[David_Elvins]

The SLR really brings out the best in the warehouse, Kyle.

[Kevin Pallier]

I see the merit of this hole and played it differently three times just to test strategies out. However - never did I consider using driver.

I am upfront in that I am not a long hitter but twice I laid up with different clubs short of the big bunker - which left a blind SW/PW in.

On one occassion I hit a 5W into it and caught a horrible lie in the bunker which was virtually unplayable



I believe #12 encourages one moreso to go for it with a driver in hand and whilst #4 is a strong hole I believe the bunker is too big with too much sand in it.

[David_Elvins]

I see the merit of this hole and played it differently three times just to test strategies out.

If you were trying different strategies out, you should have tried hitting left of the bunker.  there is 40+ yards of fairway out there and it offers a very different approach angle to the green than playing short of the bunker.  

If you have hit 5 wood into the bunker that is very poor execution with the large amount of fairway to the left.

[Patrick Kiser]

David,

Wasn't this bunker coined "David's Love Den"? :-)

[Kevin Pallier]

If you have hit 5 wood into the bunker that is very poor execution with the large amount of fairway to the left.

David

Am not denying my shot was poor execution. I normally play with a draw and tried to play a shot off the middle of the bunker- I just happened to hit one straight.

[J Sadowsky]

2nd hole overview


Not only is the 2nd hole decent test of golf. It also proved to be a popular ground for grazing and mating… especially (not exclusively) for wallabies.

Isn't that weird to have the cart girl arrive so early on the course?

[John Mayhugh]

One visit to that bunker should be enough for anyone.  Recovery from it would be tough for me in the best of circumstances, but with all of that sand it's pretty much impossible. 

I realize that there is room left of the bunker, but on the tee it didn't feel like there was.  Smart play for me is to club to be short of the bunker, which means my next time there I'll try to hit the left side of the fairway even with or past the bunker.

[Carl Rogers]

Who did the drawings?  I like them as well as the pics!

[John Mayhugh]

Who did the drawings?  I like them as well as the pics!

Scott Warren mentioned this in reply #31.
Can I point out for those who are not aware, that the hole maps Kyle is posting are from the course guide, which was compiled by Ogilvy Clayton Design associate (and GCAer) Mike Cocking, who also did the books at Kingston Heath and Yarra Yarra, among other courses (www.golfrenderings.com.au)

[Tom_Doak]

I believe #12 encourages one moreso to go for it with a driver in hand and whilst #4 is a strong hole I believe the bunker is too big with too much sand in it.

Kevin:

Thanks for setting up one of my favorite quotes of all time.

When I was at the Open at Royal Troon in 1982, Gary Player was quoted in the press as saying the bunkers had too much sand in them.  The Scottish press naturally went to the greenkeeper to ask what he thought of that comment, and he replied:

"As far as I know it is pure sand all the way to China, so I don't know what we could do about it."

[David_Elvins]

If you have hit 5 wood into the bunker that is very poor execution with the large amount of fairway to the left.

David

Am not denying my shot was poor execution. I normally play with a draw and tried to play a shot off the middle of the bunker- I just happened to hit one straight.

Kev, 
My point was that to that pin you can aim 10-20 yards left of the bunker and hit a draw and be in a pretty good spot.  The hole has more 'options' than you thought it did!

[Bill Brightly]

David,

I agree that there is plenty of room to go left of the bunker, but hitting it there presents a whole different set of issues. Let's say I don't want to take on the bunker with driver and hit a good 3-wood left. Now I've got 35--65 yards, a half-shot that many golfers don't like, especially off of a tight fairway. It is going to be hard to get any spin on the ball, so holding the green is an issue. Putting is not really an option, especially if the pin is left, the large mound guards the entire left side of the green. I guess if the pin is on the right side you might be able to putt to the right bank and hope it kicks off the slope and comes back to the green...I'm not used to this kind of "long-range" putting, I wonder if any of the Aussies or Tom think this is a viable option?

However, if the pin is left and the back slope really works to feed the ball back (I don't see how the ball can stay on that slope) maybe I would be better off going long left, so that I have the shortest possible shot to hit the back slope. But as Kevin points out, now if you miss your tee shot right, you are guaranteed to end up in the bunker and you can say good-bye to par.

To me, this comes down to your philosophy on how to attack short par 4's. I hate screwing up these holes with my tee shot, so I would almost always choose a club that will leave me just short of the trap and try to make birdie with a good full wedge and my putter, and expect to make par almost every time. Now when it comes to the 12th hole, which we'll see later, my decision will be different because that hole sets up so much better for a fade, my natural shot, because the landing area seems much deeper than the "slot" that Hole 4 shows me. The second bunker is there to catch any ball that does not fade back to the 4th green. On 12, there is more friendly-looking slope that will help feed the ball back, and you'll maybe miss the green on the left. It is so cool that there are two somewhat similar driveable par 4's that lead me to different decisions!

[Sven Nilsen]

Put me down as one who really likes this hole, with one caveat.  In three plays, my tee shots ended up well left, short of the bunker and in the bunker.  Of the three, the drive I hit the best was the third, an almost bunt driver I was trying to run 10 yds left of the bunker, only to see it catch the contours and feed straight into the bottom of the massive pit.  I managed to hit the green from all three locations and made par each time (twice with realistic birdie chances), so no matter where you end up you're still in the hole (unless you plug in the face of the bunker).

My one complaint has to do with the contours that feed balls from the middle to the right and consequently into the bunker.  Especially when played into the wind, it seems like a low straight shot to the heart of the fairway should be rewarded. 

[Shane Gurnett]

If you are going to layup on the 4th, it needs to be well back near the 84 metre distance sprinkler (180m from the tee max), not anywhere near the bunker, especially if the pin is back left. The temptation however is to try to get the layup close to the bunker to shorten the second shot, but its a very difficult short pitch from there over the trap. A superb hole.

[Kevin Pallier]

I believe #12 encourages one moreso to go for it with a driver in hand and whilst #4 is a strong hole I believe the bunker is too big with too much sand in it.

Kevin:

Thanks for setting up one of my favorite quotes of all time.

When I was at the Open at Royal Troon in 1982, Gary Player was quoted in the press as saying the bunkers had too much sand in them.  The Scottish press naturally went to the greenkeeper to ask what he thought of that comment, and he replied:

"As far as I know it is pure sand all the way to China, so I don't know what we could do about it."

Tom

Each to their own - I like the hole but think the setup of the bunker isn't quite right. Having tee shot balls plug into the wall isn't what I would have thought was your original design intent of the hazard ?

[Kevin Pallier]

Kev, 
My point was that to that pin you can aim 10-20 yards left of the bunker and hit a draw and be in a pretty good spot.  The hole has more 'options' than you thought it did!

David

The neck is quite narrow down there in terms of a view to the green obviously the closer you go to the bunker. The further left you go the longer shot you have in. Anything further left is a blind pitch over a deep marram filled dune where many balls get lost. Of course one can play it any different number of ways. How do you normally attack it in your 14 odd plays ?

Do you think the bunker needs to be as big and as much sand in it to achieve the same purpose ?

[Tom_Doak]

I believe #12 encourages one moreso to go for it with a driver in hand and whilst #4 is a strong hole I believe the bunker is too big with too much sand in it.

Kevin:

Thanks for setting up one of my favorite quotes of all time.

When I was at the Open at Royal Troon in 1982, Gary Player was quoted in the press as saying the bunkers had too much sand in them.  The Scottish press naturally went to the greenkeeper to ask what he thought of that comment, and he replied:

"As far as I know it is pure sand all the way to China, so I don't know what we could do about it."

Tom

Each to their own - I like the hole but think the setup of the bunker isn't quite right. Having tee shot balls plug into the wall isn't what I would have thought was your original design intent of the hazard ?

Kevin:

I am just saying there's not much anybody could really do about it.  The sand is loose because it's a deep bunker and because it gets stirred up from too many players getting into it.  The big bunkers at Royal St. George's and St. Enodoc most likely have the same problem.

[Bill Brightly]

My one complaint has to do with the contours that feed balls from the middle to the right and consequently into the bunker.  Especially when played into the wind, it seems like a low straight shot to the heart of the fairway should be rewarded.  

Really, Sven? You chose an aggressive club that could reach the bunker, why complain that the slope of the hole made you pay the price? And the "middle of the fairway" you saw on the tee was not the "middle" once you picked out the driver, you had plenty of room left for that shot. Was that Sunday morning when the wind was light? I think you could have hit a full 4 iron or rescue club, knowing you'd get far less roll and never reach the sand.

I totally disagree that this hazard is too severe on this short hole. If the hole was longer than 370 meters or 400 yards, and the architect was forcing me to challenge the bunker, I might have a different opinion. But as mentioned above, a 180 yd shot off the tee stays short of the bunker and leaves you with a short iron, so anyone landing in that hazard was gambling on the tee. And if the hazard had water in it, not sand, it would be a far more severe penalty and no one would complain...

[Shane Gurnett]

Bill, one of the overlooked aspects of the layup option on 4 at Barnbougle is the required trajectory of the approach shot, which is significantly uphill, to a small target (esp if the pin is back left). If the decision is made to not try to carry the fairway bunker, especially into the prevailing wind, the last thing you want to be doing is hitting a 60 yard pitch shot high into the air over the cavernous bunker into the previaling wind to a tiny target. The easier approach shot is therefore played from well back from the bunker to right, where an 80-90 metre pitch can be speared more into the breeze with greater control, rather than a wishful waft with the lob wedge from 60 metres which could end up anywhere if the wind gets it.

[Brian Walshe]

KP,

I'm with you.  Bloody sand ruins many a good bunker.   

Brian

[Mark_F]

If the decision is made to not try to carry the fairway bunker, especially into the prevailing wind

I would surmise that this is a decision the vast, vast majority of the clientele are never going to have to make, Shane.
Rubbish hole.

[Kevin Pallier]

KP,

I'm with you.  "Too much" Bloody sand ruins many a good bunker.   

Brian

Fixed

[Sven Nilsen]

My one complaint has to do with the contours that feed balls from the middle to the right and consequently into the bunker.  Especially when played into the wind, it seems like a low straight shot to the heart of the fairway should be rewarded.  

Really, Sven? You chose an aggressive club that could reach the bunker, why complain that the slope of the hole made you pay the price? And the "middle of the fairway" you saw on the tee was not the "middle" once you picked out the driver, you had plenty of room left for that shot. Was that Sunday morning when the wind was light? I think you could have hit a full 4 iron or rescue club, knowing you'd get far less roll and never reach the sand.

Bill:

My bunt driver may be the equal of your 4 iron or rescue club.  I thought I was playing a conservative shot away from the bunker, a low, hooking, running shot that started left of the left edge of the bunker and was moving towards the "middle" of the fairway.  It was indeed on Sunday morning, and I was trying a shot that was different from my previous two drives on the hole.  I now know that for me there are only two plays, hit long and left flirting with the rough line or short of the bunker and face the blind approach.  My point was that the actual size of the hazard is greater than its already pretty significant width (see the pictures above), a fact that is not evident from the tee and only learned by trying the shot I mentioned (after playing the hole twice with 6 other players I had not seen a single ball catch that slope and turn right the way mine did).  In effect, that bunker can punish those who play aggressively (trying to drive the green and failing to make the carry) and those who play conservatively (trying to run a ball by the bunker on a line outside of its visual parameters). 

There were a few bunkers on the course that were surrounded by contours that served to gather shots that initially looked like they would be safe.  The slope to the right of the center line bunker on 15 is one spot, as well as the fairway bunker on 11 are two that come to mind.  Its a feature i like, one that gets appreciated after repeated plays.  However, on 4, with the limited options for most players off the tee, I was surprised this type of shot was not rewarded.  Now I know.

With regards to the amount of sand in that bunker, I found the shot from the flat area to be manageable.  It definitely seemed that the higher up the face you were the more likely you were to plug, and pay the price for having tried and failed at an aggressive play off the tee.

[Bill Brightly]

Sven,

As I recall, the fairway short of the bunker is effectively split in half, a higher shelf on the left and a lower shelf on the right. Your ball obviously caught the slope that divides these two halves, and fed it into the bunker. So I don't think your choice of shots was conservative, rather it was moderatelty aggressive, you were trying to get past the trap. I think that slope is too severe to hold any draw (maybe a hot hook wont feed down...) so your effective landing zone was cut in half, and I think your target needed to be 20 yards left of what appears to be the middle.


Shane,

I agree 100%, I would almost always choose to lay back and leave myself with a full shot. However, if I get to play there again and the pin is back left, I think I will go long left off the tee and knock something into the back slope, letting the ball feed back to the pin. I think that gives me a huge target in any type of wind conditions. I think any shot that carries the mound and lands on the front of the green, pin high, on the back of the green, or 5-10 yards over the green, will end up within 20 feet of the cup.

[Brett_Morrissy]

I still vividly recall the first time I seen this hole early one morning - jaw dropping from the tee and so much fun, IMO has many options right thru the bag, the only option unavailable cmes at a carry distance of 200m - if you cannot fly it that far, then a shot to the green is off the cards, but I do not think that limits 'most' of the clientele.

In benign conditions I will hit 5w to left side or 4i layup to bunker (Sven, taking out the centreline ridge potentially kicking your ball into the bunker), downwind I will have a crack, mates I play with a big hitters and always hit Driver and sometimes hit 3w onto the green. One important point that is always in my mind, particularly from the bottom deck, is that I must add two clubs for the shot up the hill and then extra for the breeze if into it - so if I am down at the 85m sprinkler head, that means I am hitting a 105m shot, no matter where the pin is cut, and if it is a 2-3 club breeze then that makes it a 125-135m shot - that is a challenging thing to get your head around when you are looking up this cavernous awesome bunker sand flash in front of you. Exciting.

and the shot from the left, if the pin is left, requires great distance control and judgement, becuase too long or short is trouble - all these thoughts in your head - they do not happen on boring, flat parkland golf.


One of my favourtie short p4's in the world.

Kyle - nice management of the thread, letting the great holes 'have some time'

bm

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