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Steve_ Shaffer

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The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona New
« on: March 10, 2011, 11:19:03 PM »
Good review by AZ Avid golfer magazine.Rankings are not neceassarily  by golf architecture but by the "experience." Some surprises:

!. Quintero no longer has an initiation fee. At one time, it was close to six figures.
2. Not really a surprise, but some clubs have drastically cut intiation fees or have established "market pricing."
3. As Matt Ward is a big fan of Whisper Rock, it is not surprising that WR is rated as "Best Overall Golf Club"
4. TGC Scottsdale dramatically cut the initiation fee from sixfigures to 25K.

Here is the article:

no longer available
« Last Edit: May 02, 2011, 09:07:49 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Carl Nichols

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2011, 11:23:01 PM »
Cart Girl of the month?

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2011, 11:24:23 PM »
Carl,

It's a very comprehensive magazine.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

PThomas

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2011, 11:27:38 PM »
Cart Girl of the month?

one of them said her favorite food is....pickles.....
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Mark Saltzman

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2011, 02:13:38 AM »
Cart Girl of the month?

one of them said her favorite food is....pickles.....

...Worked for Snooki... She's making 7 figures...

Bruce Leland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2011, 10:03:31 AM »
Crossed several pick up lines off my list.  Seriously??
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Terry Lavin

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2011, 11:12:33 AM »
Missed the cart girl stuff, but the article about the private golf scene is great.  They break it down by cost, which is convenient and interesting to compare.  They have lists for the best "golf" club, the best "country club" and the best "family" club, along with the best bargain clubs.  Needless to say, with all of the insane overbuilding that had gone on in Arizona, there's plenty of opportunities in every category.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2011, 11:31:37 AM »
Terry,

Finally someone has responded with an intelligent message.Thanks. The article is probaly the most comprehensive one that I've seen on this topic about any city. They did miss one category- "Most Fun Course to Play." IMO Blackstone wins hands down.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matt_Ward

Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2011, 11:38:05 AM »
Steve:

Good article but it really soft pedals the potential crash elements in the previous go-go golf scene that is AZ -- especially in and around the core area of Maricopa County.

I expect to see more slashing promotions and when that inevitably happens you get a cannibalism style that says plenty of people are on the edge and will either go under -- have new owners -- or a different style of service (e.g. former privates going to semi-private, etc, etc).

I'd be curious to know how all the pre-existing players can stay afloat -- the golf contraction situation is one the players within the golf industry are loathe to speak about.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2011, 11:50:20 AM »
Matt,

Bill Huffman, the former golf writer for The Arizona Republic, has a new website:

http://arizonagolfauthority.com


He also writes for the AZ Golf Ass'n:



http://www.azgolf.org/livelearnplay/articles.asp?Category=36&CategoryID=4&SubCategory=6


He did write an article that I'm trying to find about some private clubs closing because of high cost of water.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Matt_Ward

Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2011, 03:18:07 PM »
Steve:

Bill H is the leading figure in knowing about golf in AZ -- I just see the dynamics of what has been previously in golf course development in and around Maricopa County will need to change in a big time way. Far too many courses and far too few players -- if the marketplace lost 15-20% of the existing courses - no doubt that's quite tough to swallow for many -- those remaining would be a in far better shape to be successful -- financially and otherwise.

The folks within the golf industry often see things through fogged glasses and denial and soft awareness lies at the heart of the issue in my mind.

Rick Shefchik

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2011, 03:45:02 PM »
Steve:

Bill H is the leading figure in knowing about golf in AZ -- I just see the dynamics of what has been previously in golf course development in and around Maricopa County will need to change in a big time way. Far too many courses and far too few players -- if the marketplace lost 15-20% of the existing courses - no doubt that's quite tough to swallow for many -- those remaining would be a in far better shape to be successful -- financially and otherwise.

The folks within the golf industry often see things through fogged glasses and denial and soft awareness lies at the heart of the issue in my mind.

If 15-20 percent of the courses in the Arizona market went belly up, what would become of the land? Maybe some of it is strategically enough located to be developed, but I'm guessing most of it isn't. The one industry doing worse than golf in Arizona is housing. If there's no logical alternative use for the land these courses are built on, it seems like they are destined to remain golf courses -- maybe poorly maintained courses with lousy customer service, but courses nonetheless.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

J Sadowsky

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2011, 04:38:32 PM »
Desert Mountain is $140k initiation (down from $350k) and TWENTY FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS PER YEAR in dues?  ::shakes head::

Carl Nichols

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2011, 04:51:38 PM »
Desert Mountain is $140k initiation (down from $350k) and TWENTY FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS PER YEAR in dues?  ::shakes head::

I didn't read the article that way; I read the $24,000 as representing the per-course amount of the initiation (i.e., $140,000 divided by 6 is approximately $24,000).   

Terry Lavin

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2011, 04:56:03 PM »
I know some members at Desert Mountain.  They each were asked to kick in $16K to buy the club back from the developers.  They also had their dues raised several hundred dollars a month, but it's not $2K a month.  Just looking at the unbelievable amount of real estate involved, it looks like a smart investment for the members.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Matt_Ward

Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2011, 02:09:17 AM »
Rick:

Read your last post -- a few comments to expand upon my original statement.

Having courses go under is a plus in the long run for the ailing golf industry. Too many apologists exist within the hierarchy of the golf industry and the spin cycle is full of stories about how the next golf surge is just around the corner. This is the same misinformation that came from a few years ago when the "independent" NGF stated that the USA would need a course per day to open for several years to handle the "surge" in players.

You ask what would happen to the land ?

Like anything else -- some of it would sit vacant -- but likely much of it would go to high bidders for other purposes.

The best part of the removal of 15-20% of the golf inventory is that the "infection" of those slowly fading into the sunset would have LESS of an impact than it does now. The infection of those failing can spread to others. How? Those sliding into oblivion will often discount to the max in order to get players. If the sound courses follow suit the spiral will effect many and result in more imbalances on the cash flow side.

The golf industry needs to see the real long terms fallot because if yone doesn't add players then it stands to reason one needs to cut down the amount of courses that are failing to really hold their own.

Anthony Butler

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2011, 11:03:56 PM »
Crossed several pick up lines off my list.  Seriously??

George Clooney would be lucky to get a phone number after some of these lines... whatever happened to "Hi, I'm __________"?
Next!

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2011, 12:43:36 AM »
Matt,

Here is the Bill Huffman article from AZ AVid Golfer:

By Bill Huffman : Published for AG December   
The future of AZ golf
 
“There are at least a half dozen courses right now that will close in the next two years and become something else, like houses.” – Tom Patrick
 
A recent study by the National Golf Foundation entitled, “The Future of Golf Participation in America: 2010-2020,” got me thinking about what the next decade holds for Arizona. Even though desert golf has done better recently than most areas of the country, and even though the NGF says golf, in general, will remain “flat” for the next 10 years, where are we headed?

Trust me, these are tricky times we live – and play golf – in.

Just look at the past, or ever since Arizona became one of the top five golf destinations in the world. In every way our High Sonoran stock has risen and fallen like the market itself.  Just check out the last three decades and you’ll plainly see that roller-coaster pattern, as the 1980s were a bust, the 1990s a boom and the 2000s a bit of both.

So what’s in the crystal ball? For that I turn to my personal golf swami, Tom Patrick, a.k.a. the “E.F. Hutton of Arizona golf.” Unlike a lot of his peers, the former founder of the Golf Industry Association and ex-president of SunCor Golf always tells it like it is.

Plus, Patrick has seen both sides of the fence, as he was a “fixer” in the 1980s with his Sunwest Golf, repairing financial problems at places like Estancia, Scottsdale Country Club and Tatum Ranch, while also building high-end courses in the 1990s like SunRidge Canyon, StoneRidge and The Sanctuary. But a year ago, with one year left in the schizophrenic-like 2000s, Patrick had had enough and retired.

“It’s been a year, and I haven’t done a thing except spend time with my nine grandchildren,” Patrick said. “I promised my wife that I wouldn’t get back into golf for at least a year and that deadline is up Dec. 22…

“Lately, I’ve had some guys call me who wanted to start up another golf management company.  And, truthfully, I’ve been thinking about it.”

Yes, it’s a tough habit to kick even if Arizona’s golf industry has witnessed 17 foreclosures in the last few years. The amazing part of that scenario is that all 17 are still up and running.

According to Patrick, those BK courses are actually in better shape than many that have never closed their doors.

“If they bought it for $1 million or $2 million, and it originally cost $10 million or $12 million, they aren’t in it at the same price and that allows them to make ends meet,” Patrick noted. “Still, how much would you pay to lose money, because a lot of them are never going to be profitable.”

Patrick, who once told me Arizona golf was overbuilt by 20 courses, now says it’s more like 60. And while most of Arizona’s 360-some have remained open even in tough times, that’s about to change, too.

“There are at least a half dozen courses right now that will close in the next two years and become something else, like houses,” Patrick said. “I’d give you the names, but you’d publish them.”

Patrick also predicted that golf course properties would continue to plummet in value, like the $2.6 million that was paid recently to purchase SunRidge Canyon out of receivership.

“Yeah, we built that course for $10 million, including the clubhouse, simply because I knew how to build them for a lot less than everybody else,” he said with obvious pride.

Patrick also warned of the local market collapsing, pointing out that in the past two years the Arizona resident had been courted heavily in an effort to offset the lack of tourist golf. His point being that the state’s $1 billion budget shortfall was going to claim a lot of jobs and ultimately discretionary income that goes toward golf.

“But the biggest problem staring us smack in the face is water. No question,” he said. “With Lake Mead in the early stages of a drought that is expected to peak by 2020, and with the potential for CAP water and effluent (non-potable water) to skyrocket, that’s the No. 1 problem facing Arizona golf that has yet to be resolved.”

Like I said, these are tricky times.  Good thing we’ve got wonderful weather, a pristine portfolio of courses and Tom Patrick on our side.


Bill Huffman has covered golf in Arizona for 25 years and wrote the book “Arizona’s Greatest Golf Courses.’’ He can be heard on Backspin The Golf Show on XTRA Sports 910 every Wednesday (6-7 p.m.) and Saturday (9-11 a.m.).

 
 
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Dave Givnish

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2011, 12:12:49 PM »
Matt's comments are on point.  I've got some perspective on this as a Board member and membership guy at one of the area clubs.

Contraction at the private club level isn't going to happen, at least not in the 30-40 course range that everyone seems to think is necessary.  There are several clubs that have opened their doors to public play to get revenue.  This has to put pressure on the margins for the "club for a day" facilities that aren't in that tier of courses that get included in the 4 or 5 round trip for the average visitor.  I can't see this changing until there is a better use for the land.  That's going to take a while in areas like Chandler, Peoria, and most of Phoenix.  Contraction is probably more likely at the public level but I don't think that I could name more than one course that has closed completely over the last 5 years.

We need to look at how we maintain our courses to keep costs under control.  Water costs are a big part of the budget for all but one or two clubs that can irrigate from ground water.  Expect to see changes in irrigation techniques or reductions in the amount of irrigated turf. Green grass is needed here to sell memberships and tee times, so don't expect over-seeding to go away until the cities pull the plug on water.  I like the USGA approach of advocating firm and fast conditions, but most of the courses here built in the last 15 years have USGA spec greens that seem to need a lot of water.  Our club recently took steps to go firm and fast. The early results are promising.  We expect to see about 20% lower maintenance costs this year.

What I don't understand yet is that a number of clubs have lowered their initiation fees and increased their dues at the same time.   

Rick Shefchik

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Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2011, 12:22:45 PM »

“There are at least a half dozen courses right now that will close in the next two years and become something else, like houses,” Patrick said. “I’d give you the names, but you’d publish them.”



I still don't get this. Is anybody building houses in Arizona now?
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Matt_Ward

Re: The Private Club Scene in Phoenix, Arizona
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2011, 01:03:12 PM »
Steve / Dave, et al:

Sadly, too many clubs are "holding on" when in reality they are at critical levels right now. The discounting elements only serve to weaken the otherwise stronger clubs because they feel compelled to match what the others are doing.

The AZ golf market would be better served in seeing at minimum 10% of the total courses fade into the sunset. The result would strengthen those that remain. Keep in mind this -- Marlboro never discounts their flagship brand -- once you discount the net result is a never ending chase for bargain hunters.

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