copurses will do very well as price plays a big part in the golfers choice and clubs accept golfers with less archaic rules.
c: the clubs in the middle will do battle, location will play a big part and price another big influence, a club already in death spiral will be in a much worse position as it has already used its reserves.

Some clubs may get left big sums of monies in wills, which will aid a club, it can course aid a poorly run club and remove it from death spiral. There is a good possibility that many UK clubs could receive a windfall by a return by the goverment of Vat that has been charged on green fees since 1971, so they got that to look forward too... which is nice.

Adrian

For what its worth I think the vast majority of golf clubs will muddle through, and for one reason only, and that is most of them are in the fortunate position that they own there own course.

I'm working on the premis that most of them were established pre-war and therefore were located on the edge of tow. By now the surrounding area will have been developed and most clubs will be sitting on a potential development windfall. Lets assume the club have 100 acres, they only need to get planning on 5 of those acres and it could easily wipe out any debt and leave a tidy sum over. In this climate banks aren't likely to extend any credit limits but equally as long as the club meets its interest payments the banks aren't going to call in any outstanding loans/overdrafts.

Cash flow might be tight and the club may have to cut costs significantly but I don't see any clubs going defunct unless the existing members want to cash in on the development potential of the site but then thats unlikely given that they all joined the club to play golf in the first place.

The clubs that will have the hardest time in my opinion wll be the rural clubs which are already working on a limited budget.

Niall

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2011, 03:25:46 PM »
Expect to see more drastic measures.


http://www.thisissouthdevon.co.uk/news/SELL-SAVE-GOLF-CLUB/article-2529262-detail/article.html


This is a Colt course with a solid local reputation in a very wealthy part of the country. Don't know how desperate they really are as I was unable to get a morning tee time this week. Drove past the club and the locals are revolting! All the houses round the course carry large signs opposing the idea.


PS  I suspect JK is playing the part of the hick to see what reaction he gets. Doesn't matter how many times we explain golf is different over here he acts like a cartoon version of a dumb american when the subject comes up. Randy Newman sent it up better in Political Science. John have you ever owned a passport?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Niall C

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2011, 03:39:21 PM »
Tony

This doesn't look like a club in trouble to me. It looks like one thats had a good offer and is looking to make a buck out of it, fair play to them. I started a thread a while back about whether the average UK members course was now functionally obsolete, or something like that. In I suggested that what they could do is sell up and buy farmland elsewhere, start from scratch, and get a course and set up that was functional in this day and age.

In this instance I hope this club do better than a club I was a member of who sold the clubhouse, car park and 18th green area for housing and the developer built a new clubhouse and car park, and gave them money to build a new 18th green 30 yards short of the old one, all at "no costs to the club". The club now have a 3 storey clubhouse that doesn't get used to anything like its capacity and they now have to cater for outside functions to pay for the running of it.

To cap it all they have nothing in the bank and the redesigned hole isn't a patch on the old one.

Niall

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2011, 04:26:41 PM »
Niall - The thought of 100+ acres of golf course land being sold for housing is finacially wonderfull, I suspect land is worth 50 fold with building permission (two years ago it was 300 fold). However, it is very hard to get permission and getting permission for 5 acres may be as hard as getting it for the lot. The planning laws are complex and 'limited infill' can sometimes be used in obtaining permission. Primiarily golf courses in the city and very loved as are parks and sports pitches, the city areas need greenery and these spaces provide it, an application is likely to be met with huge opposition to the proposal.

Many golf courses own land with covenants, many just lease the land, many are in green belts, but obviously many do hold the land with good and free title, another problem however could lie in the constitution of the club and some may be set up CASC, which is very restrictive, lots of clubs have turned CASC recently in order to avoid paying full business rates, it needs very carefull thought if you have ownership of land because the methodology of an Amateur Sports Club means not for profit and any land profit becomes the profit for the government rather than the golf club. It is minefield and the clarity of the document itself makes for differences in its interpretation.

A possibility how a club could raise money could be raise money via selling shares in the club itself, so it changes from being a club to effectively private, You could issue £1,000,000 value of stock say offering each member the right to buy. If you had 500 members each share would be £2,000. A member could buy or decline, there would be a number of decliners and others could take up the excess, like in a rights issue. The club is worth more than £1,000,000, but with convenants and restrictions the non-stockholders could be given some protection, it seems crazy that in theory no one actually owns the club, so effectively the land is common.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 04:30:50 PM by Adrian_Stiff »
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Bruce Katona

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Re: "gloomy" report on Euro golf
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2011, 05:07:17 PM »
Adrian: Take you illustration above one step further.  Say the club you used as an example issued $1,000,000 (pounds, euros, etc.) of stock to have the club become a private entity.  Members who participate become equity members and should have either some additional rights for taking on the equity position or get some return on their investment if the club turns a profit.

Say Bruce paid the full $1,000,000 and acquired the club.  What exactly would I be acquiring?  What are my rights, obligations or liabilities?

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