The Champ Crushes Them ...

[Matt_Ward]

So amusing to see how the pros -- Rory S the lone exception -- have been crushed by The Champ for the Hodan Classic.

What's so funny is that the tour people have been quite kind with tee and pin positions.

The 17th is under 160 yards and only had two birdies with just one or two groups to go. The 17th can play as much as 190 or so yards and when the pin is far right you have your work at just making sure you don't make worse than four.

The 18th is also over par for the day -- a rarity given the skills these guys have.

[Matt_Ward]

Johnny Miller just stated on the telecast -- the 17th is playing to an incredible 3.6 stroke average today -- highest for such a par-3 hole in 21 years !!!!

And, the hole was set-up in a fairly e-z way -- just under 160 yards and a frontal pin -- love to see these turkeys play from the tip tee and the pin cut in the rear right side nearest to the H20.

[Matt_Ward]

I would love to see The Champ has all the key players playing there for something worthwhile -- a World Golf event would be great.

Get any serious wind and when you have that much H20 lurking you get real problems.

Lee Westwood looked completely lost playing today.

[Mark Pearce]

One of the dullest golf courses to watch televised golf that I have seen. I turned it off this evening, which for me is really rare.  Tough, yes.  Boring, very definitely.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

That is BS big time !

Boring because guys are intimidated by the challenge provided.

How tough can a hole be like #17 which plays under 160 yards and yields a 3.6 stroke average ?

How bout guys play better shots and adjust to the wind ?

The idea that these "guys are good" wasn't happening - play it on the players and give the course a thumbs up for making them have to earn it.

[jeffwarne]

One of the dullest golf courses to watch televised golf that I have seen. I turned it off this evening, which for me is really rare.  Tough, yes.  Boring, very definitely.

You didn't enjoy watching every group play #15?
Sorry maybe that was #17
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Matt,
Those guys ARE good.
turkeys?

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt: You and I totally disagree on this one - the course is junk! Tough doesn't equal quality - sure, make it narrow and shallow and throw in water and wind and you have junk! I cannot imagine anyone watching that tournament would ever want to play that course unless they wanted to inflate their handicap and they have unlimited access to golf balls.  I wonder how you would like Bandon if it was narrow and there was water on nearly every hole - it's great architecture because it is windy and there is plenty of width. As you would say: Come on man, get on board!

[Terry Lavin]

I don't know that I'd like a steady diet of this, but I don't mind watching the pros suffer every now and again.  Does it seem a tad contrived, a bit artificial, a lil bit punitive?  Sure, but "regular" tough golf courses get that way for me regularly, so I sort of like seeing this on television.  Let's face it, they play courses this tough one or two weeks A YEAR!  Bring on the bogeys.  Knock half the tee shots in the water on a par 3.  Hit it in the crap on every tee shot.

They'll shoot 19 under next week.

[Mark Pearce]

Mark:

That is BS big time !

Boring because guys are intimidated by the challenge provided.

How tough can a hole be like #17 which plays under 160 yards and yields a 3.6 stroke average ?

How bout guys play better shots and adjust to the wind ?

The idea that these "guys are good" wasn't happening - play it on the players and give the course a thumbs up for making them have to earn it.

Matt,

I appreciate we may not agree but please let me be the judge of what I find dull. Like Terry, I enjoy the occasional really tough course or even hole.  I really enjoyed watching the pros struggle with the 10th at Riviera, a hole they should find easy on the card but don't, because of the architecture. 

But this course is flat and boring.  Flat and boring doesn't mean easy, though.  Give me 25 mile winds and more water than any course can need and I can give you "difficult".  Doesn't mean good.  Oakmont is good.  Carnoustie is good.  This is dull.  In my opinion.

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

Just because you think and believe it -- doesn't fly in my book. How is the course unfair -- what was done to trick the players. Help me out there is par-3 17th -- less than 160 yards and the stroke average is 3.6 !!! Less than 160 yards -- got it. Not some hole at 240 or more yards.

Have you ever played The Champ ?

The sad fact is that the pros are getting too fat and happy with the likes of other courses where they can miss and still escape with par. I like to see pros earn the scores -- Rory did that in round 2 so the low numbers are there -- you have to play consistently to do it. All of these other ch"u"mps were heaving their guts out -- start to go south on The Champ and it will snowball into even higher numbers. Nothing boring about watching as course being extremely finicky in giving away anything.

The pablum that architecture doesn't exist at The Champ is likely anti-Florida bias -- of all people me saying that but The Champ is far beyond the usual scorch-the-earth type course that "these guys are good" love to plunk and plunder.

Dull ?

Sure. How bout people hitting fairways -- how bout world class pro's know hot to hit a mid-to-short iron to a well defended green -- of less than 160 yards. Yeah, you're right -- blame the course for that. Makes perfect sense to me.

You embrace the classic courses but The Champ uses what land it has and Team Nicklaus did well there. Nothing like having to play solid golf to score. Is that too much to ask for? Stick with your opinion Mark -- I'll be sure to do likewise.


Jerry:

You sure you're watching the same telecast.

How bout a good old fashioned butt kicking.

These guys can't handle the course AND that's even AFTER the PGA Tour guys actually pushed up a few tee boxes and provided a few gentle pin placements.

Let me point out Rory S did fire a 64 so the course can be scored upon but it won't ever give away one single birdie without real execution. The sad fact is that the guys are getting what they deserve -- how bout not seeing pro golfers not throw up on themselves.

My God Jerry -- a less than 160-yard par-3 and the stroke average is 3.6 !!! Highest in 21 years for a par-3 hole on the PGA Tour. And they're lucky they played from middle tee length with a frontal pin placement. You and all those others who hide behind the sad excuses for poor shotmaking -- need to realize that wind plays the extra element in handling The Champ -- no quarter is given and like I said I'd love to see all the other players who skipped playing the course to have shown up just to see the same frustration ont heir faces. Rory has shown plenty thru 54 holes -- like to see him finish it off in style.

Terry:

What's "contrived?"

What's "artificial?"

Nicklaus did a first rate job in taking the previous course and elevating the stakes. I've played The Champ several times and if you hit the shots properly you will score -- Rory did in round 2 with his sensational 64. The simple fact is that you have pros who have feasted on all that other junk food tournament courses they have played prior and now they have to really step it up. Amazingly, the course gets little mileage but plenty of you folks here on GCA just guish about Doral -- or about TPC / Sawgrass -- The Champ is just an unrelenting layout that demands the most complete and consistent shotmaking -- you need to realize that a faulty swing on any number of the holes can result in DB or even TB -- especially on the par-3 holes at the end -- best of all, the par-5 18th played obver its stroke average because the pampered "these guys are good" are used to playing two shots and two putts for an easy birdie. That doesn't happen here. Hats off to The Champ -- replace the "a" with another vowel and you can size up the quality of the play thus far.

[Mark Pearce]

Matt,

Where's your argument?  Apart from resorting to the word "fair" (not used in either of my posts) it seems you have nothing to say about the architecture just a delight in the fact that it's hard.  Like I said, hard I like.  But hard with interest.  The very fact that you are so in love with the 17th says it all for me.  It's hard because the pin is just over water and the wind's howling. 

I didn't introduce the classic/modern debate you seem to want to have.  I have less experience of modern architecture because there's less of it over here.  However, I've seen enough to know that there are modern architects who can do hard without having to resort to water as the main hazard.  Indeed I am a member of a club with one classic course (Old Tom Morris) and one modern (Hanse) and I prefer to play the Hanse course, despite the fact that even at 6500 it plays to a SSS of 74 and CSS often goes out to 77 if there's a wind.  That course is tough but playable.  And much more interesting than the "Champ" if the TV coverage is anything to go by.

[Adam Clayman]

The comment I heard Johnny make yesterday was about how the guy didn't hit some sort of knocked down shot. Preferring instead to go with some aerial version to attack, totally mis-gauging it and ending up in the water.
My first thought was that it wasn't "the guys" fault if his equipment isn't designed to hit those types of shots. (knockdown)  But it is the games problem that causes people to think that these guys are the best guys on the planet. IMO, It's not a full examination of the sports skills. Rather a repetitive, one dimensional, showing of who can hit it the highest and softest. Shinnecock '04 comes to mind as another version of this issue, with it's revisionist history as being a negative thing. Only from a different tack.

I suppose identifying the weakness of the modern game makes the course worthy of discussion. And I'm, with Terry in that seeing the best guys on the planet play like us, is refreshing, or at least satisfying. Similar to the ones who watch NASCAR for the crashes, I suppose?

[PCCraig]

I find "the champ" to be very boring television. I don't think the course is that hard for these guys, it's just that there is a ton of wind and there is water everywhere.

[Dean Stokes]

I find "the champ" to be very boring television. I don't think the course is that hard for these guys, it's just that there is a ton of wind and there is water everywhere.

Not too hard for these guys? Have you seen the scores? wind is a natural element that is part of the game and water is part of the golf course - avoid it! I guess if the us open didn't have 8 inch rough the course may play easier eh?

I do think this is a better course to watch when you have played it. Holes like 11,13 and 14 don't look great on tv but all three are very good holes.

[Carl Nichols]

They're also playing a par 72 course as par 70 ..... So while it's undoubtedly playing hard, it's not as if Sabbatini is only 9 under on the normal course layout.

[Jerry Kluger]

Carl: Technology has made the par 72 into a par 70 - they hit their drives 320 yards so 495 yards is a driver and a 7 iron - they can handle that.

Matt:  Let's see now, the best players in the world are averaging 3.6 strokes on a 160 yard par 3 so let's figure this out.  An average guy won't be able to hit the green at 140 yards - sounds like a lot of fun to me.  Please give me a break - we can all design a course where no one can score but that proves nothing - the course needs to reward a well played shot but when it gets to the point where there is virtually no way to play the course then it is junk. You want to take a robot out there that makes perfect swings every time then okay but otherwise you need to reward good shots and well played recovery shots but it's tough making a swing from 6 feet of water.

[Dean Stokes]

Carl: Technology has made the par 72 into a par 70 - they hit their drives 320 yards so 495 yards is a driver and a 7 iron - they can handle that.

Matt:  Let's see now, the best players in the world are averaging 3.6 strokes on a 160 yard par 3 so let's figure this out.  An average guy won't be able to hit the green at 140 yards - sounds like a lot of fun to me.  Please give me a break - we can all design a course where no one can score but that proves nothing - the course needs to reward a well played shot but when it gets to the point where there is virtually no way to play the course then it is junk. You want to take a robot out there that makes perfect swings every time then okay but otherwise you need to reward good shots and well played recovery shots but it's tough making a swing from 6 feet of water.

so I guess #17 at Sawgrass is junk then? and there they are hitting 9 irons! just hit a solid iron shot Jerry....that is all the holes 15 and 17 require....if you are not confident of doing that then aim big and left and try to get up and down...just don't go right. What is junk about that?


Also #6 and #10 are being played from up tees that made them into par 4's.

[Jerry Kluger]

Dean: Sawgrass is a 9 iron for them.  Do you really think that Els or McDowell or for that matter any of the top pros in the world don't have confidence when they make a swing! Put on a fan and have it blow at a uniform 25 MPH and they wouldn't have a problem but the wind doesn't blow like that so it can go up or down 5 or 10 MPH from one moment to the next which can be 5 or 10 yards or more and then what happens. 

[jeffwarne]

Carl: Technology has made the par 72 into a par 70 - they hit their drives 320 yards so 495 yards is a driver and a 7 iron - they can handle that.

Matt:  Let's see now, the best players in the world are averaging 3.6 strokes on a 160 yard par 3 so let's figure this out.  An average guy won't be able to hit the green at 140 yards - sounds like a lot of fun to me.  Please give me a break - we can all design a course where no one can score but that proves nothing - the course needs to reward a well played shot but when it gets to the point where there is virtually no way to play the course then it is junk. You want to take a robot out there that makes perfect swings every time then okay but otherwise you need to reward good shots and well played recovery shots but it's tough making a swing from 6 feet of water.

I read constantly about how "Augusta envy" is ruining the game.

Which would do more for the growth of the game, building more wide open strategic courses like Augusta with a couple heroic holes?
or building more courses with water right, water left,water short on every hole(in a typically windy enviroment)
yes a couple of holes at ANGC have recently narrowed (particularly from the TOURNAMENT tees) but it's still a WIDE open course, with large corridors from the member's tees.

I'd say "Bear trap" envy is far more damaging to the development and speed of the game.
how'd you like to be out there on a busy day at the resort in such a wind behind mutiple med-high handicap groups. It would speed things up if you could just use your best score on 15 and 17 because they're the same hole.
Why not shrink the green and enlarge the lake so the average score could be 4.2?
Is it good for potential developers and golfers to see such design glorified?

and speaking of Augusta envy, ANGC is green from overseed because it's ONLY open the winter when bermuda doesn't grow (and they have winter,ice, and snow in Augusta)
PGA National is in south Florida! and they've overseeded it to death-as green as Augusta

[Rick Shefchik]

I think Adam is on the right track here. I don't see the point of criticizing the best players in the world because they aren't playing as well as usual on a course that asks them to do something they don't have to do 50 weeks of the year. They're businessmen. They practice the shots that will earn them the most money. If they played The Champ every week in windy conditions, damn right they'd have their knock-down shots dialed in.

[Dean Stokes]

Dean: Sawgrass is a 9 iron for them.  Do you really think that Els or McDowell or for that matter any of the top pros in the world don't have confidence when they make a swing! Put on a fan and have it blow at a uniform 25 MPH and they wouldn't have a problem but the wind doesn't blow like that so it can go up or down 5 or 10 MPH from one moment to the next which can be 5 or 10 yards or more and then what happens. 

yes i do believe they don't have confidence stood on 15 and 17 tee at The Champ....they are human....they use golf  head doctors and they regularly end up left of left! So do they have a lack of confidence or just make awful swings on those two hole? you tell me!

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

Your predictable and tired lament shines once again.

Blame modern design -- such as The Champ -- with being nothing more than a demolition derby design. Far from it. Dean said it spot on -- people who complain simply from TV and HAVE NOT played the course are doing the TV armchair QB analysis. The pros have been led to believe the Hope Classic and the no wind approach situation is the norm -- where people can shoot -20 for the week and think they are immensely skillful. The problem is that the Tour needs more such courses where exposure to the elements makes pros think very hard.

Watch the qualities of the 16th hole -- players have to decide -- go deep down the fairway it narrows considerably -- with H20 on right and left with the fairway bunker on that side. However, should you do that the angle to the green is much more open. Lay back and the angle to the green becomes even more daunting. These situations are there at The Champ -- your deep left field seat analysis would not know that because you simply mouth the party line that such modern designs are one dimensional. Far from it.

Check out the 18th -- the dog-lef left invites the bold play down the left side. Few will do it -- then if you go too far right the 2nd shot becomes critical to get into a position for one's 3rd. A superb closing hole where any score is indeed possible.

Sorry Adam -- but your viewpoint is merely a cut and paste rendition that doesn't add up here.

I can tell you this -- get the old Tiger on The Champ and he wins in a walk. Ditto for any of the prime time players from the past -- Watson and Trevino would liove it -- they walk to the 1st tee with a few shots already ahead because the others are psyched out from the get go.

Jerry:

Stop with the inane thoughts that pros canbe psyched out with a key hole or swing during a pressure pack moment. That's what The Champ and Bear Trap does. It maskes players uncomfortable -- knowing full well that the slightest deviation from a solidly played shot can result in a mega swing of shots. Yes, the wind does impact things but what Nicklaus did there is no different than what Pete Dye did in making players feel very uneasy at certain critical moments. That's grand stuff in my book.

Jerry -- if someone claims to be A WORLD CLASS PRO and can't hit a green from less than 160 yards then the issue is the person -- not the hole. Pros don't like to look foolish and overmatched. Under your reasoning -- shall I call it that (?) -- the issue is the hole(s) and not the pros. Baloney.

Rory showed the course will yield a low score and his play has demonstrated that. The other guys have the fear in their head and that has come from what Nicklaus included into the mix.

Dean:

Well said -- the same people who pan The Champ are gushing with love when one sees a US Open with 7-8 inch rough and the pros barfing on themselves. Then such golf is classic and it's what makes for grand golf theater. I laugh when I hear such inconsistencies.

FL golf has its issues but The Champ provides an elastic dimension that can provide for the full range of players PROVIDED one understands your own limitations and plays the appropriate tees and pin poisitions.

Mark:

I've played The Champ several times as wel as watched the telecast and been at the facility one time when they hosted it. I have seen firsthand what the shots are about and frankly Nicklaus provided plenty of alternate routes and decisions for the player to decide. It's intimidating no doubt because the pros fear failure that can result in DB or TB. Your limited perspective is 100% gleaned from the vantage point of the seat in front of one's TV. So be it -- for you.

The course can be scored upon and Rory S has shown that. If NO ONE could score then the architecture and set-up would be a claer failuire. Far from it.

Mark -- let me say this again -- the freaking 17th hole is less than 160 yards -- do you NOT understand that ? My God -- pros are barfing all the place because they get some wind and they can't hack it. I see -- blame the hole because the pros can't hit a decent shot.

You don't know The Champ because if you had played it you would see the playable features and the design qualities of a number of holes there. The closing par-5 18th is one of the best par-5's in all of FL and given its flat terrain it adds excitement to all the shots one plays. Birdie is REALLY EARNED there instead of the tap-in automatics the pros generally face.

No doubt the velocity of the wind dictates plenty but that is golf in the winter / spring transition in FL. The issue is that top players are unsure of themselves and when you have that momentary lack of confidence the design qualities of The Champ will rise up and make themselves known. I see that as an appropriate counterpoint to the self-hyped "guys are good" theme of the PGA Tour. The Champ simply says to back that up when called upon.

Jeff:

If you think #15 and #17 are the same hole -- you missed the boat on that one. Yes, they are par-3 holes but play in vastly different ways because of the way the wind hits them. The green designs are different and the club selection will be vastly different.

One other thing -- PGA Natonal has a range of facilities and people should only play The Champ if they understand what they are facing. No different than someone going to Bethpage and believing they can handle the Black. Nothing wrong in my mind when you have multiple courses that provide a full and different approach to what is available at that facility.

[archie_struthers]

I've played it a lot and it is hard!  However , it's kind of fun to see the Pros's are human .  Believe me they are very good but you can't overpwer this particular golf course by hittng it 350 ....

[Joe Bausch]

They started the final round early b/c of the threat of rain, so don't go checking PGATour.com, etc, if you are planning to watch the tape-delayed coverage later!

[Adam Clayman]

Adam:

Your predictable and tired lament shines once again.

Blame modern design -- such as The Champ -- with being nothing more than a demolition derby design. Far from it. Dean said it spot on -- people who complain simply from TV and HAVE NOT played the course are doing the TV armchair QB analysis. The pros have been led to believe the Hope Classic and the no wind approach situation is the norm -- where people can shoot -20 for the week and think they are immensely skillful. The problem is that the Tour needs more such courses where exposure to the elements makes pros think very hard.

Watch the qualities of the 16th hole -- players have to decide -- go deep down the fairway it narrows considerably -- with H20 on right and left with the fairway bunker on that side. However, should you do that the angle to the green is much more open. Lay back and the angle to the green becomes even more daunting. These situations are there at The Champ -- your deep left field seat analysis would not know that because you simply mouth the party line that such modern designs are one dimensional. Far from it.

Check out the 18th -- the dog-lef left invites the bold play down the left side. Few will do it -- then if you go too far right the 2nd shot becomes critical to get into a position for one's 3rd. A superb closing hole where any score is indeed possible.

Sorry Adam -- but your viewpoint is merely a cut and paste rendition that doesn't add up here.

I can tell you this -- get the old Tiger on The Champ and he wins in a walk. Ditto for any of the prime time players from the past -- Watson and Trevino would liove it -- they walk to the 1st tee with a few shots already ahead because the others are psyched out from the get go.

Matt,  I said nothing about this courses design. I said the MODERN GAME. Show me one complaint about this courses quality in my post and I promise to wake up and smell the coffee. Pardner.

Way to go out on that limb, taking the old Tiger. Remind me to bet with you often.

But since you brought it up, equating difficulty with quality, is your repetitive rant. BTW, I'm watching it at the moment and just love the rows of stationary soldiers accentuating this courses design. I love how they go with the varied flow of the property.