Why don't newbies get Wild Horse?

[John Kavanaugh]

This summer there was a bus trip promoted by Golfweek that took several newbie raters on an excursion across Nebraska that included Wild Horse, Sand Hills and The Prairie Club.  There is now evidence that Wild Horse was not appreciated as in the past.  What possible excuse could exist for this change of heart from the pioneers who first brought this great course to our attention?

[JESII]

The company it kept...

[Mark Saltzman]

I may be wrong, but I thought the trip was for International (the most experienced) raters only.

[Steve Strasheim]

I'm a big fan of Wild Horse.

Only reasons I could think of is the on-course housing aspect and the Gothenburg experience.

[John Kavanaugh]

I may be wrong, but I thought the trip was for International (the most experienced) raters only.

Thanks, that is hilarious.  To Jim's point about the company kept, I believe that most if not all previous raters had also seen Sand Hills.  An interesting factor is the inclusion of The Prairie Club as it appears that they and Wild Horse were seen as equals on this trip, clearly out of the top 100.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

Maybe the new batch of raters are bigger snobs than the old batch?

While I like a lot of the things the GOLFWEEK rankings have done, they are the only ones to put in writing that housing around a course is automatically a detraction, and their language to voters emphasizes the aesthetic experience more than the other rankings do.  (The others leave room for it, but more on the terms of the individual panelists.)  Plus, panelists like loads of bunkers, everyone knows that.

[John Kavanaugh]

I get the housing deal.  I just asked Awarii Dunes to send me a master plan outlining where their housing will be located.  I've already got a round booked at the expense of Wild Horse.  I have no problem agreeing that the housing location at Awarii Dunes will and should be a factor in how they are perceived by the golfing community.

[Jerry Kluger]

It is truly sad if raters don't understand Wild Horse or its brilliance.  It is so simple and so enjoyable that you have to come away thinking that it is truly something special.  I first played Wild Horse on a trip where it was followed by Dismal River, Sand Hills and Ballyneal and we all agreed that it was not as great as Sand Hills or Ballyneal but it was just as significant because of what was done.  It is simple farmland with a bit of roll to it where the holes felt natural and the greens were well contoured, interesting and challenging.  No need to plant trees and create lakes just different options and angles is all you need. Sand Hills and Ballyneal are bigger and better courses on better pieces of property but Wild Horse is close behind.

[JC Jones]

The company it kept...

A shame if that is the case.  A course should be judged independently, not in comparison to its neighbors.  This is one of the main reasons, I believe, that Kingsley Club is not rated higher. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Why don't you shut up and join Kingsley if you love it so much?

[JC Jones]

I'd sure love to.  If nothing else, to ensure victory in the annual MSU/UM matches.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'd sure love to.  If nothing else, to ensure victory in the annual MSU/UM matches.

Please tell us why you don't.  All of the members that I know are national members.  I am told it is very inexpensive.

I believe your reasoning is relevant to this topic as I am considering joining Awarii Dunes and will if I love it half as much as you profess to love Kingsley.  Are you afraid of being a member of the second best course on the block?  You seem to believe the worth of neighboring courses is relevant to the course at hand.  So, what is it?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Its hard NOT to judge Wild Horse in light of SH.  Frankly, it doesn't hold up all that well. Its not only that the land is only 1/10th as good, but the details of the shaping, while done by the same guys, don't seem to work as well as SH, done under the direction of Bill and Ben.  Just saying.

[JC Jones]

John,

Having played all of the courses in the area multiple times (save Arcadia, which I've only played once but is public so not relevant), I can tell you that I believe Kingsley Club to be the best of them all.  Of course I doubt even the architect would agree with me but I've done the hole by hole match-up and the total package comparison and each time I believe Kingsley to be the best.  That takes absolutely nothing away from the other course on the block as I believe that to be world class and worthy of its ranking.

That being said, I DON'T believe neighboring courses SHOULD be relevant.  I believe they are but that is a flaw in the rankings. 

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Having played all of the courses in the area multiple times (save Arcadia, which I've only played once but is public so not relevant), I can tell you that I believe Kingsley Club to be the best of them all.  Of course I doubt even the architect would agree with me but I've done the hole by hole match-up and the total package comparison and each time I believe Kingsley to be the best.  That takes absolutely nothing away from the other course on the block as I believe that to be world class and worthy of its ranking.

That being said, I DON'T believe neighboring courses SHOULD be relevant.  I believe they are but that is a flaw in the rankings. 

Ok, so now you are saying that you believe Kingsley is better than Crystal Downs and you still do not explain why you don't join Kingsley.  Please, just ignore this thread and go back to where this started.

[John Kavanaugh]

Its not only that the land is only 1/10th as good

That is an odd thing for an architect to say.  Given my interest in how the land is different at Wild Horse, Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Dismal, Awarii and The Prairie Club, what is it about the land at Sand Hills that makes it far superior?  I agree that it is different.

[Brian Potash]

I'd sure love to.  If nothing else, to ensure victory in the annual MSU/UM matches.

Is there such a thing? 

[JC Jones]

A sure victory or MSU-UM matches?  If the former, yes, if the latter, so the story goes.

Of course Jud Tigerman's presence on the UM team all but ensures an MSU victory anyways.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'd sure love to.  If nothing else, to ensure victory in the annual MSU/UM matches.

Is there such a thing? 

Brian, send him an IM before he further pollutes this thread.

[JC Jones]

My original comment was relevant, John.  Your questions took the thread in another direction.

[John Kavanaugh]

My original comment was relevant, John.  Your questions took the thread in another direction.

Then answer why you won't join. If you can not afford the dues that is one thing but if you feel the cost per round would be too high that is another.  I can imagine the love you must have felt for Crystal Downs growing up and attending college in Michigan.  What I can not imagine is why someone so dedicated to the game would not then join a course they consider to be superior if it is affordable.

This is a perfect exercise in put up or shut up. 

[JC Jones]

1.  This is not an exercise of put up or shut up, this is an exercise of you repeatedly asking questions you know the answer to, for who knows what reason.

2.  You are correct regarding your assessment of my admiration of Crystal Downs.  You are incorrect in your insistence that I either a) join or b) stop expressing my opinion of Kingsley Club.

[John Kavanaugh]

1.  This is not an exercise of put up or shut up, this is an exercise of you repeatedly asking questions you know the answer to, for who knows what reason.

2.  You are correct regarding your assessment of my admiration of Crystal Downs.  You are incorrect in your insistence that I either a) join or b) stop expressing my opinion of Kingsley Club.

I honestly don't know why you don't join Kingsley.  I understand you are a successful lawyer and enjoy traveling to play golf.  You are implying much more sinister reasons than what I believe are true.

[Mike Hendren]

Possible explanations (not my opinion, but mere speculation):

Many holes at Wild Horse are not visually distinctive; and
While there is adequate fairway width in the wind, the rough is unplayable.

Bogey

[Greg Tallman]

John:

Maybe the new batch of raters are bigger snobs than the old batch?

While I like a lot of the things the GOLFWEEK rankings have done, they are the only ones to put in writing that housing around a course is automatically a detraction, and their language to voters emphasizes the aesthetic experience more than the other rankings do.  (The others leave room for it, but more on the terms of the individual panelists.)  Plus, panelists like loads of bunkers, everyone knows that.

Oh no! So you are saying we should add bunkers rather than eliminate several? Interesting.

On that note last round at Bay of Dreams I was POSITIVE I had found a greenside bunker with my second to the 9th hole... alas I was only 15 feet off the edge on closely mown turf. From the fiarway it looks as though there must be a bunker there.