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Kevin Lynch

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #75 on: March 13, 2011, 12:04:57 AM »
I always find it interesting and educational to have discussions like this one on Ballyhack.  Many of you seem to support Ballyhack as being a top tier course, while the Golfweek panel didn't rate it high enough to make their lists.  I have no idea who is "right", as I haven't played it.  However, I am intrigued enough to reserach it a little bit. 


Mac,

Follow up on your intrigue, if you ever get the chance.  I'm very confident you won't be disappointed.

JC Jones

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Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #76 on: March 13, 2011, 03:01:14 PM »

Kingsley Club takes a big drop and Arcadia Bluffs makes a big jump....  Hmmmm.....


This is ridiculous.  I am making a commitment to play Arcadia Bluffs this summer while I am up there to see if it has any more merit than the last time I played it.  If I walk away thinking it is worthy of a Top 100 ranking I will post it and gladly eat the crow publicly.

I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #77 on: March 13, 2011, 05:45:22 PM »
  Golfweek certainly has fine taste in their photo selection.      

      Photo by Thorsnes (?)

 #99 Wine Valley Golf Club in Walla Walla, Washington



 Salute to Tyler D., Kris B and the maintenance crew for the continuing great effort and results.  

  Firm, fast and furious turf conditions live on.


  








« Last Edit: March 13, 2011, 05:47:35 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #78 on: March 13, 2011, 07:26:17 PM »

Kingsley Club takes a big drop and Arcadia Bluffs makes a big jump....  Hmmmm.....


This is ridiculous.  I am making a commitment to play Arcadia Bluffs this summer while I am up there to see if it has any more merit than the last time I played it.  If I walk away thinking it is worthy of a Top 100 ranking I will post it and gladly eat the crow publicly.



JC,

Over the last handful of years, I've been up to play both courses a number of times.

No offense to Warren Henderson but each time I've left Arcadia Bluffs I've left unsatisfied.  The views are spectacular.  The mounding across the property is massive and obviously manufactured.  While the course has tended to play a bit firmer the last few times I've played, running shots don't seem to work there.  With all that said, the groups I've taken up there have absolutely loved the experience.  Anytime I mention Arcadia is part of the trip, guys are cheering.  So be it, it's just not for me.

On the other side, I'm one of those that loves all there is about Kingsley.  I love the course and how Mike DeVries routed it, how Dan Lucas and his crew condition it, how David Plassman and Brian Conklin operate it and the atmosphere around the place.  I believe everyone on this DG has one place that touches them in this way, whether it's their first project as an architect, first course as a head supt., a special club to be a member of, etc.  Kingsley is a place I just "get."  I know there are a lot of people that don't get it and that tends to show in the rankings at times.

The group I take up to Northern Michigan didn't get Kingsley much their first trip around because it wasn't what they were use to.  With a little coaching, now they love the place.

I don't have to agree with everyone's tastes but I understand why some courses strike certain nerves with people when others don't.

Ken

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2011, 07:37:20 PM »
I have not seen Ballyhack, but from all the pictures it seems to be a fairly severe course.  Here are the rankings for some others in the same general category:

141 - Tetherow
151 - Stone Eagle
157 - Primland
174 - Wolf Creek
189 - Erin Hills
NR  - Tobacco Road
NR  - Dismal River

Could it be that the GOLFWEEK panel just doesn't like that sort of golf? 

And if so, isn't the real outlier not Ballyhack or Tobacco Road, but Whistling Straits at #4 ?

Matt_Ward

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2011, 07:45:51 PM »
Tom:

I think it would serve GW or any other mag to present a much richer diverse listing of courses.

You did that with your 31 best in CG -- very much different and not just adding up more and more of the same
type of courses.

Your thoughts ?

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #81 on: March 13, 2011, 07:54:18 PM »
Matt - If you redid any of these and picked only one from each arch it would be a completely different animal... just not a ranking

Matt_Ward

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #82 on: March 13, 2011, 07:56:17 PM »
Jaeger:

Too often ratings tend to go for the overkill -- they simply post the same narrow band of courses of a similar type.

I think it would be good to see something broader than a ratings but a richer mixture which Tom D did in his preamble in CG.

Gave me real insight into his thinking process and how elastic he was.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #83 on: March 13, 2011, 08:03:44 PM »
Tom:

I think it would serve GW or any other mag to present a much richer diverse listing of courses.

You did that with your 31 best in CG -- very much different and not just adding up more and more of the same
type of courses.

Your thoughts ?

Matt,

Golfweek now has 400 best courses, Modern and Classic, in addition to 11 other top 100 lists.  I think they have it covered.  What other list would you like to see?  Personally, I would be interested in the top 100 that do not allow Golfweek raters access.

Matt_Ward

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #84 on: March 13, 2011, 08:05:56 PM »
John:

You are priceless -- what would all those raters do if they are added to the unemployed roster ?

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2011, 08:08:26 PM »
Jaeger:

Too often ratings tend to go for the overkill -- they simply post the same narrow band of courses of a similar type.

I think it would be good to see something broader than a ratings but a richer mixture which Tom D did in his preamble in CG.

Gave me real insight into his thinking process and how elastic he was.

Couldnt agree more! I was just pointing out the difference in the 31 flavors. I'm trying to put together some lists of my own for my site, I can never agree/settle on the categories or weighting I would use. I also sometimes like to separate the classic and modern.. its an imperfect process, but it certainly makes the debate interesting

Matt_Ward

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #86 on: March 13, 2011, 08:30:03 PM »
Jaeger:

I do think that future ratings will feature a broader mixture of courses -- give people a "menu" of sorts -- instead of a massive ratings process. Frankly, I think the mags favor a groupthink mentality and when you have these orientations that are carried out it sort of calls for that kind of end product.

Candidly, I am always more interested in a singular person's findings -- the group dynamis usually comes through a consensus formula and as a result those of a certain type usually shine ahead of others.

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #87 on: March 13, 2011, 08:31:32 PM »
I have not seen Ballyhack, but from all the pictures it seems to be a fairly severe course.  Here are the rankings for some others in the same general category:

141 - Tetherow
151 - Stone Eagle
157 - Primland
174 - Wolf Creek
189 - Erin Hills
NR  - Tobacco Road
NR  - Dismal River

Could it be that the GOLFWEEK panel just doesn't like that sort of golf? 

And if so, isn't the real outlier not Ballyhack or Tobacco Road, but Whistling Straits at #4 ?

Tom,

Excellent point.  The only wrinkle I would offer is that Whistling Straits, given it's notoriety and resort set up, would be more apt to attract raters than more remote locations like the ones you have listed, no?  With less total raters submitting scores, wouldn't the overall be more easily skewed by a couple people that provided very low scores?

I noticed Ballyhack was not on the list but also thought initially it may have been too early and not enough raters got a chance to visit.  Obviously that's not the case.  I am surprised that Tobacco Road and Dismal River didn't make the list either.  Many on here hold both in very high regard.

Ken

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #88 on: March 13, 2011, 09:28:19 PM »
Although I love Dismal River, I can certainly understand why it didn't make the rankings.  First off, it is how the system works.  If the course has been around for 5 years, it will have 5 years worth of votes stored up in the system.  If tweaks and adjustments have been made to the course within the last year, but the course has not been re-routed or something of simillar magnitude, those old votes will stay in the system and continue to drag down ratings until enough good ones come in...this could take some time.

Also, Dismal is a pretty challenging test of golf.  If you don't bring your "A" game, you could get kicked around.  This could hurt ratings, especially for raters who are not challenge-centric.

Dismal's routing is not conducive to an easy walk.  Again, this could hurt its rating/ranking for die-hard walking golfers who are looking for a nice stroll.

But in the end, doesn't it simply matter what the members think.  I love Dismal.  If it gets rated highly, great.  If not, great.  No biggie.  Jud T. has said similiar things about Kingsley.  If Digest and Golf Mag. don't ever rate Kingsley, I'm sure he won't lose sleep over it...as he loves the place regardless.

The lists and ratings make for good conversation...compare and contrast...and maybe some good ideas are passed from one course owner to another along the way.  Other than that if members are happy and owners can make a living...we are all good.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2011, 10:02:25 PM »
Kevin, I appreciate your interest and curiosity and take it for respectful inquiry. if you have only played 4 of the top-40, it's not surprising to me that your standards for Ballyhack or for other courses touted by a few folks here and elsewhere might be skewed. Having played 35 of the top-40 Modern layouts, I can only tell you that the more you play the more your judgments should become refined and the more you will learn to mistrust the enthusiasm of certain people. There are all sorts of reasons why some people decide to like and tout a golf course, and sometimes it has to do with psychology of being a booster.

I heard a lot about Erin Hills, and when I saw it found it to be a confusing jumble of superficial naturalism and incoherent shot-making. Three course renovations into its first five years I gather they are on the verge of getting more things right. But they started out so single-mindedly devoted to being a natural or minimalist layout that they conveniently overlooked the fact that the green sites they chose, while natural, were the wrong ones for the shapes they relied on. Maybe some day they will get it right. I hope so.

You point out a "disconnect" between the rave reviews Ballyhack got among some GCA posters and the results thus far with Golfweek's raters. That's because, I think, some enthusiastic fans of a certain retro-style are quick to endorse and rave about courses in that general tradition and to applaud such efforts, in the process being quick to support courses precisely because they are odd, quirky, confusing, and at times discordant, i.e. not immediately receptive and manageable. That's admirable, but it also can too easily mislead people into endorsing oddity and uncertainty for its own sake. My own sense of Ballyhack is that from the opening tee shot (a forced carry over a reasonably long ravine) it went out of its way and tried really hard to be different, weird, proliferating options, manufacturing choices and then obfuscating lines of play.


« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 05:19:51 AM by Brad Klein »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #90 on: March 13, 2011, 10:58:13 PM »
Brad - a particularly good and articulate post, thanks.  Your post and this whole thread made me think that we could have a new name for these types of rankings, i.e. "100 Courses that Work".  Just as the long ago "100 Toughest Tests" captured the spirit of a more muscular and homogenous age, maybe "100 Courses that Work" can reflect our increasingly fractured and diverse age, and suggest that when it comes to gca we are -- or should be -- past the era of a dominant ethos/style.  We just need golf courses that work.

Peter   

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #91 on: March 13, 2011, 11:47:25 PM »
Jaeger:

Too often ratings tend to go for the overkill -- they simply post the same narrow band of courses of a similar type.

I think it would be good to see something broader than a ratings but a richer mixture which Tom D did in his preamble in CG.

Gave me real insight into his thinking process and how elastic he was.

Couldnt agree more! I was just pointing out the difference in the 31 flavors. I'm trying to put together some lists of my own for my site, I can never agree/settle on the categories or weighting I would use. I also sometimes like to separate the classic and modern.. its an imperfect process, but it certainly makes the debate interesting


Matt and Jaeger:

Yes, you are picking up on my larger point.  The problem with going even deeper into the rankings is that in the shallow end of the pool, biased system design or prejudices amongst the raters will, instead of promoting diversity, reject diversity and show you more of the same.  In fact, I think that's even true before you get to #100 on the GOLFWEEK lists, it's why a few architects dominate the bottom half of the rankings.

To really honor diversity you would have to put some safeguards on the system and limit the number of courses that any architect might get, so that no one dominates.  Of course, that would be its own form of bias, but at least it's a bias that doesn't favor a handful of guys.

The problem in the end is the idea that there is an absolute concept of greatness and that any architect's formula [whether it is Tom Fazio's or Seth Raynor's or mine] might ever converge with it.  That's also why I am so set against the idea of having a formula of my own, or of even wanting to do the same thing twice.


Mac:  Nobody is losing sleep over their favorite course being omitted?  Come on, get serious.

Matt_Ward

Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #92 on: March 14, 2011, 12:01:01 AM »
Tom:

I agree with much of what you said.

The issue is that few architects really provide a slew of courses that are clearly differentiated from one another.

What you get is the same version -- minus a tweak here or there.

I see so many of TF's designs on the current 100 modern by GW and frankly some are just posted because they are a cut and paste version of another layout that likely is rated ahead of it. Of the 20+ TF has listed -- I could likely knock down his total to a range of 4-5 courses that best encapsulate what he has done. Likely the same could be done for the other more noted architects -- yourself included.

Architects often times repeat the same concepts because clients want them to mirror what they did previously -- that's what got them noticed to start with. As a result as architects age they take fewer risks -- they mail in variations of the same work with a couple of minor tucks and tweaks to bolster the "new" concept.

I also agree with you that when you get to down to courses in the range of 100-200 the spread of real differences between them is for all intents and purposes -- meaningless. The additional names are simply added in order to give more plaudits to courses in the "honorable mention" category.

I also think the limitations of consensus polls only serves to push forward the "groupthink" approach. I'd much rather see certain individuals be polled and see what they favor and why.

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #93 on: March 14, 2011, 12:44:10 AM »
I have not seen Ballyhack, but from all the pictures it seems to be a fairly severe course.  Here are the rankings for some others in the same general category:

141 - Tetherow
151 - Stone Eagle
157 - Primland
174 - Wolf Creek
189 - Erin Hills
NR  - Tobacco Road
NR  - Dismal River

Could it be that the GOLFWEEK panel just doesn't like that sort of golf? 

And if so, isn't the real outlier not Ballyhack or Tobacco Road, but Whistling Straits at #4 ?

+1
It's all about the golf!

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2011, 01:28:59 AM »
I have not seen Ballyhack, but from all the pictures it seems to be a fairly severe course.  Here are the rankings for some others in the same general category:

141 - Tetherow
151 - Stone Eagle
157 - Primland
174 - Wolf Creek
189 - Erin Hills
NR  - Tobacco Road
NR  - Dismal River

Could it be that the GOLFWEEK panel just doesn't like that sort of golf? 

And if so, isn't the real outlier not Ballyhack or Tobacco Road, but Whistling Straits at #4 ?

Tom,

Excellent point.  The only wrinkle I would offer is that Whistling Straits, given it's notoriety and resort set up, would be more apt to attract raters than more remote locations like the ones you have listed, no?  With less total raters submitting scores, wouldn't the overall be more easily skewed by a couple people that provided very low scores?

I noticed Ballyhack was not on the list but also thought initially it may have been too early and not enough raters got a chance to visit.  Obviously that's not the case.  I am surprised that Tobacco Road and Dismal River didn't make the list either.  Many on here hold both in very high regard.

Ken

Ken / Tom,

I had similar thoughts regarding the severity of Ballyhack, and the potential for that to sour a few raters.  And to Ken's point, that's why I was asking about the "volatility" of the ratings for Ballyhack - to see if its "average" was skewed due to a potential "love/hate" relationship.

I'm not as surprised about Tobacco Road being excluded.  Although the course has many proponents on here, it also receives quite a bit of strong criticism as well.  It was referred to frequently in the "Most Polarizing Course" thread several months ago.  Ballyhack didn't seem to have that polarizing effect, unless some people are pulling their punches on the board out of deference to Lester.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #95 on: March 14, 2011, 02:44:18 AM »
Kevin, I appreciate your interest and curiosity and take it for respectful inquiry. if you have only played 4 of the top-40, it's not surprising to me that your standards for Ballyhack or for other courses touted by a few folks here and elsewhere might be skewed. Having played 35 of the top-40 Modern layouts, I can only tell you that the more you play the more your judgements should become refined and the more you will learn to mistrust the enthusiasm of certain people. There are all sorts of reasons why some people decide to like and tout a golf course, and sometimes it has to do with psychology of being a booster.

I heard a lot about Erin Hills, and when I saw it found it to be a confusing jumble or superficial naturalism and incoherent shpt-making. Three course renovations into its first five years I gather they are on the verge of getting some things right. But they started out so single-mindedly devoted to being a natural or minimalist layout that they conveniently overlooked the fact that the green sites they chose, while natural, were the wrong ones for the shapes they relied on. Maybe some day they will get it right. I hope so.

You point out a disconnect" between the rave reviews Ballyhack got among some GCA posters and the results thus far with Golfweek's raters. That's because, I think, among some enthusiastic fans of a certain retro-style, they are quick to endorse and rave about courses in that general tradition rather and to applaud such efforts, in the process being quick to support courses precisely because they are odd, quirky, confusing, and at times discordant, i.e. not immediately receptive and manageable. That's admirable, but it also can too easily mislead people into endorsing oddity and uncertainty for its own sake. My own sense of Ballyhack is that it set out from the opening tee shot (a forced carry over a reasonably long ravine) is that it went out of its way and tried really hard to be different, weird, proliferating options, manufacturing choices and then obfuscating lines of play.


Brad,

Thanks for the feedback.  I understand my potential limitations given my relative inexperience, but at the same time, I am consciously avoiding a "booster" mentality and actively seeking out the potential criticisms of the course.  Also, when I visited Ballyhack, I specifically avoided any discussion of the course on here beforehand or even any photos, so I wouldn't have any preconceived notions about it (or about the "type" of course it would be).  I developed my own impressions of the course, and only after did I look at the discussions here (where I found many similar thoughts).

I'm fully aware that it's human nature to overreact to a new course, simply due to the "high" of experiencing something new.  I've walked off a number of courses with an inflated initial perception, and then "dampened" my enthusiasm after sitting back and acknowledging some of the weaknesses (e.g. Tobacco Road / Irish Course at WS).  In fact, I remember your specific review of Tobacco Road that had this effect on me.  However, Ballyhack hasn't "fallen" in my eyes, even after a more critical review.

The "sense" that you listed above (oddity & uncertainty for its own sake / trying hard to be weird, different, etc.) seems to be a critique more easily applied to most Strantz designs I've played, but I didn't get that sense at Ballyhack.  I never really felt that options were "forced on the land" at Ballyhack.  

I don't really understand your critique about the opening tee shot.  The piece of land is severe and has many natural ravines and ridges.   Occasional forced carries are inevitable unless you want to deny the nature of the land.  Even so, the forced carries are not oppressively long and feature generous landing areas (and #1 is the most challenging, by far).

Ultimately, I am trying to learn more and "refine" my judgments through this exchange.  I recognize that I have much to learn, but hope you appreciate I have consciously tried to filter out "fan boy enthusiasm."  While not as extensive as your experience, I have played a number of the supposed "elite" modern and classic courses, and have an appreciation of what leads to their ranking.  I'm genuinely interested in hearing some of the perceived limitations your raters may have noted at Ballyhack so I can challenge my initial judgments even further and see if they hold up.  I've already taken some of your comments above and used them to re-assess Ballyhack (as well as other courses I have played).  

When you do get out to Ballyhack, I look forward to hearing your impressions and reading your review.

Thanks for the time - Kevin

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2011, 05:36:01 AM »
Ken,

I wasn't suggesting you were being a fan boy -- I get the fact that you like Ballyhack and appreciate it. I was referring to the proclivity of some posters here on GCA to play up their own status by touting certain courses.

As for Ballyhack, if a course is supposed to be playable, it doesn't make any sense to me to make the opening tee shot (uphill, into the morning sun, as I recall) the longest, hardest forced carry on the whole golf course. That's one of many routing issues, esp. on the front nine, where the first eight holes looked, felt and played as if they had been squeezed in to the land.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2011, 08:42:44 AM »
John -

I do not believe Golfweek panelists are allowed at The Alotian. Not 100% sure but fairly positive. I know there are a few others.

The biggest omission IMHO is the Quarry at Giants Ridge. That place is fantastic. Next biggest is Rock Creek not being #1.;-)
Mr Hurricane

Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2011, 09:30:10 AM »
Jim,
That is the statement of a fan. I too am a fan of my favorites. The idea of of a team of raters is to diminish the impact of the fan and get to a true and reasonable rating based on the criteria that courses are rated.  I think all rating systems do this to the bent they are set up to. I disagree with GW on a couple of items. I am not in love with Sandhills. I just dont think it is number one. (very good though) However, I accept the communities evaluation of that course.

In all the discussion in this thread, the most intriguing comment was, does Whistling Straits belong as number 4 from the perspective of being consistent within the GW universe. My vote would be, it is ranked higher than it deserves.

It would be interesting to see the standard deviations of the ratings just as much as it was to see the second hundred ratings.  I think this would show us more about the psychology of the raters. I wonder if GW would let a study of the raters be done. To be clear, a truly scientific study done from an attitude of trying to learn about how raters think and why, is what I would propose. (somewhat an academic approach I suppose but guilty as charged)

Brad

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golfweek Top 100 CLassic list and Modern #101-#200
« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2011, 09:40:13 AM »
Yes Whistling Straits is overrated in Golfweek. As for my Rock Creek comment, it was more of a joke than an actual criticism whereas The Quarry at Giants Ridge was criticism. It should be be in the top 100 let alone 200.
Mr Hurricane

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