Why aren't there more drivable par 4 finishing holes?

[Ed Oden]

Apologies in advance if this has been discussed ad nauseum before.  It seems to me that the best finishers are half par holes.  But they tend to be either long and difficult par 4s or risk/reward par 5s that can be reached in two.  Why aren't drivable par 4s used more often?  I really can't think of any other than #18 at TOC.  Wouldn't something like the 10th at Riviera make for an ideal finisher?

[Brent Carlson]

Ed - good questions.  Like you mention, #18 at TOC is definitely drivable.  North Berwick has an even shorter par 4 18th, with a road along the right.  Both holes are exciting finishers.

[Peter Ferlicca]

Olympic at Gold Mountain has a cool 305 yard finisher that wraps around water.  Doesn't really fit in with the rest of the course, but provides a fun finisher to the round.

[Scott Warren]

The 18th at Woking is such a hole. Only reachable for the biggest hitters, but still likely to only be a half wedge for most of us, to a quite steep green where birdie is very much on the cards, but so is bogey or worse.

[Pete_Pittock]

One of the theories is that you want them earlier in the round, at least from a match play standpoint.

[Tom_Doak]

Ed:

There are lots of very short par-4 holes as finishers in Scotland.  In addition to The Old Course and North Berwick, there is Elie, and Prestwick.  The Eden Course at St. Andrews used to have a driveable 18th, too, before they commandeered it for a big practice range.

[Ed Oden]

One of the theories is that you want them earlier in the round, at least from a match play standpoint.

Pete, you may be right.  However, if that were the case then I would expect to find fewer drivable par 4 finishers in the UK where match play dominates.  Yet all but one of the examples mentioned so far are in the UK.

[Ed Oden]

Ed:

There are lots of very short par-4 holes as finishers in Scotland.  In addition to The Old Course and North Berwick, there is Elie, and Prestwick.  The Eden Course at St. Andrews used to have a driveable 18th, too, before they commandeered it for a big practice range.

Tom, why do you think there are few in the US?

[Jim Nugent]

Is it possible to drive #18 at Olympic Lake?  I saw the Tour Championship there in 1993/1994, and looked way out of reach then. 

[Mike_Clayton]

I have never played it but all who have rate the finisher at Durban CC. It looks like a really fun hole to finish. Maybe its 280 yards.

[Mark_F]

I have never played it but all who have rate the finisher at Durban CC. It looks like a really fun hole to finish. Maybe its 280 yards.

Mike,

Would the old first at Commonwealth have been as good a finishing hole as it was an opening one?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Drivable Par 4 (finishing Holes or not), do you guys really want Holes like this or allow technology to  gift you a good score (Birdie) for hitting a long Drive from the Tee.

 I had hoped that many would realise that it’s the equipment that has gifted the good score, noting the age of many of the Holes and not necessary the skill of the golfer.

The erosion of our great Holes is due to a lack of understanding or real willingness to control technology to the benefit of the game, its courses and not forgetting ultimately the players.

The 18th Green on TOC can be reached from the Tee, right under the noses of our Golfing Lords and Masters, yet they do nothing to reinstate the Hole is IMHO a total dereliction of their duty.

If you honour your National flag then by definition your honour tradition, so why do we allow technology to dwarf the once great Royal & Ancient Game of Golf.

I do not like drivable Par 4’s, where is the challenge. Do we have to reform and reshape our famous Greens to destroying all that went before because of incompetent management who do not seem to want to maintain let alone understand the game. Sooner or later common sense may prevail and perhaps due to cost they will realise that controlling the equipment is cheaper that reshaping our courses, but I fear it will be sometime before the reality sinks in to those on High.

Drivable Par 4’s – what is it guys you want two cracks at the Cherry, come on, you are Golfers, you relish the challenges, give the designers a chance to design a course or fairway at least.

Melvyn

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark,

There was no element of decision making at the old hole at Commonwealth. You had to hit a perfect fade with a driver, land it around the front of the green and run it on.
If you missed right you had a tough bunker shot or a pitch over the bunker but they were not shots one where you were likely to make a mess of and make 5. You just took 3 of the equation out if the pin was cut behind the bunker.
No one I saw ever contemplated taking a 4 or 5 iron and playing back - like many do at 15 at Victoria or 3 at Kingston Heath.
It made for a thrilling start to the round - it took a really good shot to get it onto the green - but for a short 4 finisher I would like to see more of a decision.
18 at Healesville is a good example, I think, of what I am talking about.
Would 15 at Victoria make a good finishing hole?
I think it would work well but in Australia - and Melbourne especially -  we are so conditioned to the long par four to finish.
It would be good for a course or two to break that mould.
18 at Portsea (par 5, 520 yards) is a good finisher because the drive is a free hit - and from there it is a terrific short par four with lots of choices to contemplate.

[Bart Bradley]

Ed:

Well said.  The 18th at Durban is another fun example that I have played.

Bart

[Tom ORourke]

I had a post recently on the tough 18th hole thread where I mentioned Llanerch in Philly. Their #18 is a par 4 that is under 300 yards. I was once playing there in US Am qualifying and I made a drive and wedge 3, one playing partner made a 4, the other holed out from 60 yards for 2. Crazy green, big tree right, stream left. You can lay up with a 4 iron and hit a wedge, or drive up close to the green. I have seen some strong players go right for the green. Worst case scenario for them is getting up and down from a bunker for birdie, but the green is very dynamic and a 3 is not guaranteed. A bad drive can be a quick 5.

[Tim Nugent]

Scoville in Decatur and Effingham Country Club in Illinois both finish with drivable 4's.

[Gary Slatter]

driveable par fours can be fun, but they also are bottle-necks that slow the pace of play.  TPC Scottsdale 17th always seemed to have fourballs waiting.
the 18th at the Old Course is not a driveable hole for most golfers.  Most do not get their drive to Granny's Wynd. 

[Sean Leary]

Olympic at Gold Mountain has a cool 305 yard finisher that wraps around water.  Doesn't really fit in with the rest of the course, but provides a fun finisher to the round.

Pete,

For many years that was the 9th hole until they switched the nines.....

[Matt Vandelac]

Melvyn-
I'm with you on the train left the station on the equipment debacle, equally disappointed at the ruling bodies (pick one) limp wristed approach, but have to disagree with you on the concept ot the reachable par 4 finisher.  It makes sense to me that golden age architects were more inclined to consider matches being match play events and many courses have finishers that are not too memorable.  A reachable par 4 finisher with plenty of risk/reward would get you thinking about it long before you get there, add drama and a chance for redemption.  Also, considering why and where to place water hazards on a course to me sometimes seems contrived (especially in Fla.) and forced, but could work well here as part of the equation.
Any argument about great holes in golf would include 10 at Riviera, and I'll throw in 7 at Ballyneal, too.  The yardage, IMO, currently would need to be about 280 with room to roll it on, busy trouble all around the green site, and strategic angles for lay up options.   

[Tyler Kearns]

Typically, the 18th green is surrounded by a number of other features and amenities, namely, the first and tenth tees, ninth green, practice green, short game facility, driving range tee, not to mention the clubhouse and parking lot. A drivable par-4 needs a little extra space at the green end to allow for the sprayed drive, which can travel further off-line than a traditional iron approach. Therefore, this lack of reachable par-4 finishing holes can be partially attributed to spatial factors.

TK

[Bill_McBride]

Ed:

There are lots of very short par-4 holes as finishers in Scotland.  In addition to The Old Course and North Berwick, there is Elie, and Prestwick.  The Eden Course at St. Andrews used to have a driveable 18th, too, before they commandeered it for a big practice range.

Elie?  There are a number of really fun short par 4s on that course (2,5,6,7,10,15) but I remember 18 as a pretty stout par 4. 

Ah, found the scorecard and it shows the 18th as 359 yards.  Uphill into the wind it seemed to play more like 400 yards.

[Ben Sims]

I think Palmetto's finisher is of the drivable length.  Risk reward only goes so far, until the risk is whacking a member in the head by the proshop.  Me?  I'll be pulling the 4 iron.

[Michael Goldstein]

Ed - you raise a very good point. I've just scoured my brain and can think of very few short par four finishers. One more to add to the list is the Royal Burgess in Edinburgh.  It is about 250 yards downhill, OOB right.

St Andrews is about 350 yards, and then you've got to roll it up the VoS so it's not drivable to most of us mere mortals.  Elie plays uphill so, even down a strong breeze, it wasn't reachable.

[Scott Warren]

I do not like drivable Par 4’s, where is the challenge.

So you dislike Golden Age (and OTM era) holes that took - in the era of their creation - a good shot with the longest club in a player's bag to reach the green?

Be they par threes or par fours... let's not get hooked up on par, the challenge to the golfer looking to make the lowest score possible is the same.

[Anton]

Leading up to the 2009 US Open there was talk of what to do with the 18th at Bethpage Black.  It was felt that the hole lacked the ingredients to be a great finish.  While it is an odd hole in that it doesnt match the other giant par 4s on the course, I have never felt it was not a nice finish.  At the Open it played 411 and was a drive and wedge.  An idea was raised to play from the existing tee across to the 18th green of the Red course, thus creating a 500+ yd finish.  That idea was scrapped but why not move up the tee and have the hole play at 300-320?  With all those deep faced bunkers the hole could play pretty cool giving a birdie chance at the finale.  But the USGA certainly doesnt want any birdie holes in championship golf. 

holes like 8 + 17 at PVGC would certainly make for a wild finish on any course.  Same goes for the 10th at Riv and the 7th at Ballyneal.

Good topic.