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PThomas

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #100 on: March 14, 2011, 09:53:19 AM »
the new G Digest rankings are due out this year, yes?  anybody know when?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Ken Fry

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #101 on: March 14, 2011, 10:34:55 AM »
Ken,

I wasn't suggesting you were being a fan boy -- I get the fact that you like Ballyhack and appreciate it. I was referring to the proclivity of some posters here on GCA to play up their own status by touting certain courses.

As for Ballyhack, if a course is supposed to be playable, it doesn't make any sense to me to make the opening tee shot (uphill, into the morning sun, as I recall) the longest, hardest forced carry on the whole golf course. That's one of many routing issues, esp. on the front nine, where the first eight holes looked, felt and played as if they had been squeezed in to the land.

Brad,

Was this directed at Kevin or me?

I never got the feeling Ballyhack was "squeezed" into anything.  What I find interesting is your comment about the opening tee shot.  Granted all players must carry the ravine, but the carry only looks intimidating.  Even from the back tees I don't feel the carry is overly demanding.  Once reaching the fairway, players will notice the uphill slope is not nearly as severe as it looks from the tee and the landing area is quite large.  I found a similar sensation from the tee on hole #11.  The slope looks extremely severe and very distant but not nearly so when reaching the landing area.  I believe Lester put many visual deceptions into the design which I enjoyed.  Others will not.

Ken

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #102 on: March 14, 2011, 10:50:39 AM »
the new G Digest rankings are due out this year, yes?  anybody know when?

Paul,

Why is the current crop of raters, you included, unable to discuss your own ratings?  There must be at least one result that does not compare favorably to your submitted numerical obfuscation. 

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #103 on: March 14, 2011, 11:48:13 AM »
Ken,

I wasn't suggesting you were being a fan boy -- I get the fact that you like Ballyhack and appreciate it. I was referring to the proclivity of some posters here on GCA to play up their own status by touting certain courses.

As for Ballyhack, if a course is supposed to be playable, it doesn't make any sense to me to make the opening tee shot (uphill, into the morning sun, as I recall) the longest, hardest forced carry on the whole golf course. That's one of many routing issues, esp. on the front nine, where the first eight holes looked, felt and played as if they had been squeezed in to the land.

Brad,

Was this directed at Kevin or me?

I never got the feeling Ballyhack was "squeezed" into anything.  What I find interesting is your comment about the opening tee shot.  Granted all players must carry the ravine, but the carry only looks intimidating.  Even from the back tees I don't feel the carry is overly demanding.  Once reaching the fairway, players will notice the uphill slope is not nearly as severe as it looks from the tee and the landing area is quite large.  I found a similar sensation from the tee on hole #11.  The slope looks extremely severe and very distant but not nearly so when reaching the landing area.  I believe Lester put many visual deceptions into the design which I enjoyed.  Others will not.

Ken

Ken - I think that was meant for me. 

However, your response was similar to what I would have written.  Normally, I'm not a big fan of "forced carries", especially if they become a repetitive theme or consistently demand an "upper echelon" distance (#1 plays only 399 from the Tips).  I didn't get that negative sense at BH.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #104 on: March 14, 2011, 12:50:24 PM »
Ken,

I wasn't suggesting you were being a fan boy -- I get the fact that you like Ballyhack and appreciate it. I was referring to the proclivity of some posters here on GCA to play up their own status by touting certain courses.

As for Ballyhack, if a course is supposed to be playable, it doesn't make any sense to me to make the opening tee shot (uphill, into the morning sun, as I recall) the longest, hardest forced carry on the whole golf course. That's one of many routing issues, esp. on the front nine, where the first eight holes looked, felt and played as if they had been squeezed in to the land.

Brad,

Just to clarify, have you been to Ballyhack?  In response 44, you indicated "I have not written a Raters Notebook on Ballyhack so I can't point you to a detailed explanation of my own judgments."  I interpreted that as meaning you hadn't been there yet, but your last paragraph reads as if you have (or were you giving a summary of perceptions you noted from the submitted ratings?).

Regardless, your feedback gives me some insight into what may have contributed to the lower average ranking.  With the course being severe (both in terrain and in difficulty), perhaps the course is a little more polarizing than I thought.  A few layouts in Western New York are golf courses in summer / ski lodges in winter, so severe terrain is something I'm used to and I enjoy the additional elements presented by elevation change (i.e. aesthetics / distance challenges / partial blindness).  Perhaps Tom Doak was on to something when he pointed out the relative rankings of courses in the "severe" genre.

Regarding the "squeezed" feel of the front nine, I personally wouldn't have used that adjective based on my experience.  I suppose the 6th fairway through 8th green might have felt tighter as the course winds through the lowlands during that stretch.  However, I think that's only a "relative" sensation compared to the very open feel of the remainder of the course.

Once again, Brad, I appreciate you taking the time to offer your insight.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #105 on: March 14, 2011, 01:11:03 PM »

It would be interesting to see the standard deviations of the ratings just as much as it was to see the second hundred ratings.  I think this would show us more about the psychology of the raters. I wonder if GW would let a study of the raters be done. To be clear, a truly scientific study done from an attitude of trying to learn about how raters think and why, is what I would propose. (somewhat an academic approach I suppose but guilty as charged)

Brad

Brad,

I like your thoughts, but I think the phrase "study of the raters" may raise some images of "lab rat research."  It would be difficult to understand the "psychology" of a large group of individuals, but your end goal of trying to learn "how raters think and why" is something I think all people would enjoy (at least here).  I'm always more interested in qualitative reviews than pure quantitative ratings.

Short of being able to get full qualitative insight, I would also be fascinated to see the standard deviations of the course ratings.  I think seeing a course's "beta" would give some insight into the nature of the course beyond the straight "average."  A ranking of the "Most Polarizing" courses would be very interesting to see.

Jim Franklin

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #106 on: March 14, 2011, 01:16:36 PM »
Paul -

GD's come out next month. I am anxious to see what happened over the past two years.
Mr Hurricane

Ed Oden

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #107 on: March 14, 2011, 01:23:27 PM »
In all the discussion in this thread, the most intriguing comment was, does Whistling Straits belong as number 4 from the perspective of being consistent within the GW universe. My vote would be, it is ranked higher than it deserves.

Ran started a thread last year questioning Golfweek's high ranking of Whistling Straits.  Here is my unsupportable theory...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45541.msg999272.html#msg999272

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #108 on: March 14, 2011, 01:48:09 PM »
There is another, seems annual, rater camp coming up at the end of May at Whistling Straits.  I'd like to see how this course would fare if they threw out the votes of the couples.  I guess it is one hell of a resort. I do look forward to reading a review on redanman.com as I see he and his wife are shelling out the big bucks to attend this event.  I don't know why, but this makes me very happy.  Are gratuities included?

A link to the event, note all the women panelists attending:

http://golfweek.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/golfweek9/event/golfweek930/index.htm

Bart Bradley

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #109 on: March 14, 2011, 02:00:52 PM »
In all the discussion in this thread, the most intriguing comment was, does Whistling Straits belong as number 4 from the perspective of being consistent within the GW universe. My vote would be, it is ranked higher than it deserves.

Ran started a thread last year questioning Golfweek's high ranking of Whistling Straits.  Here is my unsupportable theory...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45541.msg999272.html#msg999272

Ed:

I think your theory has significant merit.  Context is everything. 

Shivas, I don't get your visceral negative reaction to the place.  I agree wholeheartedly that the place is overrated, but it makes for a pleasant outdoor experience at the very least.

Here is my review of the course, written just before the PGA for gca.com :  http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45417.0.html

For reference and disclosure, I am a Golfweek rater and rate 15 modern courses ahead of Whistling Straits and there are a number of modern courses that I have yet to see that I very well may rate higher.  I do think that over time, Whistling Straits will fall in the rankings....

Bart

Keith OHalloran

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #110 on: March 14, 2011, 02:13:24 PM »
How many courses does each category have? And how many courses in each category had the required 15 ballots to qualify for a rating?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #111 on: March 14, 2011, 02:31:31 PM »
How many courses does each category have? And how many courses in each category had the required 15 ballots to qualify for a rating?

Golfweek currently has around 1800 nominated courses from which to select.  Obviously many courses are nominated for nefarious reasons.  To give you an example, both Norwood Hills and Glen Echo in St. Louis are nominated and open for rater play.  I mean really, why?

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #112 on: March 14, 2011, 02:34:59 PM »
Oops, I just remembered.  Norwood Hills and Glen Echo are ten minutes from the airport.  Perfect.

David Kelly

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #113 on: March 14, 2011, 04:10:21 PM »
There is another, seems annual, rater camp coming up at the end of May at Whistling Straits.  I'd like to see how this course would fare if they threw out the votes of the couples.  I guess it is one hell of a resort. I do look forward to reading a review on redanman.com as I see he and his wife are shelling out the big bucks to attend this event.  I don't know why, but this makes me very happy.  Are gratuities included?

A link to the event, note all the women panelists attending:

http://golfweek.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/golfweek9/event/golfweek930/index.htm

I count 3 women out of 27.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Norbert P

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #114 on: March 14, 2011, 04:15:29 PM »
  Is what follows the current criterion for the Golfweek system?

 Rater’s Notebook
1. Ease and intimacy of routing

2. Quality of feature shaping

3. Natural setting and overall land plan

4. Interest of greens and surrounding chipping contours

5. Variety and memorability of par 3s

6. Variety and memorability of par 4s

7. Variety and memorability of par 5s

8. Basic conditioning

9. Landscape and tree management

10. “Walk in the park" test

Overall vote: Overall vote is additive, rather than a total effect.


*********************************************************



Is there a synopsis publication of what some of these mean.  E.g. "A walk in the park" ?


Also, is it true that if a rater does not go to at least two of the organized rating retreats per year, they are released from the GW reters group?

Is the esteemed Jeff Shelley been reinstated as a rater again?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 04:20:01 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Lester George

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #115 on: March 14, 2011, 04:21:06 PM »
Gentlemen,

It is amazing that some of the things said here about Ballyhack could be so far off base and misleading.  There are a few assumptions here that warrant clarification.  

Just for the record:  

The carry distance for the "reasonably long ravine" on the first hole is

A=226 yards
B=170 yards
C=148 yards
D=112 yards
E=78 yards

The hole is only 400 yards long.  The fairway is 50 to 55 yards wide.  Most people hit 3 wood, 9 iron.

The hole plays due NORTH, not into the sun.  

The routing of the front nine is on 159 acres, not sure how that is crowded.

The routing for the back nine is on 189 acres

It is fine to like or dislike any course, but I believe getting the facts right are imperative to properly rating it.

Lester



Bill_McBride

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #116 on: March 14, 2011, 04:26:07 PM »
Gentlemen,

It is amazing that some of the things said here about Ballyhack could be so far off base and misleading.  There are a few assumptions here that warrant clarification.  

Just for the record:  

The carry distance for the "reasonably long ravine" on the first hole is

A=226 yards
B=170 yards
C=148 yards
D=112 yards
E=78 yards

The hole is only 400 yards long.  The fairway is 50 to 55 yards wide.  Most people hit 3 wood, 9 iron.

The hole plays due NORTH, not into the sun.  

The routing of the front nine is on 159 acres, not sure how that is crowded.

The routing for the back nine is on 189 acres

It is fine to like or dislike any course, but I believe getting the facts right are imperative to properly rating it.

Lester




Lester, your Dixie Cup gang will get this all sorted out this October!

And for me it will be the B or C tee on #1, thank you!

Really looking forward to Ballyhack, there are a lot of cool looking holes there.

Wade Whitehead

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #117 on: March 14, 2011, 04:35:31 PM »
As for Ballyhack, if a course is supposed to be playable, it doesn't make any sense to me to make the opening tee shot (uphill, into the morning sun, as I recall) the longest, hardest forced carry on the whole golf course. That's one of many routing issues, esp. on the front nine, where the first eight holes looked, felt and played as if they had been squeezed in to the land.

I respectfully disagree.

I defy anyone to walk to the second tee at Ballyhack and describe the hole as squeezed.  It's a curious concept that has never once entered my mind or any conversation I've ever had about the place.

Ballyhack is meant to be played from the proper tee.  The criticism of the opening tee shot, apart from its inaccuracies (it's not into the sun and it isn't really uphill), is a common gripe from people who put the peg down too far back.

The longest, hardest carry on the course is from 16 tee anyway.

WW

Carl Rogers

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #118 on: March 14, 2011, 04:59:35 PM »
As for Ballyhack, if a course is supposed to be playable, it doesn't make any sense to me to make the opening tee shot (uphill, into the morning sun, as I recall) the longest, hardest forced carry on the whole golf course. That's one of many routing issues, esp. on the front nine, where the first eight holes looked, felt and played as if they had been squeezed in to the land.

I respectfully disagree.

I defy anyone to walk to the second tee at Ballyhack and describe the hole as squeezed.  It's a curious concept that has never once entered my mind or any conversation I've ever had about the place.

Ballyhack is meant to be played from the proper tee.  The criticism of the opening tee shot, apart from its inaccuracies (it's not into the sun and it isn't really uphill), is a common gripe from people who put the peg down too far back.

The longest, hardest carry on the course is from 16 tee anyway.

WW
I and Scott Weersing on this site have played Ballyhack once as Lester's guest.  Thank you again, Lester.  We both enjoyed it a lot. 

I want to confirm Mr. Whitehead's comments.  Ballyhack does require that you play from the correct tees.  However, it is not a good beginner's course as it has too many no go areas even with some generous fairway width.  It is definitely a cart course or you need a mountain goat as a caddy and a rest between holes.  The practice range is excellent.

The first hole is not all that much up hill as the tee shot is elevated, then plunges sharply and then more rises sharply than it appears.  The second has a lot of tee shot options around or over the centerline bunker but is not tight.  The double green on the back nine is spectacular.

What I am really left with is the scale of the landscape contrast between the nines.

Kevin Lynch

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #119 on: March 14, 2011, 05:15:14 PM »

Lester, your Dixie Cup gang will get this all sorted out this October!

And for me it will be the B or C tee on #1, thank you!

Really looking forward to Ballyhack, there are a lot of cool looking holes there.

Bill - Exactly the point on tee selection.  My feeling is that if you sign up to play a 7,300 Yard set of tees, you probably shouldn't be complaining about a 226 yard carry.  But the fact that the forced carry drops significantly (170 yards) to the 6,750 set of tees gives some recognition that some may want to play that distance without being huge off the tee.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #120 on: March 14, 2011, 05:27:33 PM »
Nick-nack, Ballyhack
Give a rater a bone
Put him on the up tees, and
He will take his ball and go home.

David Kelly

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #121 on: March 14, 2011, 05:55:32 PM »

Also, is it true that if a rater does not go to at least two of the organized rating retreats per year, they are released from the GW reters group?

It is not true.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #122 on: March 14, 2011, 06:20:43 PM »
Tony Nysse,

Hard to believe that The Bear's Club and McArthur are rated ahead of Pine Tree.

One has to wonder, with Pine Tree once being rated # 27, and there being no substantive changes to Pine Tree, how does it go to # 159 ?

Sean Leary

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #123 on: March 14, 2011, 07:18:40 PM »
I was a little surprised Irish Creek didn't make the top 200 modern, especially since Brad rated it so highly himself. Perhaps it didn't get enough votes? Heard it is excellent.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #124 on: March 14, 2011, 07:25:45 PM »
I was a little surprised Irish Creek didn't make the top 200 modern, especially since Brad rated it so highly himself. Perhaps it didn't get enough votes? Heard it is excellent.

What and where is Irish Creek?

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