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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2002, 10:49:33 AM »
When he said 'he found a Redan' do you think he meant he actually found a Redan and planted a flag, or that he found the natural ground to build a perfect Redan?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2002, 10:52:58 AM »
Don't know what he meant, Tom, but he did neither. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2002, 11:05:50 AM »
TEPaul,

I'm not so sure I agree with your assessment regarding the construction of the 8th green and surrounds at NGLA.

The ridge you reference falls off sharply long before you arrive at the 8th green.  Just look at the 11th tee.

I'm not so sure the massive amount of dirt needed to build
# 8 green didn't come from the excavated valleys in # 9 fairway, now partially filled in with bunker sand.  If you look at the right hand fairway bunker off the 9th tee it has sharp lines, lines that would seem to indicate creation by the shovel, steamshovel that is.

The entire right side of the 8th fairway continues to fall off in a seemingly natural, yet gradual slope, far into the woods, from the paved road all the way past the 9th tee, to the pond off the 9th tee.  

The deep depression created on the left and center of the 9th fairway would seem to have been an ideal place from which to take the massive amount of dirt needed to form the fortress green and surrounds at # 9 green.  There is an enormous amount of dirt in that complex, and I doubt that it came from the right side of the 8th hole.  The next time you stand on the tee at # 9, just look at the topography of the first and second portions of the 9th fairway, then look at what I believe is a valley created by the excavation needed to supply the 8th green with its massive amount of dirt.

From a construction point of view it is far more logical a site, then any other nearby area, and the evidence of the removal of massive amounts of dirt, seems fairly obvious to me.

I think some of that excavation was used to create the front part of the 10th green as well.

Let's look at this complex at the Singles and discuss it further.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2002, 03:12:07 PM »
Tom:

I don't know, you and I may be on the same page more than one would think although it seems we might be saying different things.

My points and feelings about MacD and Raynor (at NGLA anyway) are:

Of course they used the natural aspects of the preconstruction site unbelievably well for golf! But what they felt they needed to do particularly with many of their greens, complexes and surrounds and most definitely there surfaces and internal contours were not intended by them, in my opinion, to necessarily flow or tie in with some of the natural contours and grades they used as greensites! #1 is a good example, #2, probably much of #3 like the entire right side and definitely the rear, some of #4, #7, most definitely #8, right side of #9, #11 on the green, some of #12, particularly the rear, #13 probably, particularly the rear, rear of #15.

What I'm saying is when they needed to manufacturer and engineer their primary focus had to be the quality of what they were making for golf and it's playability. After that they left so much of the engineering as just that and did not even attempt to tie it or blend it into any of the natural grades where they obviously deemed that unnecessary for golf or more importantly just to do it for the sake of blending. There is just way too much stark engineering left on the architecture of that course to think they were doing that or even remotely interested in doing that!

The greens themselves are unbelievable, as you know! The slopes, internal contours and sizes are unbelievably good for golf and if they happened not to look much like what were original grades and contours that they found preconstruction, then so be it!

But how they tied what they found there into some of the overly dramatic things they engineered in a whole course sense is also very brilliant, in my opinon. And that to me takes some real scrutinizing of the entire feel of NGLA to figure out and really appreciate!

A good example of this might be the look and sensation you get when you stand on the 2nd tee and look at that hole--it's very different and seems somewhat otherworldy for golf somehow. That hole fascinates me as to what they did and didn't do architecturally to that #2 landform! Pat, do you want to give #2 a stab? What to you think they did or didn't do on that hole architecturally?

If the paradox is just yours and your own dilemma (I got it right Dan!) about how and why the whole package of NGLA works so well then I guess I understand better what you're saying! I'm saying, sure, they used NGLA's natural aspects but where they wanted to really manufacture and engineer something for golf they did it without ruse or attempting to hide their hand! They did it that way, in my opinion, because great golf holes was their real focus not great holes that had to be completely blended and tied into the natural grades and contours of the original site--in many cases anything but!

This doesn't make them bad designers or anti-naturalists in any way to me, anything but obviously--but they were early architects and hiding much of the engineered look was not important to them--not necessay, in my opinion. And very much the same was true of the rest of Raynor's career and also such as Banks and Langford and quite a few other early ones too!

Now MacKenzie and some of his contingent and disciples, that's a different story altogether, but that was later!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2002, 03:25:06 PM »
TEPaul,

I agree with you in that I think NGLA is highly manufactured.

I think one of the best ways to observe this, on almost every hole, is to start 50 yards behind every green and head back to the tee.  What is revealed differs from what you see when you start at a tee and end up at the green.

Hole # 2 is a perfect example.  Go fifty yards in front of the tee on # 3 and look back at # 2 green.  Then circle # 2 green from 50 yards out.  Climb up onto # 2 green from the rear and observe the surroundings.  Walk back toward the tee and make 360 degree sweeps every 50 yards.  I think you could reasonably conclude that the entire hole was manufactured, especially the green and its immediate surrounds.

That same process is an eye opener at almost every hole.

But, that's just my opinion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2002, 04:53:17 PM »
You understand what I'm saying, that Raynor's course have a reputation of being highly manufactured and certainly many of his features have an engineered appearance. But that he and Macdonald were both brilliant at utilizing the natural features of a given site and the result is very appealing -- the paradox. I think Ran hit on it perfectly, they almost never moved dirt between tee and green allowing the natural lay of the land to be the dominant underlying element.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2002, 06:10:29 PM »
You understand what I'm saying, that Raynor's course have a reputation of being highly manufactured and certainly many of his features have an engineered appearance. But that he and Macdonald were both brilliant at utilizing the natural features of a given site and the result is very appealing -- the paradox. I think Ran hit on it perfectly, they almost never moved dirt between tee and green allowing the natural lay of the land to be the dominant underlying element.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2002, 06:25:35 PM »
When he said 'he found a Redan' do you think he meant he actually found a Redan and planted a flag, or that he found the natural ground to build a perfect Redan?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2002, 06:54:22 PM »
Tom MacW & Pat:

Please don't mistake what I've been saying about MacD and Raynor's NGLA. I absolutely have never said I think the golf course is highly manufactured. All I've ever said is where they did manufacture, particularly a number of the greens, complexes and surrounds they made no apparent attempt whatsoever to hide that manufacturing or engineering which in many cases was very extreme!

Highly manufactured means to me that they moved earth and a good deal of it all over the course and the holes. Nothing of the kind. When you carefully walk through each and every hole (no golf now) you will find that the body of almost every hole is probably much like the way it was originally! It's a number of the green complexes that are clearly manufactured with no attempt to hide that fact.

Again Hole #2 is probably fairly representative of what they did and didn't do. All they did on that hole, I'm completely convinced, is site the tee unusually close to #1 green which is highly manufactured (some say almost on the side or rear of what it is now), carve a large diagonal bunker into the face of the ridge that the drive carries over (that entire ridge, every bit of it, I'm convinced, is natural), prop the green up from the rear with natural grade beginning at approximately what is now the front of it and that's it--period!

That's not much at all! But the elevation change from the front of the green (natural grade) down just beyond the back of it is quite severe and that's a lot of fill to build that quite large green out in that particular severe position. From the right, behind and somewhat from the left the engineering is quite stark and apparent. I suppose it would have been very possible to hide that stark engineering on #2 green somewhat but again I think they had no interest in doing that just to do it.

And it goes on and on through the course like that in about the same way with the areas that they engineered (which may be quite minimal in general area) being the parts that really appear to be dramatically engineered! The so-called replica holes are the ones that have the most manufacturing, for obvious reasons, and the original holes are actually extremely minimal in earth moving, in my opinion, even at the green-ends.

So that's really all I'm saying Tom. For you to say that they identified many of the natural aspects of NGLA preconstruction is true but that is really not defining the uniqueness of NGLA. What's so unique is what they did engineer and seemed content to leave that way.  That's one of the most unusual things about NGLA and if you saw it it would be almost impossible to think or say otherwise.

That and the fact that they built so many highly unusual holes of such extreme variety and high quality for golf!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Sweeney

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2002, 07:37:38 PM »
Is there a Raynor or MacDonald Society similar to Ross?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2002, 07:50:43 PM »
MikeS:

Yes there is and you happen to be at it right now!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2002, 04:12:05 PM »
In case anyone never noticed, the quote to the left is from CB Mac and not Fred Flintstone. It refers to Macdonald's impression of some of the monstrosities being created at the time he was penning "Scotland's Gift." If that is not the most eloquent and damning assessment of artificiality and aesthetically vacant golf architecture, I don't know what is.

It has always been my understanding that after they cleared the property at NGLA, CB came upon the site for a Redan and Alps immediately and simply layed them into the existing contours. Remember, if he was going to shove his ideas on the land like Nicklaus does, there would be a Biarritz hole there because that was part of the template.

I've never quite figured out why neither CB or Raynor ever built another Sahara - although he approved of the original in England as a hazard and not a golf hole. I wonder if the catch-basins on the right side of #16 at Mid Ocean and #2 at NGLA are somehow related. I dearly love both of those holes.

Some of this push-me, pull-me on this thread about whether something looks artificial ignores the effect of time. Most of the old photos of Golden Age courses I have seen taken shortly after opening looked fairly contrived and unnatural. After a few years, courses sort of snuggle into the land and settle a bit, making the lines more pleasing to the eye.

That said,  I find Raynor's simple geometic shapes seem to age better than much of Mackenzie's work. All that irregular shaping of the bunkers looks great at the outset, but witness how rounded off the traps at Cypress Point looked before restoration. How about those wild whirly-gigs from George C. Thomas? Anyone ever look at the old sepia photos on the wall of Lake Merced CC? Most of that cool stuff from past eras went by the wayside (IMHO) because it was not maintainable over the long term.

Maybe the paradox is that we tend to eschew simple land forms in our  aesthetic evaluations in favor of more jazzy looking bunkers. In the end, it is the strategies that are most important, not the eye candy. All those berms and ridges only get better over time.

Do I like Eckenrode and C&C and DeVries' artistic designs? Absolutely. Plus they are placed for a strategic purpose. I just wonder how they will look in 75 years in comparison to Raynor's bunkers.

It took those idiots at American Golf less than 2 years to ruin Monarch Bay - where Harbottle knocked my eyeballs out - but part of the problem is that the maintainence is as complex as the strategies.

Artificial and ugly are two differnent things. The very soul of golf shrieks when it sees something ugly. Simple, restrained and utilitarian hazards might be the future  of our game if we want to keep costs in line (see Mike Young).

Which brings me to a thought I have long held about Raynor (and C&C especially) and that is his sense of proportionality. Ugly looking landforms are oftentimes -at least to me - the result not of the actual shape or movement of the hazard or green, but more often the fact that the  entire expression is out of context with its surroundings.

Think of big hazards, big greens, wide fairways, bold brush-strokes, that is Yale. It all fits because everything - even the obviously artificial - is in correct proportion. Now, let's move to one of my favorites: Westhampton. Smaller and more intimate, it is obviously entirely manufactured but it all flows together in concert because all the individual pieces have a similar proportionality to their surrounds.

Who cares if something looks "built" or "engineered" anyway? Everyone seems to agree that the Redan and Road holes are two of the greatest in the world and the Road is the most contrived looking thing I've ever seen. How about early pictures of the Redan? Howz that for ugly with all the timber in the bunker? The Eden hole is no thing of beauty either. Is the Cardinal going to win any prizes?    

That is why CB did not make exact copies, but simply identified the specific strategic component of each hole that made it noteworthy and tried to blend it into his designs. Raynor continued on the path by blending in these strategies without getting unnecessarily fancy. In truth, the Redan at NGLA is far superior to the original. The Alps at NGLA or Fishers . . . . . . enough said. Even when he could not make an exact copy - the Biarrtiz comes to mind - he maintained the strategy through the use of representations. That swale in front of the green has zero to  do with the landform found on the original hole that inspired it.  

The paradox is not a paradox at all. Simple and crisp can be just as beautiful an artistic expression as intricate and complex. You just have to look at it through different eyes.      
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2002, 06:08:48 PM »
TEPaul and Gib,

Do you think the 10th green at NGLA may have originally been designed as a modified Biarritz ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2002, 06:09:17 PM »
P.S. Banks departed from the Raynor templete in some ways and although his coursesand body of work are impressive by any measuring stick, Raynor's interpretations are still more endearing as a group. (IMNSHO)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2002, 06:35:48 PM »
Very well said, Gib, and I agree with almost everything you say!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2002, 07:04:15 PM »
From the sounds of your comments it appears you feel it necessary to defend Raynor. I don't think anyone believes his courses are ugly, just the opposite. But there is also general agreement that the golden age courses of MacKenzie, Thomas, Flynn, Simpson, Thompson et al. have great aesthetic appeal because of their use of natural features, their ability to create features that mimick nature and their ability to meld the two. And there is general agreement that Macdonald, Raynor, Banks and Langford created geometric man-made features apparently in opposition to the first group. There lies the dilemma why is Raynors work so aesthetically pleasing. And what adds to the dilemma is Macdonalds writing on the subject in which clearly reflect an empahasis on nature.

I'm not sure attempting to down grade the current aesthectic appeal Thomas and MacKenzie is necessary, arguing that their style was too fragile and didn't/doesn't age well. While I will agree that the bunkers of Thomas and MacKenzie were very intricate and stylish at their inception and have softened over the years, I would have disagree with you that they are not still extremely aesthetically pleasing in their evolved form. They have gone from spectacular to magnificent.

And I wouldn't call features that attempt reflect the haphazard nature of Nature eye-candy - eye-candy is gratuitous. Artificial and ugly can be two differnt things, but they can also be the same thing. Just as natural and artistic are not the same thing, although they can be. I totaly agree that one the secrets to Macdonald and Raynor's appeal is proportion. On some of their most rugged sites they seemed to creat some of their boldest features. The eye for proportion is common strength among the greats.

I would agree that there is mis-representation of Macdonald/Raynor's work in photos. I've seen old photos of their work that has very irregular in outline (Old White comes to mind) and other photos that have a very stark linear edge - no doubt that is a result of timing.

But for me the paradox remains that Macdonald and Raynor seem to be known for their engineered or built aesthetics -- and you seem to agree arguing that crisp and simple are just as beautiful -- yet in my mind they are not properly recognized for creating some of the most naturaly attuned designs of their era or any era. That is the paradox for me - that the artificial guys were in actuality the most natural guys. It is easy to focus on what a golf architect does or creates, it is more difficult to focus on what he retains or leaves alone.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2002, 08:09:46 PM »
Good post Gib!

There certainly is in many ways a lot to analyze at NGLA, but I really don't think, we, 90 years later need to make NGLA or MacD and Raynor anything they weren't or aren't--either the designers or the golf course. And I think sometimes we try to do that to fit all three into some kind of ongoing or almost all encompassing ideal. NGLA is what it is and to understand it best it needs to be looked at in its proper place in the evolution of architecture. And it and it's place is very significant!

To really understand it I think it's very important to look at in in comparision and in relation to what came in the 10-20 years before it and also what came in the 10-20 years after its opening. There is a ton to be learned in that 40 years span in American architecture and how that span in America related to the somewhat parallel era of architecture in Europe, but also how all of it (American and European) related to the original, natural, non-architectural and evolutionary layouts of Europe, obviously being the courses of the linksland primarily.

NGLA certainly did set a standard in early American architecture and its important to really understand what its inspiration and creation by MacDonald was reacting to and influenced by and how that reaction and influence effected what came later.

The entire subject of the so-called replica holes and what they were and weren't is a whole separate subject and one that should be discussed here, as there are still many misconceptions about them, in my opinon, what they were and weren't intended to be compared to their original holes and concepts.

NGLA's architecture should also be analyzed for its original holes and concepts (the non-replicas) as they, frankly, could be the most interesting of all from an early architectural standpoint!

The so-called "naturalness" of design and construction or attempts at it in the so called "Golden Age" is, to me,   another whole subject and one that I think can be very misleading to lump the entire "Golden Age" era together as one of only unique similarities. I think there are many more  unique differences within the "Golden Age" era itself than we realize or are sometimes willing to admit!

In a more specific sense regarding the replica holes, we seem to think sometimes that MacD and Raynor would use them on every project regardless of the site and topography and some even seem to think they should have been careful and exact copies to be valid. To think that is not only misleading but to a large extent to almost misunderstand architecture, I think!

In that vein, it would seem very fortunate that MacDonald actually found the natural landform that is now the redan and also the alps. If he didn't find something naturally conducive it would probably be the explanation of why that concept replica was not build or possibly built as a very loose representaiton or interpretation, if even that!

When it comes to copying, concept copying, or even a vague representation, Tom Fazio's decision to forgo even attempting to build a copy of Pine Valley's #5 simply because he could not find a similar landform on Pine Valley's short course should tell us a lot about this and about what MacDonald was doing too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2002, 09:49:01 PM »
Tom:

I really don't understand. You say the engineered areas of NGLA look naturally attuned to you? You mean you actually think they look like something that nature itself would have created? Wow! They sure don't at all to me--not even close!

That doesn't mean they aren't great for golf or unique looking or in some way undefinably appealing although highly engineered which would be far from the look of nature! You should realize that the vast majority of NGLA is natural--just the way nature made it. MacD and Raynor very likely did not touch vast areas of what NGLA is (like most of the bodies of most of the holes) and some other areas very minimally--and some of what they did do like much mid-hole bunkering fits in well with the look of nature. But the manufacturing of about 1/3 to 1/2 of their green sites and areas around their greens don't look like nature or even remotely like nature. Not even close. These areas look highly manufactured. This doesn't mean that those area aren't beautiful somehow but having a look attuned to nature? Surely not to me.

MacKenzie, on say Cypress, attuned almost everything far more to nature and what nature looks like but even he seemed to create some features, like some of his bunkering, that although astoundingly beautiful (to me anyway) had  almost a fragility or an artistry or a laciness to it that although again unbelievable beautiful was far more of a  representation of what nature looks like than the areas of NGLA that we refer to as "engineered". What Mackenzie did to me is naturally attuned or a long way towards it.

The most naturally attuned golf courses I've ever seen meaning all the features, which includes the best of the old photos of the best of the old "Golden Age" courses would be the likes of Pacific Dunes and Sand Hills and most of Friar's Head, probably Hidden Creek too.

The bunkering on those courses and many of the other features and also the bunkering on some of Gil Hanse's new courses is the most naturally attuned to nature I've ever seen anywhere at any time. A lot of the features of these courses almost go beyond "naturally attuned" and get very close to looking like nature really did make it.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2002, 03:43:02 AM »
TE
No I did not say the engineered features at the NGLA appeared naturally attuned. This thread started out on Raynor, you introduced the NGLA, which is fine. I said Raynor was naturally attuned.  Your focus is on the the 10% of his courses that are engineered, I'm trying to bring attention to the 90% of his courses that are untouched. What do you see when you look out over Fishers Island or Chicago or Yeamans Hall or St.Louis or Yale? Not engineered features.

Raynor is a perfect example of why I don't like the term minimalist. He is famous for his engineered features, platform greens, embanked bunkers, geometry - hardly a minimalist. But from tee to green he practically never altered the lay of the land (as opposed to the modern practice of grading everything from tee to green to give it a flowing 'natural' appearance) and perhaps no one was better able to recognize and utilize the natural features of a site - minimalism at its finest. When is a non-minimalist also a brilliant minimalist? The Raynor paradox.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2002, 07:29:31 AM »
Tom MacW:

I sure hope noone including yourself feels that this particular topic and thread has in any way gotten remotely argumentative or disagreeable.

To me this thread is one of the best ever if one is truly interested in the detail, the construction nuts and bolts that truly make up the architectural creations and certainly the principles and focus of some of these architects, particularly early ones of the "Golden Age". And also how very much those details, design and construction principles and methods quickly evolved and evolved very broadly across a most interesting architectural spectrum from say a starting point of 1910 (in America) and the debut of NGLA to the end of the 1920s and the crash and depression!

I think basically you're pretty accurate percentage-wise when you say that 10% of NGLA was manufactured and engineered and 90% was left natural and untouched. And you're right that the 10% of MacD/Raynor's NGLA that was manufactured is what most people have always noticed and remarked on simply because it does look so engineered!

However, there are a couple of very important factors to analyze and consider carefully in those percentages and in NGLA. First, why was that 10% that they manufactured so "engineered" looking, and second, was there anything even remotely unusual about the fact that they left 90% untouched?

I think I already answered the first question in previous posts. They didn't really care if the 10% they manufactured looked engineered! Not in that early era anyway! They cared primarily, maybe even exclusively, how it played for golf despite the highly engineered look!

To me that engineered look just happens to be the point to which early architecture had gotten to in 1910 in America. Frankly, although we might look at it through a much different lens today, that highly engineered style combining to create really great golf holes was obviously and immense break through in early golf architecture! You only have to look at the shockingly mundane or else the even more shockingly symmetrical geometric features of what immediately preceded them in architecure to understand that!

And regarding the second question of the 90% they left untouched and used for golf. You seem to imply that was unusual and praise-worthy on MacD and Raynor's part, particularly when compared to the large amount of whole hole earth that's moved today.

I completely disagree with that and I suggest you are completely misreading the particular era they worked in and them as well because of it! Noone moved massive amounts of earth back then to create entire holes--simply because it was very hard to do! It would have been extremely expensive and the machinery to do it just wasn't available.

The irony is if any of the early architects were inclined to or capable of moving larger amounts of earth than anyone else at that time it was MacDonald and Raynor. And the reason is they were copying holes, pieces of holes and entire concepts from somewhere else, so in many cases they had to manufacture things, particularly green-ends to do that!

They were certainly the first to do that or do it on that scale. That takes a certain grand vision and also engineering ability that had obviously not been remotely tried or equaled up to that time. And if there was even a single example of entire hole or large portions of a course being manufactured it surely and clearly had to have been the Lido!! That was without question an engineering and manufacturing feat that in relation to the available machinery back then and that of today probably far exceeded the likes of Shadow Creek in both vision and engineering scope!

So the percentages you use are probably correct but your  comparisons and conclusions to other architects and other architecture of their time (the entire "golden Age" from around the turn of the century to the Crash) and also our time I think are seriously skewing the realities of architecture, both theirs and ours and also the evolution of it.

Time to close down this long post but next it would be very interesting to look at what the preconstruction site of NGLA really did look like and how they used what was there before they touched it. At this they were clearly brilliant and innovative and this is where I think you're right that they were certainly as good or probably far better than anyone of the NGLA era at identifying and using natural features for golf!

It's probably also important to analyze just how unusual and potential for golf that thin band of the north shore of the eastern end of Long Island really is. Its topography and natural features can be mindblowingly diverse and potential and much of the raw land of NGLA clearly shows that. And  don't forget MacDonald's site search took a long time and covered a lot of the Northeast!

We can walk around the holes of NGLA and try to speculate what was originally there and what they did to it and how they did or didn't tie things that they did in with what was there but if we're lucky we might not have to speculate much longer. The reason is if there are any contour lines on those old routing plans which might have been topo maps we will be able to see it exactly and in detail.

I just found that out by looking very closely at Crump's original routing scheme that's been hanging on the wall at Pine Valley for a very long time. Many people have probably looked at it and tried to unravel a somewhat evolutionary routing progression of holes but I'd bet no one has ever noticed that on that framed routing plan are extremely faint CONTOUR LINES that show EXACTLY what Crump found, what he used naturally, and what he made that wasn't there.

If the same can be found for NGLA it will unlock lots of mysteries but again I'd bet no one has ever even noticed that much less intricately analyzed it. Maybe George Bahto has but if so I would almost guarantee that he's the only one who ever has!

So again, in my opinion, there is no Raynor Paradox. I should also say that I did include NGLA into the discussion of this topic and what you call the Raynor Paradox because I think it has to be included! That's where he started and that has to be where he learned almost everything he knew about architecture (not engineering) that MacDonald taught him. And also so much of what is NGLA, it's style, its look and even its holes are what Raynor continued to do until the end of his own career!


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2002, 08:52:41 AM »
Tom MacW

Thanks for starting this thread and inspiring Tom and Gib (the two P's) into full and magnificent flight!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2002, 09:07:02 AM »
TE
Very interesting. I enjoyed reading your take on the evolution of design and chronology of events, and even your conjecture on intent - some I agree with, some I do not. I'd say those subjects deserve their own threads.

This thread regarding a Raynor paradox was intended to be a purely aesthetic question and a personal one at that. If you find Raynor's courses ugly or visually unappealing then there is no paradox. Likewise if you find geometric or artificially engineered earthworks enherently leasing aesthecially then again there is no paradox. The paradox is my own and has to do with the reasons why Raynor's course are aesthetically pleasing to me (and possibly others) dispite their engineered reputation. And in attempting to explain the reasons several possible answers or theories came up - extraordinary sites, a talent to recognize and utilize interesting natural features, contrast, simplicity, proportion and the fact that Raynor courses may not be as engineered or linear as they are reputed to be.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

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Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2002, 09:07:47 AM »
Full and magnificent, indeed!

Maybe TOO full! Eh, Tom I?  ;D

I'm starting to think that maybe GCA needs to employ a Recapper -- like those people at Television Without Pity (www.televisionwithoutpity.com) who give scene-by-scene recaps of TV-show episodes...for the benefit of those people who, for example, may be so busy arguing about The Raynor Paradox (or The MacWood Paradox -- economically stated: Why do I like courses I shouldn't like?) that they couldn't find time for "The West Wing."

Anyone care to attempt a recap of this thread? I nominate Rich.  8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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TEPaul

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2002, 11:40:45 AM »
I don't know Tom, you and I on this subject may be closer than we realize. I can't really recap this subject as Dan Kelly recommended someone do--I'm incapable of explaining anything on here briefly.

But I still see you saying things to me that are very black and white! Like if one feels Raynor's engineered look is ugly and visually unappealing there is no paradox. And conversely, if one feels geometric and artifically engineered earthworks are inherently pleasing aesthetically there is no paradox. I very well might not feel either!

I don't think I have those expectations or those sentiments, and if I do, they may not be half so strong as yours are. I tend to look at golf architecture in more of an evolutionary sense and I may not have a universal preference for a type of architecture, or a style, or even a specific principle, particularly if one tries to lump the entire history of it into a single ideal or a single principle or set of principles!

I very well may have learned that from Bill Coore himself! Not to say there aren't courses and architecture he finds extremely obnoxious, and others he finds extremely magnificent but in all of this he also finds a wide variety of things in the architecture of courses obnoxious and also a wide variety of things about the architecture of courses that're magnificent.

And ultimately, I think he finds, as do I, that the best of all in golf architecture is the vast differences of styles and looks and playabilities and maybe even principles too that can be magnificent somehow.

I do use "somehow" recognizing that to try to categorize and define the hows and whys of it all can probably seem paradoxical somtimes. But I don't think I feel the need to go there or the need to be that extreme in black and white.

I don't think this means I'm not discriminating in my tastes either. I think I can look at a model T and appreciate it for what it is and look at a 2002 Ferrari and appreciate it for what it is too. I can also look at the Edsel or some of the styles of the early 1960s and be very turned off by them.

But a model T is not a 2002 Ferrari and doesn't look anything like it except for the four wheels. I don't know how much the design, focus, architectural principles and construction methods are the same or the same ideal or principle either--not much I would suspect.

But if you put them in their eras they become more clear and understandable and maybe even more appreciated and enjoyable. And I don't mean just put them in their era, I mean understand their era too, the focus of the era, the limitations of the era, etc--it's important to do!

We have talked a great deal on here about naturalness, the use of nature and natural aspects, untouched by man. And also how important it is to try to mimic nature as best as can be done when other things need to be made.

I think MacKenzie, for instance, did this much better than MacDonald and Raynor with most of what he did, but he came later and from them he may even have learned some of the first possibilities of what actually could be made by man to create things that were so much more interesting for golf! But he clearly went beyond that early manufactured look and made those construction necessities look more like nature.

I like what Gib said about MacKenzie that he may have even gone too far or in a bit of a misdirection and made those constructed features look almost like a fragile representation  of nature in sort of an artistic sense. I agree with Gib on that!

But I feel that although its important to look at these things evolutionarily and in their eras, you can also look at this entire history of architecture in the context of what looks most natural or is most attuned to nature, And if you do the likes of Pacific Dunes and Sand Hills may very well be the best that have ever been done in that context! I believe I really do feel that way.

What I do not like are the highly stylized golf courses and their architecture and also things in their designs that  requires extreme manicuring that looks nothing like nature to me.

In that way you and I are probably alike in our tastes, in that we like architecture that combines the pure untouched beauty of nature and many of its dimensions and lines, even its rough lines and aspects too--sort of warts and all-- into the courses and their playbabilities!

That may be why I really don't much like the look of some desert courses and some of their architecture although some might play well! Probably why I don't much like the thought of Shadow Creek too. Even with NGLA just the way it is architecturally, I would not like it half so well if they decided to highly manicure it! I realize that does not really effect the inherent architecture but still I would not like it half so well!

So I don't know Tom, maybe there is a paradox, maybe not, but as you said maybe it's just you. I don't think that I necessarily find the manufactured and engineered look of NGLA appealing or unappealing!

I do find it very fascinating though, but probably because I recognize that it's very much of an era and what it was in that era. Despite the engineered look, and understanding that that look came before the era of attempts at more naturalness, I think I apprecate it for all that it is in the evolution of architecture, and also, and most importantly, it still plays so very well!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

APBernstein

Re: The Raynor Paradox
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2002, 01:05:43 PM »
Tom and Tom:

It is difficult to completely digest all that has been said and discussed in this thread.  I think Dan Kelly's suggestion of a synopsis is a good idea, but until that happens, I will offer my one specific example that may continue this discussion.

My first experience with Seth Raynor was and is Fox Chapel, outside of Pittsburgh.  However, I have seen many different pictures and coupled with the endless talk or Raynor on this site, I believe I have a decent grasp of the so-called unnatural style that Raynor employs.  I found Fox Chapel to be a very different case indeed.

Raynor has created a very appealing mix of the created anbd the natural, employing the former only so much as to not destroy the latter.  One can find the staples (Redan, Eden, Short, etc.), but the way the player encounters these is a testament to the course.  In no way did I feel these holes to be somehow intruding on the landscape.  The (reverse) Redan especially is situated perfectly on a ridge that affords the course the true characteristics of the concept.  I have no doubt that land was moved to create the hole, but not so much dirt to make it seem overt.

I think the Raynor stereotype exists because there are so many courses that do employ the obviously created land features to accomplish the kind of strategic excellence that his courses generally merit.  However, I will be forever impressed with Fox Chapel, not because it is a great course, which it isn't, but because the land dictated the design more so than did the steamshovel.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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