Choosing a private club - when might anything trump the course design?

[Jay Flemma]

Something interesting happened to me down in Florida.  I really liked what I saw in a CLUB even though the courses were lack-luster.

All of you that told me all about Quail Ridge and the Society of Seniors were spot on about one thing - their passion or golf was infectious.  Even though the courses are typical '80s penal architecture, the members were as sweet as honey.  They also seemed of one mind - to be a part of something special and participate in their shared imprimatur:  senior amateur golf.  It was inspiring to see.  It really opened my eyes...their love of golf and unswerving devotion resonated not just with me, but to a lot of you who wrote to me about it before I went down there.  They do a great thing for golf there:  great players + great altruism = a really fun time.  It was like a college reunion.

While I wouldn't join Quail because I need better architecture in my home course, and while I know course design is the first consideration, it got me to wondering:  in choosing a club, how much do other factors come into play?  The other members?  Certain amenities?  Having family members that also want to use the club?  Certain fun events like tournaments, both for the members and for outside play like Qualifiers?

I know some of you enjoy being members of many clubs, but I think the best I can hope for is to conduct a painstaking search and join one or two clubs at most.  When might you say, "I'll choose course B over course A because even though course A is a little better, all my friends are at course B," or "I can really save a lot of money at course B...course A is not as good a value" or course B has more options for the wife and kids"  or whatever reason?

[Cliff Hamm]

Jay...this may or may not fit what you are looking for.  I was in Florida also, l
looking for a place to rent next year with possibility of purchase in the future.  Got to the driving range.  Silence.  No one was talking.  Women... everything matched perfectly.  Reeked of elitism and stuffiness. Played the course ...absolutely loved it.  Excellent architecture, Florida or not.    Fine for many but not a good match for me.

Ended up signing a 3 month lease for next year at a course that is not the architectural equal, but which was a better fit.   Architecture is important but not everything.

[David_Tepper]

Jay F. -

I recall a similar thread here on this topic from a year or two ago.

Aside from the golf course, the standard considerations in joining a golf club would have to be (in no particular order) cost, location, access to the course when you want to play and the nature of the membership. I think high marks on several of those might trump the fair to middling GCA of the course itself.

DT
 

[Jay Flemma]

David - When, if ever does it trump excellent architecture?  Or is it all a matter of individual taste?

Cliff, can you throw out some examples of where you might join off the top of your head?

[Bill_McBride]

The thing you have to remember when joining your PRIMARY club is that you will be playing it a lot.  If it's boring or ugly, you will not be happy.  All those other attributes can be important, but if you won't enjoy playing your everyday course, it will never be a good situation.

Obviously cost is critical - if you can't afford it, including all the ticky tacky add ons - it won't work.

[Carl Nichols]

I would rather play a good course with people I like than a great course with people I don't, or a great course alone. I realize the choice is never that stark, and that most places are probably big enough to find at least some people you enjoy, but I can absolutely imagine joining a less good course because I liked the members and vibe better.

[Jason Topp]

Location, cost, practice facilities, and people are all more important to me than quality of the course.  Having said that, I wouldn't spend significant money to join a club unless I really liked the course.   I like many of the public courses in my area and I would save about 75% of the cost if I only played public golf.  Also there are so many courses built in the last 20 years that tee times are not the issue they were back then.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jay,

Who gets to decide for you what is great architecture?  I hear some people even join Mike Strantz courses thinking they are great.  Nobody joins a course for the architecture, they just claim they would, if only...

[Sean_A]

Cost is my over-riding factor.  Location is second.  Architecture-year round playing conditions are a joint third.

I am surprised by folks givng the members so much thought.  To me, folks is folks.  Group dynamics exist whether or not a guy wears $5000 or $500 on his back.  If you are comfortable in your skin there shouldn't be many crowds you can't get on with. 

Ciao

[Jud_T]

I think it's a very personal decision.  Both the course and the membership matter.  With repeated exposure either can become quite tiresome if they're not up to snuff...

Sean,

I agree that folks is folks, but the culture, focus and general milieu of each club can differ greatly...

[Mark Pearce]

For me a factor that can override architecture is how welcome you are made to feel and how easy it is to integrate into the club.  I want to know that I'll be able to get games and enjoy playing with the other members.

[Jeff Shelman]

I agree with many on here that architecture/the course isn't the most important thing to me.

Choosing a club is a balancing act.

Location/access to the course is crucial. You can say that that 40 minute one-way drive is fine because the golf course is great, but what about when you don't have all day? Or you only have time for 9 or 13 holes after work? And how easy is it to get a time at the spur of the moment? There's a top club here that is pretty much wall-to-wall member and 3 guests every weekday afternoon. If you were a member there and wanted to get out because your afternoon meeting got cancelled, it might not be an option. Great club, but I wouldn't want to deal with that.

Cost, obviously, is a consideration. If the best club in your town is $40K to get into, but the third best club (which is still pretty good) is $5K or nothing to get into, that's a factor.

Family considerations. If you have a spouse and kids, what do they want? To many people, no pool is deal breaker. And you want the family to be happy because if they want to go out there and hang out, it gives you more of an opportunity to play golf.

Club vibe/membership. Is it a place with pretty much only BMWs, Mercedes and Lexus vehicles in the lot? Or are there some of those, but also some Toyotas and Hondas and an occasional mini-van? Where do your friends play? Is it a club where people like to gamble a lot? Is it laid back? Is it stuffy? Or are people welcoming? Is the staff nice? Or is the pro or GM a jerk?

Every person has to answer those questions for themselves, but I think there are plenty of things that can trump the course design alone. You could choose a club based only on course design and everything could turn out just fine. Or you could choose based only on course design and it might not be that great.

[Mark McKeever]

I dont know if anything will beat out good architecture for me..

Mark

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff, can you throw out some examples of where you might join off the top of your head?

Jay, my preference runs to the low key New England type course with little or few pretenses.  Cape Arundel comes to mind.  Prout's Neck, has a Boston brahmin kind of feel, wealth without showiness.  Both of these clubs offer nothing in the way of dining and no one even takes your bag.  Yale also comes to mind as does Newport. 

Architecture is a must, but one must feel comfortable.  Many of the 250k and up initiation fee clubs have excellent architecture but not my cup of tea.  Again, it is an individual thing.  What works for some does not work for everyone.

[Jerry Kluger]

I was a member at TPC Avenel which is now renamed something else and it was really bad.  The course was built for a PGA tour event and was very difficult for the average player and is even more difficult now.  There was a large membership but no membership camaraderie - the course was built by the PGA Tour to make money so all they cared about was how many unaccompanied guests paid some outrageous fee to play the course and it didn't matter that it took them more than 5 hours to play.  The only upside was that it was not member owned so there would not be an assessments.

My present club has a good course which is very walkable and it is always easy to get a game and play in under 4 hours.  Granted, there are some better courses architecturally but they cost a whole lot more to join and very few members walk and carry their own bags.  It doesn't have to be great architecture to make it fun and certainly doesn't have to be great architecture to make it worthwhile to join.  

[Mike Hendren]

Cost and convenience.  For great architecture one need only participate on this site, be patient and be a plesant fellow.

Bogey

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Ditto to Jasons comments..
My particular primary concern are the practice facilities, both range and short game.
I may not be a huge fan of Fazio courses but his practice facilities would make me look at any of his clubs if the location and price was right.

[Dan Boerger]

Absolutely there are factors that would trump course design. Many mentioned here already, but I would also add course maintenance to the mix.

[Jay Flemma]

Cost and convenience.  For great architecture one need only participate on this site, be patient and be a plesant fellow.

Bogey

That's a nice sentiment bogey!

Michael...two months till the Travis!!!

[Sean_A]

I think it's a very personal decision.  But both the course and the membership matter.  With repeated exposure either can become quite tiresome if they're not up to snuff...

Sean,

I agree that folks is folks, but the culture, focus and general milieu of each club can differ greatly...

Jud

I wonder if there are cultural/focus/milieu issues that can't be picked up by either looking at the course, the house and or the dues?  I think I can probably tell at least 95 clubs out of 100 if I want to join or not with ever meeting a member. 

Ciao

[Jerry Kluger]

Jay: If you are going to Florida looking for outstanding gca you might as well turn around and go home because they aren't inviting you to join Seminole and beyond that there isn't much worth joining just because of the architecture.

[Jeff Spittel]

It's all about the hang. Most of my best friends socially are the dudes I tee it up with on the weekends at Bushwood.

[Jay Flemma]

Jay: If you are going to Florida looking for outstanding gca you might as well turn around and go home because they aren't inviting you to join Seminole and beyond that there isn't much worth joining just because of the architecture.

I'm not looking in Fla...I have a few places in mind though, all of which have excellent architecture.

And John K if you thnk Bulls bay or MPCC Shore aren't totally superb, you might need to go see them...you have Strantz all wrong:)

[Tim Martin]

Cost is my over-riding factor.  Location is second.  Architecture-year round playing conditions are a joint third.

I am surprised by folks givng the members so much thought.  To me, folks is folks.  Group dynamics exist whether or not a guy wears $5000 or $500 on his back.  If you are comfortable in your skin there shouldn't be many crowds you can't get on with.  

Ciao

Sean- I think anyone that is going to make the level of commitment  that is required to join a private club better have a pretty good idea that the social makeup is a good fit. I can get along with most people but that doesn`t mean I want to play golf and socialize with them on a regular basis.

[cary lichtenstein]

It's like selecting a wife, if your looking for a trophy, you may not be all that happy in the long run. Pick your clubs for the friendships you'll develop over the years, anything is shortsighted