Choosing a private club - when might anything trump the course design?

[Mitch Hantman]

For me personally, although I enjoy great architecture as we all do here, for day in/day out play, proximity, ease of getting a convenient tee time, cost, are important.  However, for me, conditioning is paramount.  I grew up playing Bethpage Black, when the conditioning was poor, and it is much more fun, for me, to play a course in peak conditioning as close to year-round as possible.  Plenty of time to get out and play other, fine layouts, to satisfy the need for architecture.  Conditioning is underrated for everyday enjoyment of the game, for me. 

[Sean_A]

Cost is my over-riding factor.  Location is second.  Architecture-year round playing conditions are a joint third.

I am surprised by folks givng the members so much thought.  To me, folks is folks.  Group dynamics exist whether or not a guy wears $5000 or $500 on his back.  If you are comfortable in your skin there shouldn't be many crowds you can't get on with.  

Ciao

Sean- I think anyone that is going to make the level of commitment  that is required to join a private club better have a pretty good idea that the social makeup is a good fit. I can get along with most people but that doesn`t mean I want to play golf and socialize with them on a regular basis.

I am not sure what social makeup means, but fair enough.

Ciao

[Brad Wilbur]

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned walkability yet.  Alot of the recently designed courses here in the southwestern US have such long green-tee distances that it precludes the thought of walking the course.

[Tom ORourke]

Not just walkability, but can you even get out there without a cart? I just joined a club in S.C. with 2 courses. The primary focus was cost. But I can walk the courses 5 days a week and after 1:00 on weekends. I met some members before I joined and every one of them was so enthusiastic about the courses, the other members, the service, and the social aspects that it made a real difference in how I perceived the club. I met guys who play 5 days a week, each day with a different group of guys, and they were so willing to give me their names and addresses to get in their groups that you knew you would be welcomed. I know clubs where the general feeling is that you will be there a few years before you can break into the cliques that only play together. The courses are good, but that is almost an afterthought when you are 59 years old and don't need to go to the back tees every day. You can see when a course will feel like home, and that is a big factor.

[Jay Flemma]

If I cant walk it, I won't join.

[Wade Whitehead]

If nothing trumped course design 80% of courses would have no members.

WW

[Jim Jackson]

For what it's worth, this issue was posed to me by a good friend of mine this week, who was deciding between an "old guard" club in his hometown (that had the sack to up their initiation fee AND assess their members 10K last year) and a multiple course club with a resort component (at half the up front and no assessments).  Here was my rundown of the issues for him to consider, in order of importance:

1.  the opportunity to play with like-minded, similar-aged, similar-skill players
2.  access to a good course(s) that you don't get tired of and challenge your game - not necessarily "architeturally superior"
3.  hassle free tee times - and making sure that you can ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS finish in 3.5-4 hours - deal breaker if not
4.  practice facilities that allow you to stop over for an hour and not get jacked with or nickel and dimed for range balls
5.  A decent burger and cold brew after the round.  Any other good food is a bonus but NOT worth paying extra for.  The more food options there are, the more your food minimum. 
6.  A place that your family likes(or at least can tolerate), and that the kids can enjoy and be treated well by the pros and staff

[jeffwarne]

For what it's worth, this issue was posed to me by a good friend of mine this week, who was deciding between an "old guard" club in his hometown (that had the sack to up their initiation fee AND assess their members 10K last year) and a multiple course club with a resort component (at half the up front and no assessments).  Here was my rundown of the issues for him to consider, in order of importance:

1.  the opportunity to play with like-minded, similar-aged, similar-skill players
2.  access to a good course(s) that you don't get tired of and challenge your game - not necessarily "architeturally superior"
3.  hassle free tee times - and making sure that you can ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS finish in 3.5-4 hours - deal breaker if not
4.  practice facilities that allow you to stop over for an hour and not get jacked with or nickel and dimed for range balls
5.  A decent burger and cold brew after the round.  Any other good food is a bonus but NOT worth paying extra for.  The more food options there are, the more your food minimum. 
6.  A place that your family likes(or at least can tolerate), and that the kids can enjoy and be treated well by the pros and staff

Jim,
That's a good list.
I'm curious why if a course otherwise provides good value, you would place free range balls in your top 4 criteria for club selection.
If you're unwilling to subsidize the the steak buyer, why should he subsidize your ball hitting habit?
I've found giving unlimited range balls leads to poor turf conditions and a lot of aimless ball beating, as opposed to focused practice.
For instance, in my paying range days, I would always chip all the balls, go pick them up, and do it again before striking them onto the range.
If you got charged $8 a week for the balls you hit, yet the club was otherwise cheaper than the alternative, wouldn't you relish the chance to have better turf and a less crowded range.
I must say I find it very frustrating to watch adults and kids knock over pyramids of balls and have three in the air at once.

[Jay Flemma]

Jay: If you are going to Florida looking for outstanding gca you might as well turn around and go home because they aren't inviting you to join Seminole and beyond that there isn't much worth joining just because of the architecture.

Then go play Delray Dunes and get ready to be happy!!  Great design...

Paging Joel Z...paging Joel Z...pickup on line J...

[Steve_Lovett]

Jay: If you are going to Florida looking for outstanding gca you might as well turn around and go home because they aren't inviting you to join Seminole and beyond that there isn't much worth joining just because of the architecture.

Jerry,

Please tell me about your personal experience with Florida clubs and golf course design that's the basis of your comment.  Are you speaking from direct experience, your perception, or what you've heard from others?

[Jim Jackson]

Jeff:

My current experience is like the one you described, a once quarterly "range program" where those of us who choose to do so pay the fee and hit whatever we want.  I find that I never hit more than 20-30 balls at a time, and rarely, outside the college guys and aspiring pros, do I see anyone beating balls like that. 

Regardless I still financially support the Porterhousers of my club despite the fact that I rarely eat there myself.  I'd love to be able to pare it down to bare-bones services as numerous previous threads have suggested, but have realized that sentiment in the club is against it.

 

[Barry Stern]

So this is a topic that i've given a lot of thought to, as i've searched throughout the MET NYC area for the past two years to join a club.  I currently drive up to 75 minutes to one of 3 or 4 good public courses, getting out at the crack of dawn mid-week.  I've wanted to join a club because there is something nice about settling down;  i've dated, had one round stands, some long term relationships, some pleasant reunions after a break, returns to old flings....but there is something about having a place that you get to know intimately, where you have the consistent experience of something you appreciate and love, but that at the same time changes day to day in subtle ways in its challenge and opportunity (am i taking the marriage analogy too far?).  Here is what I have considered.

1.  It's first about the course.  If it's not a really enjoyable, interesting course, I won't even look at it.  If i'm going to put down the cash, it just has to be a really special course that I"m going to WANT to play day in and day out over the other options.  This speaks to architecture, walkability, the balance between challenge and playability, and feasibility:  I won't consider a course where i can't walk, that i can't get to in under 35 minutes, and where you can't get a mid-week round finished comfortably under 4 hours (I don't play much on weekends).

2.  The financial picture:  the up front nut, the monthlies, and the unknown unknowns (assessments) are all factors.  Is it a club with a lot of debt to finance, a diminishing membership left to carry the financial load, a club with a very wealthy membership to whom a hefty assessment does not hurt so much, and club with a history of regular or significant assessments?

3.  The "hang" - i love that expression, but could care less about it.  I love playing with down to earth, fun partners, and i love playing alone.  As long as no one is going to give me a hard time, make me miserable when i play with them, and as long as i can get out when i need to get out, with people whom i'll by and large enjoy, i'm good.

4.  Pool and tennis?  why not.

[Paul Jones]

Jay,

This is what got me so intrigued with New Orleans CC.  I never heard anything about the golf course, so I was astonished to find out that it was complete full - even after Katrina while other courses that are better Metairie CC and English Turn are not full.

In all fairness, I have yet to play NOCC, but have talked to 12+ people that all said the same thing - NOCC is a great club to be a member of and the golf course is good but not great.

[Bill_McBride]

On the one hand, there are far more golf courses that I don't get along with than there are people.  This argues in favor of the golf course.

On the other hand, there are a lot of factors off the golf course that come into play.  They've been adequately addressed, but they definitely factor in. 

What Cary said probably makes the most sense.  It is, in some respects, like choosing a wife.  If you choose her for how she looks and acts when she's young and beautiful and you've only known her for a couple of years, without thinking about how she'll look and act in 20 or 30 or 40 years, you're making a tragic mistake.

So then you get a new one? 

(From a guy who's been married 43 years....)

[Duncan Cheslett]

I joined a golf club for the first time last November. For me the main criterion was the course - I played several local places but once I found Reddish Vale - an early MacKenzie layout - there was only ever going to be one winner.

Fortunately for me the annual fees are around the lowest locally, there is no joining fee, it is less than 15 minutes from both home and work, and I have found the membership to be friendly and welcoming. A no-brainer!

The fact though, that other clubs locally are also thriving despite inferior courses and higher fees suggest that all players' priorities are not the same.

[Jud_T]

The average guy mainly cares about location, price and where his buddies play IMHO.  While these are all important criteria, if the course isn't up to snuff you will tire of playing it after several hundred rounds.  Think about all the courses you've played, set aside any notion of history, prestige or exclusivity, and take a hard, honest look...Project yourself ten years down the pike, averaging 25+ rounds per year and think how actual playing characteristics may be viewed in that light.  Is it a championship venue that is too long or difficult to be fun on an everyday basis?  What's the focus of the maintenance practices?  Can you get a game easily?  Are weekend tee-times required?  Are the club tournaments fun events or a grind? What does the club balance sheet look like? Has there been more than 1 assessment in the past decade? What percentage of the club's budget goes for things other than golf? Are there restrictions on when women, children or guests can play? Can you easily afford the annual dues or would it be a bit of a stretch in a down year? Do your wife and/or kids play? These are just a few of the questions one should be asking before taking the plunge...

[Carl Nichols]

While these are all important criteria, if the course isn't up to snuff you will tire of playing it after several hundred rounds.

Jud,
I agree with your entire list of questions, but most of them have nothing to do with the architectural quality of the course.....

[Jud_T]

Carl,

Sorry, I was rambling.  What you look for in architecture is also a personal decision.  Better players will want a course that can test their game from the tips, although I'd think all but the very best players would tire of playing a brutal championship track like Butler National week in and week out as their only club.  Better to look for a multi-course facility in this situation IMHO like Medinah where there's another option for a quick relaxing round or a round with a high handicap guest.  To my mind a course with ground game options that is maintained to feature them, and ideally some regular wind, is quite appealing as there's any number of ways to play these type of shots and one doesn't tire of them as easily after many plays as " Oh, eighth hole, 150 yard 8 iron 5 feet right of the pin..." or clubs that are overwatered with lush fairways where there's no roll.  Also a course that presents a variety of demands on your game.  My old club was one where the main challenge was length.  It got quite one-dimensional and tiresome after a number of years.  And I'd say an interesting set of greens and green-surrounds that allow for a variety of short-game options would be paramount.  Nothing like hacking and hoping out of deep greenside rough for the 500th time to make you long for a cold beer and a baseball game on TV.

[Jay Flemma]

I like Barry's common sense reply.  For me, the architecture is the lion's share of the equation, then a mix of common sense financial considerations and the members.  Something like a great imprimatur as a club - such as hosting venerable events - is a bonus.