Galloway National: A Fazio Course I ACTUALLY LIKE

[Joe Bausch]

Matt,

There are many I haven't played.

But Plainfiled is my #1.

The others I'd need to really think about to 'rank' them.  Choosing amongst Hidden Creek, Hollywood, ACCC, Hamilton Farm, Ridge at Back Brook, Neshanic, Mountain Ridge, as well as others. And my favorite growing up in the '80's...Francis Byrne

Have you played The Executive Course MB?

[Michael Blake]

You mean Seaview? 
No.

[JR Potts]

Jim:

I had the fortune of playing both courses last year on the same day.  My opinion is a little tainted as we walked both courses and I was exhausted during the last 5 holes at Galloway.  That said, I found both courses to be fantastic.  Galloway is tough tough golf course.  It is every bit Fazio with penal bunkers; however, the greens were the best Fazio greens I've played. The walk is difficult but mostly due to the undulation and length of the course (also could have been the time of the day)  The conditioning of Galloway was also first rate.

Hidden Creek was much more playable and enjoyable.  Hidden Creek was not difficult but was a little more interesting than Galloway.  That said, Galloway could likely hold a Nationwide event....Hidden Creek could not.  The conditioning at Hidden Creek was a little to lush for the way it was to be played but that was a condition acknowledged by the Super at HC.  

I really really enjoyed both courses....I would play HC 7 out of 10 times but what a problem that would be to have to be forced to decide between the two of these courses.

My favorite holes were #11 at HC at #2 at GN....only because I made two on both holes.

Finally, for every bit as bad at the GN clubhouse is.....HC's is that good.  Both ranges on the other hand are great.

Look forward to going back to both.

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

I have no issue with Plainfield -- since it falls to #2 for me after PV.

The gap between #1 and #2 is just a bit beyond the gap between #2 and #3 in my mind.

I don't see The Ridge at Back Brook even sniffing a top 20 position in the state. Amazingly, GN has more chops in so many ways when compared to a course like RBB.

I also don't see Hamilton Farm and Neshanic among the elite -- although the former might grab a spot for a top 20 placement for me.

Hidden Creek presents an interesting counterpoint because you have a C & C layout which made the most out of a site that is above average for the greater AC area but is not really exciting overall. GN shows what TF can do because the green complexes are quite demanding and the need for superior driving of the ball is called upon in which more rigorous way than many other TF courses. If anything I see ACCC as a distant 3rd when the two I just mentioned our thrown all together.

Jim B:

I like the playability dimension HC provides -- a bit wider and less intense on the tee game dimension - no doubt the yardage equation plays a role in that. The two courses present a stylish difference -- C&C aren't upping the ante on difficulty side -- TF, on the other hand, at GN presents much more harsher penalties for the slightest tug or push of a tee shot. The tee game dimension is what separates the two -- I also think the recoverying options around the greens at GN are a good bit more challenging.

[Jim Briggs]

Thanks Ryan and Matt.

Matt - It's interesting - the couple in question score comparably (handicap differential wise) at both HC and Galloway.  He's a 7 index, she's an 11, so both good players.  In trying to reconcilie how they score comparably on both, perhaps it is the following:

While it seems there is the harsher penalty at Galloway for the slightest tug or push off the tee, it would seem that HC may extract a similar penalty in score.  It just does it in a more friendly (and sneaky) way as, because of the width off the tee it doesnt seem harsh (or explicitly demanding) until you start adding up the score and realize you really were coming into the green from a bad angle despite the hit fairway and gave some shots away.

Speculation on my part for sure as I've not played Gallaway...I for sure leave the greens at HC muttering "damn those guys (C&C) are good" as mark down a higher score than hoped, so I think the above is plausable.  Perhaps they are an exception in this case.

Anyway, don't want to make this a HC thread.  Just was looking to give JNC some color on the comparison question he asked before.

Thanks for you thoughts.

Jim

[JR Potts]

I've been writing some guys directly regarding this topic and one used the best adjective to describe GN - sterile.  I think it hit the nail right on the head.  Like I said, it's a really good course but there's no soul to the course....no feel.  It's just one good golf hole after another with nothing else.  I can't put my finger on what it's missing....but soul may be the best way to describe it.

HC has soul.  The course is comfortable.

Sorry to keep rambling but that's my gut.

[JNC Lyon]

I disagree with the idea that Galloway National has no soul.  The starting and finishing holes along the water were very soulful to me.  Standing on the 18th tee in the late afternoon sun, legs tired after 17 holes of a tough test, looking out across Reeds Bay, then turning back to face the diagonal tee shot on the home hole? That moment was hard to beat.  Sitting in the deep snow with a few days of midterms ahead of me, I'm trying to grasp that moment, that feeling, again.  If I could pick a moment to return to right now, that one would right up there with the best of them.

Is that enough soul for everyone?

[Kyle Harris]

I disagree with the idea that Galloway National has no soul.  The starting and finishing holes along the water were very soulful to me.  Standing on the 18th tee in the late afternoon sun, legs tired after 17 holes of a tough test, looking out across Reeds Bay, then turning back to face the diagonal tee shot on the home hole? That moment was hard to beat.  Sitting in the deep snow with a few days of midterms ahead of me, I'm trying to grasp that moment, that feeling, again.  If I could pick a moment to return to right now, that one would right up there with the best of them.

Is that enough soul for everyone?

Seems more situational, than soulful.

[Jerry Kluger]

I have played both a number of times and there is no question in my mind that GN is a much tougher test and if I took routing out of the equation I would have to rate it higher.  But I would put HC right behind it and HC is a course I would much rather play on a regular basis.   

[Joe Bausch]

Time for the second nine today.

#10. Par 4 (475 yards).



Pretty neat green.  I did not know Fazio watched the Winter X Games for the inspiration of this half-pipe green. 





#11. Par 5 (501 yards).









#12. Dogleg left par 4 (375 yards).

[Steve_ Shaffer]

 Galloway was developed by Vernon Hill ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Hill ) with hopes of hosting a major championship- The PGA. He hired Dick Smith, a local pro and former President of the PGA, as Galloway's Director of Golf. For whatever reasons, the PGA chose not to select Galloway. Hidden Creek is a "member's course." Galloway is a test of golf and could host The PGA.

[Mark McKeever]

Interesting tidbit Steve!  From some of those back tees, it definitely has the teeth to host the PGA.

Mark

[David Federman]

I have played GN about a dozen times, walked with a caddy about half of those. Always enjoyed the course. Don't understand comments that there is no strategy/choices/angles. The holes are memorable, greens fantastic. I have never played this time of year, but I love its dormant look before the reeds and grasses grow six feet high during the summer. It looks great.

[Jerry Kluger]

It's a shame that you cannot see the contours and slopes on those greens - they are some of the most fun greens I have played.  Without a caddie you will often be fooled when trying to read them.  

I would agree that the course would be a good test for a PGA but I don't see how it could handle the crowds and it would be a disaster if those green heads were out.

[JNC Lyon]

I disagree with the idea that Galloway National has no soul.  The starting and finishing holes along the water were very soulful to me.  Standing on the 18th tee in the late afternoon sun, legs tired after 17 holes of a tough test, looking out across Reeds Bay, then turning back to face the diagonal tee shot on the home hole? That moment was hard to beat.  Sitting in the deep snow with a few days of midterms ahead of me, I'm trying to grasp that moment, that feeling, again.  If I could pick a moment to return to right now, that one would right up there with the best of them.

Is that enough soul for everyone?

Seems more situational, than soulful.

Can't it be both?

Joe,

Glad you used my term to describe the 10th green.  I am a huge fan of the halfpipe green, and I think it is especially effective as a fun but forgiving green on a long par four.

11 is the weakest hole on the golf course.  The bunkering is out of proportion with the rest of the golf course.  Mark and I agreed that the saving bunker by the water on the layup was very strange.  The green is also a bit weird.  I think this hole is a short, gambling par five that Fazio just did not pull off well.

12 is a bit awkward off the tee, but the greensite makes up for it.

[Mark McKeever]

There seemed to be plenty of room to make 11 continue straight towards 12 tee.

Mark

[JNC Lyon]

There seemed to be plenty of room to make 11 continue straight towards 12 tee.

Mark

That's definitely true.  I don't understand 11 at all.  It's the one hole at Galloway that does not make sense to me.

[Kyle Harris]

I disagree with the idea that Galloway National has no soul.  The starting and finishing holes along the water were very soulful to me.  Standing on the 18th tee in the late afternoon sun, legs tired after 17 holes of a tough test, looking out across Reeds Bay, then turning back to face the diagonal tee shot on the home hole? That moment was hard to beat.  Sitting in the deep snow with a few days of midterms ahead of me, I'm trying to grasp that moment, that feeling, again.  If I could pick a moment to return to right now, that one would right up there with the best of them.

Is that enough soul for everyone?

Seems more situational, than soulful.

Can't it be both?

Of course, but that's a very specific situation. I wonder if you'd feel the same way after playing some golf and then seeing the place in July. I've not played the course, but to say it has soul after one playing is a bit of a stretch.

[Chris Roselle]

Galloway was developed by Vernon Hill ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Hill ) with hopes of hosting a major championship- The PGA. He hired Dick Smith, a local pro and former President of the PGA, as Galloway's Director of Golf. For whatever reasons, the PGA chose not to select Galloway. Hidden Creek is a "member's course." Galloway is a test of golf and could host The PGA.

Galloway might not have a PGA Championship on its' resume yet but in 2012 it will host the USGA Men's State Team Championship (September 19-21).  The Golf Association of Philadelphia has used Galloway numerous times for many different USGA Qualifiers that we administer and it has always been a great test of golf.

[John Shimony]

As to the contours and trickiness of the greens at GN, I can attest.  On the redan-ish 8th I had a putt from the front right portion of the green aaaaaallllllllllllllll the way across to a back left pin.  With a small pond fronting the front left of the green one would think the putt had to break that way at least a little.  Because of a small hump a few feet in front of my ball and god knows what else the 25 yard putt didn't break an inch.  My caddie had the right read but I just didn't listen.  Fool.

[Joe Bausch]

#13.  A brute of a par 4 (470 yards) that has slightly elevated tees but runs gently uphill from the beginning of the fw on.









#14.  This par 3 (219 yards) is currently being tweaked at the back of the green.



The back of the green is cut up and now laying in front of the green:



The view from the back shows the job in progress.  I'm not certain, but I believe the back part of the green has been raised a bit.



#15.  Another real nice 2-shotter (409 yards).

[Mark McKeever]

I really liked 15 a lot.  John and I were marveling at the green contours and thinking about where some good summer pins would be.  Sort of has a Merion hole 16 feel from the landing area.

Mark

[John Shimony]

Yes, Mark, I remember.  In the third photo of the 15th hole above, we thought that only a pin position in the swale visible on the left side of the green and back toward the camera and then to the right within the depression that the pin is in would be manageable.  I'm sure other locations are used but I'm also sure they're treacherous.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

I have huge respect for GN but hosting any professional event is no small chore -- let alone a major.

The AC market is also a big smaller than what the PGA of America would like although that doesn't mean the folks with the PGA won't go to places with less size -- see Kiawah as a good example of that.

Many people like Hidden Creek because functionally it doesn't beat you up as Jim mentioned -- it will take strokes but more of one here and one there.

GN is about driving the ball first and foremost -- you need sufficient length with proper positioning because hitting too long a club into those targets is a sure fire recipe for high scores.

Like I said before GN would easily make my personal top ten in NJ -- only Bayonne, among the more modern courses has the goods to crack such a listing. Hidden Creek, for me, would be in a second 10.

[Joe Bausch]

Ok, time to finish up the tour!  And Sev has offered to have me back later in the season when it is green and with long fescue areas which should make for a very nice contrast in the pics.  I'll hone my short game at the nearby Executive Course and plan to bring GN to its knees. 

#16.  Par 5 (532 yards).









#17.  Par 3 (249 yards).









#18.  Dogleg right par 4 (442 yards).









I have built my usual photo album with all pics taken on this day (~200) and in much larger size.  Visit it here if you wish:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/galloway/