THM! Alps Region - 2nd Round - #4 Old Macdonald 16th vs #12 St Enodoc 6th

[Richard Choi]

Here we go again! You have till the end of the day Fri to cast your votes.

Seed #4 - Old Macdonald 16th

Tale of the tape: Par 4, 455 yards

Why: From Ran - One of the fascinating aspects of National Golf Links of America is how Macdonald interpreted certain features from classic United Kingdom holes and incorporated them into his holes in the United States. For instance, with the Leven, he turned one of the landforms perpendicular to how it was at Leven Links in Scotland and walled off the seventeenth green at National Golf Links of America. In regards to the Alps, the one at Prestwick became famous in part because of its uncompromising nature. Not only does the golfer have to carry a tall hill with his approach shot but there is a hidden deep bunker that walls off the front of the green as well. Doak and Urbina’s interpretation of the this superb hole is more strategic and in keeping with the one at National Golf Links in that the golfer talented enough to hit a drive long down the right can often times get a good look at the day’s hole location.

[Richard Choi]

Seed #12 - St Enodoc 6th

Tale of the tape: Par 4, 378 yards

Why: From Sean – It’s an unusual Alps in that the mound is further from the green than Prestwick's and the Himalaya Bunker (the other name for this type hole!) is incorporated into the dune.   However, it is a famous hole and the approach is not easy.  This hole also has the advantage of it being possible - ever so slightly possible, but possible, to gain a view of the green off the tee.







Best Comments:

I think anyone who plays the Alps hole at St. Enodoc will remember that hole vividly for the rest of their life.

The tee shot involves strategy as to how far, and how far left you dare to go to improve visibility and the fear factor of the dune on the second shot.

The second shot(if you driven anywhere but dangerously left) is simply one of the most memorable, knee buckling, leap of faith shots in golf (to a relatively small target). And it involves one of the most dramatic vertical hazards in golf, thus is far more representative of the name "Alps"

I think St Enodoc has more tee shot interest, placement is critical both for distance and direction. The second shot is intimidating and thrilling, even with a 9 iron in hand.

[Sean_A]

Old Mac's Alps sets on the land beautifully, but I suspect that gaining a view of the green is too easy considering blindness is a key element of an Alps.  St Enodoc still has the issue of a layup drive and a view can be had with the absolutely perfect drive.  I think for me the drama of the approach at St Enodoc probably just wins the day.  St Enodoc wins.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

two great holes.
I'm going to say Old Mac may be/is probably the better hole, but St. Enodoc wins for sheer boldness(Alpiness) and memorability
quirk over design.

St. Enodoc

[Mark McKeever]

St. Endoc

Mark

[Mark Saltzman]

.

[Giles Payne]

St Enedoc

[Richard Choi]

Unless Tom or Jim jumps in, this is going to be a quick match...

[Tom_Doak]

I'll jump in.  I'm sure I'm considered completely biased, even though I shot a career-low round at St. Enodoc, which included a birdie at the 6th, and I'm a huge fan of the course in general.  Don't count this as a vote, but I'll make the contrary case.

It is indeed an impressive hill you've got to carry at St. Enodoc, and if that's the only criterion for victory here, then it should win the overall prize.  Then again, if the 16th at Old Mac already eliminated the 3rd at Gleneagles, then there must be something more involved, no?

I think the hole at Old Mac should win because of the green and the bunkering around it.  St. Enodoc's green is a relatively small target, but clearing the hill is pretty easy unless you've hit a crap tee shot, and there is really nothing to the green, with everything outside the green funneling down unless it gets caught in the rough.

And I think, so far, I'm the only one who's offered an opinion based on actually having played both holes, multiple times to boot!

[Richard Choi]

I am going to cast my very first vote in THM for OldMac 16th as it may be my favorite hole in the entire resort.

Too bad KP is next week. That would have been the boost that the 16th needs.

Where is Tim?

[Sean_A]

Tom

It looks to me like Old Mac's Alps is in name only.  The entire design seems to lean toward negating the the Alps.  The frontal assault (which seems an easier route in off the back of the Alps) from the left looks to be eliminated by rough or at least in the lap of chance with the rough.  For these reasons I wouldn't consider Old Mac's 16th an Alps, more of a half Alps - almost as if the designer doesn't like the idea of an Alps. 

Ciao

[Pete_Pittock]

Old Mac.
Visibility of the green after the drive? Give me a break. The dune at St Edonoc can be avoded by playing left, and if I remember the fairway slopes right to left. This is a par or birdie hole as long as you don't foozle the second.
I think the proper way to play OM is up the left side, especially if the gorse is up on the right. Better angle and shorter distance. The drawback to OM for me is that with moderate length the best play is around the dune as a 'par' 5. Superior green site and bunkering,
proper flighting and clubbing is needed if the ball is running. 

Plays:  St Enodoc once, OM 3 time. Vote: Old Macdonald, especially with resistance to scoring.

[jeffwarne]

Old Mac.
Visibility of the green after the drive? Give me a break. The dune at St Edonoc can be avoded by playing left, and if I remember the fairway slopes right to left. This is a par or birdie hole as long as you don't foozle the second.
I think the proper way to play OM is up the left side, especially if the gorse is up on the right. Better angle and shorter distance. The drawback to OM for me is that with moderate length the best play is around the dune as a 'par' 5. Superior green site and bunkering,
proper flighting and clubbing is needed if the ball is running. 

Plays:  St Enodoc once, OM 3 time. Vote: Old Macdonald, especially with resistance to scoring.

tell the guy in my group who hit a slightly thin second at St. Enodoc that it's an easy hole (smiley)
Not real easy to get your drive enough left at St. Enodoc to see the green , unless you risk tall grass or the ball running off to oblivion

Am I the only guy here  who missed this green ?(solid strike but I didn't get any noticeable funnel from the right)

[Tom_Doak]

Tom

It looks to me like Old Mac's Alps is in name only.  The entire design seems to lean toward negating the the Alps.  The frontal assault (which seems an easier route in off the back of the Alps) from the left looks to be eliminated by rough or at least in the lap of chance with the rough.  For these reasons I wouldn't consider Old Mac's 16th an Alps, more of a half Alps - almost as if the designer doesn't like the idea of an Alps. 

Ciao

Sean:

The frontal assault, blind from the left, is a better angle to every hole location and makes the hole shorter, to boot.  Those driving to the right (or just getting pushed there by the wind) think they are getting an advantage by sometimes seeing the flag, but it's not the case, and that bulkheaded bunker comes into play much more from that angle, as does the bunker to the right of the green.

The only part of the Alps we didn't like was the cross bunker going all the way across the front on the straight-in approach.  Plus, with the severe downslope in that area, we couldn't figure out how to build a bunker there, anyway!  So, we left a bit of an opening for a running approach to the player who stayed left and didn't shy away from the blind second.  I don't think that decision was anti-Alps, although I'm not sure that C.B. Macdonald would agree.

[Garland Bayley]

Am I missing something? I see no bunker in front of the green at St. Enodoc.

Let's just call St Enodoc a himalayas hole and give the alps title here to Old Mac.

Or, to put it another way,
Have not yet played St. Enococ, but 16 at Old MacDonald is forever etched in my mind.

Old MacDonald

[Tim Bert]

#16 is the easiest birdie at Old Macdonald.  I haven't played St Enodoc.  I'm sure I'd love it, but I'm bitter that it beat my nominee from Yale in a bogus last-second victory.

I vote for Old Macdonald.

[Pete_Pittock]

#16 is the easiest birdie at Old Macdonald. 

Huh? Please defend, unless it is the only hole you birdied. Under what conditions?

(P.S. I'm 0/54 at the course.)

[JC Urbina]

Richard,
Since you asked if I might jump in.

I am going to abstain from voting on this one.  From the very start of the project I was looking forward to creating this hole. 

Several reasons why,

 Prestwick was the very first golf course I visited on my tour of links land golf in the middle 80s and I have a picture of me and Perry Dye on the tee next to the Alps hole at Prestwick

Karl Olson gave me a tour of The National  and one of our first stops was the 3rd hole  "The Alps"

When I convinced Tom to move the routing to the North it was because of the natural hollow for a green and ground that I thought would be an ideal location for the Alps hole.

Of all of the holes that Macdoanld thought were ideal, The Alps was considered to be one of the finest two shot holes in golf.

Pete  Dye would usually build a hole like the Alps on some of his 80s designs, I had a chance to see most of them while working for the  Dye's so that was always in the back of my mind.  Places like Old Marsh in Florida and The Dinah Shore course in Palm Springs.  Each complete with a bell to ring when you were finished playing the hole.

You can see how much this one hole created in many different era's has continued to make an impression on me.

I have never played St Enodoc but it really leaves a lasting impression with that large dune protecting the green.  Someday.

 

[Tim Bert]

#16 is the easiest birdie at Old Macdonald. 

Huh? Please defend, unless it is the only hole you birdied.

Bingo!  I was just kidding about the easy birdie. We played into a moderate winter wind.  I hit a nice tee shot on the left side of the fairway. Played it blind and hit an ok 2nd shot. It didn't feel spectacular and I wasn't sure if it would be in a bunker or on the green or somewhere else. I assume it got a favorable bounce down the slope. Pretty long putt, I'd say at least 30 to 40 feet, not really trying to make it from there, and it rolled right in!  I got to ring the bell as my reward.

[Sean_A]

Tom

It looks to me like Old Mac's Alps is in name only.  The entire design seems to lean toward negating the the Alps.  The frontal assault (which seems an easier route in off the back of the Alps) from the left looks to be eliminated by rough or at least in the lap of chance with the rough.  For these reasons I wouldn't consider Old Mac's 16th an Alps, more of a half Alps - almost as if the designer doesn't like the idea of an Alps. 

Ciao

Sean:

The frontal assault, blind from the left, is a better angle to every hole location and makes the hole shorter, to boot.  Those driving to the right (or just getting pushed there by the wind) think they are getting an advantage by sometimes seeing the flag, but it's not the case, and that bulkheaded bunker comes into play much more from that angle, as does the bunker to the right of the green.

The only part of the Alps we didn't like was the cross bunker going all the way across the front on the straight-in approach.  Plus, with the severe downslope in that area, we couldn't figure out how to build a bunker there, anyway!  So, we left a bit of an opening for a running approach to the player who stayed left and didn't shy away from the blind second.  I don't think that decision was anti-Alps, although I'm not sure that C.B. Macdonald would agree.

Tom

For a lot of people seeing the green/flag is an advantage - thinking is believing.  I am curious why there isn't more room to the left over the fairway bunker for the frontal assualt especially as you suggest that the wind may be prevailing off the left?  My issue about the right side of the fairway as not Alps-like is that big hitters can work their ball that way.  A lot of these guys won't have to worry about the Alps bunker, but they do gain the advantages of hitting back into the wind (?) and seeing the dance floor.  This is a situation where length eliminates nearly all of what the Alps is about.  I don't know what CBM would say to that and I understand that he was your guide as it were in this project. 

Pete (and anybody else)

That second to St Enodoc's 6th is far harder than you suggest because the target is very small, it doesn't gather (probably like it should) due to rough and its easy to end up on the back of the green with a slippery putt down the slope.  The farther left in the fairway the better because it offers a straight rather than angled shot, but there is nasty rough just off that fairway that takes away any hope of reaching in two. 

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Pete  Dye would usually build a hole like the Alps on some of his 80s designs, I had a chance to see most of them while working for the  Dye's so that was always in the back of my mind.  Places like Old Marsh in Florida and The Dinah Shore course in Palm Springs.  Each complete with a bell to ring when you were finished playing the hole.

Jim:

Did you ever hear Pete actually refer to any of those short par-4's you are talking about as Alps holes?  I didn't.  He said something to me about them being like a hole at North Berwick, but it took me a while to figure out which one he meant -- the 14th.  It's most easily understood by the first one he built, the one at Long Cove, with the water behind and beside the green representing the Firth of Forth [but a lot closer!].

[Mark Pearce]

Tom mentions the 14th at NBWL.  Why isn't that an Alps (indeed, why isn't the 17th)?  If it's because the 14th at NBWL doesn't have the front bunker, then surely St Enodoc, with its bunker so far away from the green, isn't one either?

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

It isn't an Alps because it didn't get nominated.

The problem with this whole exercise is that most courses are not built so that all the good holes can be easily categorized.  And since North Berwick is OLDER than Prestwick, you can be pretty sure the 14th was not modeled after the Alps.

[Matt_Ward]

Can someone tell me what's the carry off the tee to hit over the Alps bunker at St Enodoc ?

I see the hole listed at 378 yards and just wanted to know.

thanks,

[Tom_Doak]

Can someone tell me what's the carry off the tee to hit over the Alps bunker at St Enodoc ?

I see the hole listed at 378 yards and just wanted to know.

thanks,

Matt:

I think it would be somewhere between 300 and 320 yards to clear the top of the dune -- which is also 40 feet above you.  Not many guys will make that one.