If you were a mega developer and were going to build five golf courses

[Gary Slatter]

  You have to have variety.No body is going to travel for the same thing.That is why Bandon is superior.It is what St Andrews is lacking,which may explain what happened to The Castle Course.It also helps to have different landscapes.

  Anthony

Anthony, I think St Andrews has a great mix in its courses.  Something for everyone.  The Castle even has its fans, I know both of them.  The Links Trust courses are perfect for the community, from beginners to experts. The surrounds are also good, adding to the golf scene - Dukes and Devlin offer carts for the mobility challenged, Kingsbarns brought the nine hole loop and hotdogs to the area.  St Andrews is just what a mega developer should build.

[jeffwarne]

To back up a bit, surely you don't charge an owner to interview.
and wouldn't you agree he's going to learn something from you(especially a new to the business owner) during such a process?
and you about him?

edit-for two months I've been unable to get an emoticon, yet I typed three ? marks and the frowny mark came up

Whether I charge or not is not relevant.
Your in.tent is what I'm talking about.
You don't just want an interview - you want ideas also.
And you don't want to pay for those ideas.
I don't think that intent is reasonable.

The emoticons have always been here - the buttons are for those that don't know what makes one...  

Mike,
I think you may have misread my intent on interviewing 3-4 candidates. The reason would be to find the best guy for the job and one that would suit the owners terms and personality.
Do you really think a naive owner is going to take your ideas, not hire an architect, and go build the course on his own?
If you interviewed me to be your head pro, wouldn't you ask me how I intend to run the operation to maximize whatever it is you want your course to be? (profit maximization/member satisfaction/whatever)
In an effort to get the job, if i happen to drop a world beating idea on you but you decide not to hire me because I want a million a year or am otherwise incompetent, are you not allowed to act on any ideas I may have dropped on you during that interview?

that's probably a bad exaample because you probably know more about the business than most HP candidates could offer, but I can assure you most owners would know very little about the business and almost anything you would offer as an architect would be educational to them.

Do I owe you something for the emoticon lesson?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Nuzzo,

I'd agree that the developer might determine the general theme, either directly or through the choice of architects.

This thread has its roots in a charitable venture I was asked to get invovled with.

Years ago, a charity wanted to build a golf course and employ disadvantaged individuals to help them out.

The person with this vision wanted six golf course designers to design three holes, reflecting their generally accepted styles.

The theory was that the charity could get the land at a reasonable price, or donated, and that they would pay each designer $ 1 for their efforts.  Thus, reducing development costs substantially.

I found it a unique and intriquing idea.

Vying for the optimal portion of the land and determining the general routing would be a problem, although, the course was in Florida on a relatively flat piece of land.

It's almost an offshoot of "The Architect's" course in NJ.

Another reason for the thread centers on GCGC and Old Macdonald.

I've often wondered why GCGC wasn't replicated over the last 112 years.
A simple, minimalistic design that's highly functional, fun, and challenging.

Then, I thought of Mike Keiser's vision, his desire to craft a "theme" course as a tribute to Charles Blair Macdonald, the man who routed NGLA in short order.

So, looking at GCGC, Old Macdonald, Bandon in general, Kohler and Pinehurst, I asked myself, if you had the opportunity to design a golf resort, a golf destination, how would you go about it.

Certainly, I have preconceived views.
I'd want a GCGC like course, I'd want a CBM-SR-CB replica course, but, I'd also want other styles or themes.

Uppermost in my mind is diversity, courses that don't resemble one another in style or theme.

Is one constrained by the property ?
Forced to craft a theme dictated by the property ?
Are Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes that different from one another ?

So, I was wondering, what would appeal most to golfers ?
What would make them travel 1,000, 3,000 miles or further ?
To stay for up to a week ?

One would think that a coastline would almost have to be a necessity.

The more I think of this exercise/project, the more respect and awe I have for Mike Keiser, the Kohlers and the Tufts.

[Sean_A]

I don't know who I would retain, but my goal would be to use one archie.  I would probably only do one course at a time with a contract for one course.  It may take a lot of years to build this place so I wouldn't want to be tied to a decision made way back when if I happen to find I hit it off with an archie I admire.  In any case, I would have to have confidence that the archie could build a Simpson inspired course and a Fowler inspired course as well as have ideas and concepts for at least two completely unfettered original designs. 

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean Arble,

Have you considered the loss of your ability to market your five courses through the use of only one architect.

Surely, that has to be a huge marketing negative for a destination golf resort.

[Steve Lang]

;<))    

Hmmmm. its 2011...  prices are down, even for plywood.. we'll have a design competition, 5 paid designs, 7400 yards max, construction ready plans are deliverable with schedule of expected material take-offs.    

Location is within 2 hours drive of an international airport between the 30th and 35th parallels in the USA

Get me Palmer/Seay..  to build a fun course, 4 sets of tees, they get first choice of available property, senior respect

Get me Nicklaus.. and tell him Arnie's building one, he gets one Signature Course,

Get me Player.. tell him arnie and jack are also on the tab,

Get me Pete and Alice Dye.. one more legacy oppportunity for them to beat the pros..

Get me Fazio.. tell him that if he charges too much, it'll go to some unknown..

Get me Charlie G to set up an all-star review panel to work on re-imbursable basis to present results to gca.com website


oooops, sorry, just call The Dye's..  we already have the other guys with courses in The Woodlands,

now get me C&C, Doak, Devries, Nuzzo, and Brauer...  we'll have a design competition, 5 paid designs, 7400 yards max, set each of them up in a condo free of charge, let them roam the sites and negotiate for where to build their courses..

[Sean_A]

Sean Arble,

Have you considered the loss of your ability to market your five courses through the use of only one architect.

Surely, that has to be a huge marketing negative for a destination golf resort.

Pat

The key is to get the first course right so the development isn't one and done.  The archie doesn't much matter in this instance so long as they can deliver the product and I can see eye to eye with him/her.  Almost as important is the second course and I don't think using the same archie who scores a hit with the first is a bad move at all.  Once there are two top notch courses with a rep I think marketing takes care of itself in that the product sells itself.   Any other courses can either be icing on the cake or the actual creation of a bigger cake.  Either way, it ain't bad. 

BTW - My Simpson concept course would be that 3rd design - if I was still alive. 

Ciao 

[cary lichtenstein]

First, it's all about the land. Second, bandon is the model

[Ian Andrew]

What do you envision for each of your five courses and who would you retain for each theme ?

Since its my project I would obviously do it all myself.
I would form a small but very capable team and build it together with them.
I would build them slowly, around one every two years and none of them would resemble the others.
I would make this my life's work and die happily try to perfect them over time.

But that's me....

[Mac Plumart]

First off, all courses have one set of tees.  This is not one size fits all.  Each course is designed specifically for one target market.


Course #1...private member course...fun, quirky, interesting greens.  6,500 yards.  Preferably no rough, wide fairways...this seems to open up options and facilitate fun.  Mike Nuzzo is the guy on this one.

Course #2..."Championship Course"...7,700 yards.  Ball busting test of golf.  Long, very penal, nasty rough...think US Open set up.  Drew Rogers is my choice for architect here.

Course #3...Short Course...Tom Doak design, less than 6,000 yards.  Tom has said he thinks he could pull this off and still have it be a good/great course.  Here is his chance.

Course #4...Par 3 Course...I want fun and interesting.  Great greens will be the key and interesting bunkering.  Mike Riley is the guy here.

Course #5...Over-the-top quirk.  Blind shots, wild greens, insane bunkers (deep, long, hard pan, waste bunkers, pot bunkers, shale and stone vs. sand...whatever I want insane), give me extreme template holes...280 yard redans, off the scale Alps holes, Knolls, etc.   Yardage...who cares.  Match play only.  This will be Pine Valley collaboration style here: Me, Eric Smith, George Bahto, Ian Andrew, and Ben Sims are doing this one.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Too much brain damage to answer all of that especially the why. Yes I would use different architects for each. I would let the land dictate part of the theme and the private public resort equation balance the rest.

[Eric Smith]

Mac,

When do we break ground? Can I implement my hillock with hidden bar idea?