[Rick Sides]

Yes I read the newsletter and check the email daily as to the schedule.  I'm not saying that a private course should be completely vacant so you can just walk on at all times, I know there is a protocol.  Let me give yo an example of my course this morning.  I went there just to hit some balls and there was no room on the range. Ok that's fine, lets head to the putting green.  Well both putting greens are full of people putting.  I was not even going to try to get a game together because it honestly looked like a a bus stop with the amount of people showing up to drop off off their clubs.  Now I ask you, what is the difference between this course, which I pay hundreds of dollars a month to be a member, and the local muni where you can drop 40 bucks on the counter to play?  I was just wondering if anyone else experiences this frequently at your club?  Obviously if this continues, I will find another club.

[Carl Johnson]

I wrote this post a few weeks ago and since that post  I was greeted by a new surprise - the club now has acquired the local high school golf team.  I know high school golf is awesome for many kids, its just when I show up at the club and 30 kids are waiting on the tee box and the members were never notified, I have a problem.  An already crowded course just went to its weekdays from 3 to 6 having 9 holes filled because the golf teams in this part of NJ are big.  

Rick, a quick question.  Who is making these decisions for your private club?  Is it a member-elected board?  A manager hired by the member-elected board or a golf committee appointed by the board?  An outside management company?  Regardless, communications are key.  I agree with you that at a minimum members should have been informed, in advance, about the limitations on their play that would result from the high school team's practice.  I am assuming that this was not a one-off situation, but the beginning of a program of regular daily practices for the season from 3 to 6.  Correct?

Rick, any answer to my questions, above?  Thanks, Carl

[Don_Mahaffey]

I have two kids who play high school golf. I have hosted many, many HS and junior events from the AJGA Rolex championship to the everyday HS practice.
Without a doubt clubs has an obligation to support junior golf, but junior golfers and most importantly the folks who manage junior golf programs need to have their act together and quite honestly often they have no clue. The kids need to be taught to respect the course and the members who host them. In my experience whenever a team has strong leadership, the kids have rarely been a problem. When you have a coach more interested in playing free golf then attending to his team, you will have problems.

When I've hosted HS teams there was always a limit on how many can play, usually around 10 each for the boys and girls teams. In addition, usually I worked with other courses in the area so we all shared the load, which I believe is the key. If you as a member know that on Tuesdays the kids will be out you either get there before them or don't play that day. Big deal. It is when they are there every single day, beat the range to death, and are all over the place when it becomes a problem. If all the clubs in the area share the load, HS golf practice and matches are rarely an issue. Its when some opt out and others, to their credit, support the team alone that the problems arise. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Rick sounds as if this course is not going to be for you. In simple terms every golf course has a finite number of rounds governed primarily by daylight hours. If you have 8 minute interval tee times you will get more play than 10 minute, if you have 2 ball only less rounds, it really is a numbers game, if you look a busy times and want to play every saturday morning, you can only really have 120 members that use that spot, perhaps the same for sunday, and friday and a bit of midweek, a club wth very active members can only really have 500 members. A very active member is one that plays 50 times per year. In raw terms if you are a member playing sub 40 rounds you are desired and if you play plus 60 you are a high user encroachng into others space.
We have a junior group/college team of about 20 that are very high users of the practice facilty and there are times when they are a pain in the ass to the high fee paying members because they come as a group.
To get the balance right is very hard, having bookable tee tmes is very important when you get busy and thsat might need to stretch to the practice areas as well.

[Rick Sides]

Carl,
I believe it might be the GM.  I know that a golf course would have a hard time saying no to money and new members,  but this course I'm talking about seems to have money as its main priority.  As for the closed Mondays I speak of, it is not used for maintenance, it is used for outings that are booked every single Monday when the members cannot play at all or even go to the range.  If it was used for maintenance, I would completely understand because the course needs to be taken care of during summer months. Like I said before, I think high school golf is a great outlet for kids, I was just upset that our course has now taken on a big team plus the fact that all these new members have signed up and the course is completely closed on Mondays for outings.  As Adrian stated, it is probably time for me to find another course.  When a private course I pay good money to be a member of becomes like a factory, it might be time to go.

[SL_Solow]

Is this a member owned club or is it owned separately by an investor?  If member owned, do you have a management company? The question is, who is making the decisions?  If the members are in charge, you need to find out whether your views are shared.  it may be that the bulk of the menbers are satisfied with the trade offs.  You may have an owner who is motivated to keep the course full and is willing to lose members like you.  But if you are member owned and the majority (or a very active minority) are upset you can make changes if you are willing to devote the time and effort.

[Sean_A]

Its hard to imagine HS golf causing too many problems if it is done right and the HS gives back.  Firsty, I know our HS team played in the fall where typically after Labor Day the club emptied out.  Second, we were available sometimes on short notice for caddying and during big events - for free (the goal was 6 free loops per player - one per home match).  We also organized car washes at the club on a few weekends - for free.  Finally, we hosted a lunch for members at the end of the season.   

Ciao

[Brian Marion]

Rick,

if you rally like the place, work to get on the boards that make decisions and try to effect change. I would guess that you will find plenty of like minded members who agree with you (and some who don't of course)

Don't just quit and give the reason AFTER you leave. Try to make changes now for what you think is correct and give those changes time to work. If, after you have given it time and nothing has changed, then take your leave.

I know many, many members of at every course I have been a member who quickly bitch and moan about the greens, the tee, the cart paths, the member/guest, the flowers, etc, etc. When you ask them if they are on the greens or golf committee or if they have stepped forward to fix something they always have an excuse, not enough time, I pay my dues and that should be enough, its too political........

If it's worth your time to play there and enjoy the course, facilities and friendship, shouldn't it be worth your time to make it better?

[ChipRoyce]

Brian my only issue with seniors filling the course on reduced subs is if they play 5 times a week and still book 9am Saturday or Sunday which is the only time the guys sponsoring their reduced subs can play all week.

Amen brother!

[Anton]

in my experience the problem lies in management.  My father is a member at an old style club in the Lehigh Valley of PA.  Its a full country club (pool, tennis, golf, etc. etc.).  They have recently filled out their membership because a few neighboring clubs closed their doors and members flocked to my father's club.  Great news? well not so great actually.  Sure it keeps his dues down and keeps his club going but the management has decided that during prime time (Saturdays and Sundays) they would run member (and member/guest) outtings which (unless you pay to join these leagues) clogs up the course and you are stuck waiting until the afternoon to play.  My father has written numerous letters complaining how we can not go out play a leisurely round on a weekend.  Its crazy.  Leagues are great but don't run an organized event on the prime times of the course.  Poor management decision making tends to lead to problems in a lot of private clubs. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

in my experience the problem lies in management.  My father is a member at an old style club in the Lehigh Valley of PA.  Its a full country club (pool, tennis, golf, etc. etc.).  They have recently filled out their membership because a few neighboring clubs closed their doors and members flocked to my father's club.  Great news? well not so great actually.  Sure it keeps his dues down and keeps his club going but the management has decided that during prime time (Saturdays and Sundays) they would run member (and member/guest) outtings which (unless you pay to join these leagues) clogs up the course and you are stuck waiting until the afternoon to play.  My father has written numerous letters complaining how we can not go out play a leisurely round on a weekend.  Its crazy.  Leagues are great but don't run an organized event on the prime times of the course.  Poor management decision making tends to lead to problems in a lot of private clubs. 

Tony I am not so sure. In the UK we have competitive play on weekend, leisurely play is more outside of prime time. We (in the UK) figure most members like to play this way, so for us its majority. Equally I don't quite know what you mean by leagues and it might not mean competitive play.

[Rick Sides]

Well as much as I want to write a letter or an email, I'm afraid the damage is done.  I can't blame the club for wanting to make money in these tough economic times, but when a club,company, business, etc. forgets its main priority, the customer, people start walking away.  I do enjoy the club, but I'm afraid the almighty dollar has forced the decisions.  I know  the club is owned by a private owner so I think he and the GM are making these new decisions. I hope I didn't offend anyone about the high school players, they are not to blame. Its nice they have a course to play, but I'm afraid management also did this for the money the high school pays the course.

[John Kavanaugh]

Rick,

I have been through what you are feeling. If you can find the patience to wait it out I believe the course will find equilibrium. Cheap memberships work much like a classic bait and switch. It ain't ever that cheap and most new members soon switch back to their old comfort zones. Give it a year. Btw. Do not write letters, owners hate letters.

[Rick Sides]

Thanks for the advice John. I will try to ride the storm out.

[Roger Wolfe]

Rick… your plight is the same as every member of every private club.  I also sympathize with Tony Schmidtner’s comments regarding the weekend golf leagues at his father’s club.  I have been a GM for a long time and have experienced a single owner, a management company and, for the last six years, a wonderful private club.  My job, along with my staff, the committees and boards, is to balance the desires of several hundred very diverse members.  It is often uncomfortable when you know every decision you make will leave 20% of your membership out in the cold.  Communication is the key and it must go both ways.  Members need to take ownership of their clubs and seek out the truth while management and Boards need to be willing to share why the decisions were made.

We do about eight outings per year on select Mondays in the Spring and Fall.  The revenue they bring in (assume 300 members) keeps the regular monthly member dues $25 cheaper.  We would cancel them… no problem… if the membership was willing to pay another $25 per month in dues ($300 per year).  Our board decided that a few Monday outings was well worth preserving the lowest dues structure possible.

As to the Saturday leagues… every Board, pro and GM should be dedicated to getting as many MEMBERS the ability to play as possible during peak times (Friday afternoons and weekends).  Guest, spouse and dependent policies are an important part of any private golf program.  However, their significance should pale in comparision to the importance of getting as many single, full dues paying members on the course during peak times.  Dogfights and leagues and standing groups… as long as they are open to ANY member and they consistently fill up their allocated times… is the best way to accomplish this… hands down.

If you do not want Monday outings and you want to play a leisurely round during peak times… you have to be willing to pay a premium.  What has happened during the recession, and since 09/11/2001 if you really want a starting point, is that fewer and fewer folks are willing to pay the big bucks to support the perks mentioned above.  Therefore the dues get too high… the member base deteriorates… the dues get even higher… the death spiral begins.

I encourage you to seek out the truth in your clubs.  Don’t sit in the men’s grill and moan and bitch.  Nothing is more pathetic than a member who hates his own club.  Why are you still there?  If you are truly unhappy… you need to leave.  Or at least investigate other clubs… you might find you are in pretty good shape where you are.

Find the answers to why they allow high school matches.  You will discover it is almost always to support junior golf… not to make money.  Imagine if your children were on the high school golf team.  Would you encourage them to play your club?  Step into someone else’s shoes.  Seek out why the club usually HAS to take Monday outings.  Subject yourself to the masses and play in the Saturday golf league.  Learn why these decisions are made then be willing to compromise and appreciate the diversity of your membership and the how the needs of a young family differ from the needs of an empty nest retiree.

Our member/member and club championship have been held the three days over Memorial Day and Labor Day weekend for decades.  We experimented with different formats that just didn’t pan out.  This year we’ve settled on a shotgun start as early as possible.  We can’t help the people who go out of town, but we did switch to a format so the men with families KNOW when they are going to be done.  The traditionalists are unhappy with the shotgun but understand.  The wives of the younger members aren't happy losing their husbands three straight mornings in a row but are thrilled they at least know when he will be finished.  Its all a big compromise.

GM’s and pros and boards do not like conflict and, believe me, each decision is given hours and hours and hours of discussion and thought.  Do you really think management WANTS to deal with a high school match?  Wouldn’t they rather have tee times than having to organize a league every weekend?  Wouldn’t it be great to be closed on Monday instead of having to organize, manage and clean up after an outing?  Do they really enjoy dealing with unhappy members?  Come on!

Take the time to seek out the reasons these decisions are made.  You will find they are all made with the best intentions!  Once you accept why the decisions are made... only then can you really start enjoying your club!

[Tim Martin]

Rick… your plight is the same as every member of every private club.  I also sympathize with Tony Schmidtner’s comments regarding the weekend golf leagues at his father’s club.  I have been a GM for a long time and have experienced a single owner, a management company and, for the last six years, a wonderful private club.  My job, along with my staff, the committees and boards, is to balance the desires of several hundred very diverse members.  It is often uncomfortable when you know every decision you make will leave 20% of your membership out in the cold.  Communication is the key and it must go both ways.  Members need to take ownership of their clubs and seek out the truth while management and Boards need to be willing to share why the decisions were made.

We do about eight outings per year on select Mondays in the Spring and Fall.  The revenue they bring in (assume 300 members) keeps the regular monthly member dues $25 cheaper.  We would cancel them… no problem… if the membership was willing to pay another $25 per month in dues ($300 per year).  Our board decided that a few Monday outings was well worth preserving the lowest dues structure possible.

As to the Saturday leagues… every Board, pro and GM should be dedicated to getting as many MEMBERS the ability to play as possible during peak times (Friday afternoons and weekends).  Guest, spouse and dependent policies are an important part of any private golf program.  However, their significance should pale in comparision to the importance of getting as many single, full dues paying members on the course during peak times.  Dogfights and leagues and standing groups… as long as they are open to ANY member and they consistently fill up their allocated times… is the best way to accomplish this… hands down.

If you do not want Monday outings and you want to play a leisurely round during peak times… you have to be willing to pay a premium.  What has happened during the recession, and since 09/11/2001 if you really want a starting point, is that fewer and fewer folks are willing to pay the big bucks to support the perks mentioned above.  Therefore the dues get too high… the member base deteriorates… the dues get even higher… the death spiral begins.

I encourage you to seek out the truth in your clubs.  Don’t sit in the men’s grill and moan and bitch.  Nothing is more pathetic than a member who hates his own club.  Why are you still there?  If you are truly unhappy… you need to leave.  Or at least investigate other clubs… you might find you are in pretty good shape where you are.

Find the answers to why they allow high school matches.  You will discover it is almost always to support junior golf… not to make money.  Imagine if your children were on the high school golf team.  Would you encourage them to play your club?  Step into someone else’s shoes.  Seek out why the club usually HAS to take Monday outings.  Subject yourself to the masses and play in the Saturday golf league.  Learn why these decisions are made then be willing to compromise and appreciate the diversity of your membership and the how the needs of a young family differ from the needs of an empty nest retiree.

Our member/member and club championship have been held the three days over Memorial Day and Labor Day weekend for decades.  We experimented with different formats that just didn’t pan out.  This year we’ve settled on a shotgun start as early as possible.  We can’t help the people who go out of town, but we did switch to a format so the men with families KNOW when they are going to be done.  The traditionalists are unhappy with the shotgun but understand.  The wives of the younger members aren't happy losing their husbands three straight mornings in a row but are thrilled they at least know when he will be finished.  Its all a big compromise.

GM’s and pros and boards do not like conflict and, believe me, each decision is given hours and hours and hours of discussion and thought.  Do you really think management WANTS to deal with a high school match?  Wouldn’t they rather have tee times than having to organize a league every weekend?  Wouldn’t it be great to be closed on Monday instead of having to organize, manage and clean up after an outing?  Do they really enjoy dealing with unhappy members?  Come on!

Take the time to seek out the reasons these decisions are made.  You will find they are all made with the best intentions!  Once you accept why the decisions are made... only then can you really start enjoying your club!

Roger-Great post and very candid. You are correct in that "nothing is more pathetic than someone who hates his own club". Being in the midst of guys that do nothing but bitch is the wrong place to be. If you wan`t change you have to get involved and rally like minded individuals.

[Anton]

The outtings and events are great for courses.  But to have a saturday and sunday morning event (7:00-1:00) which costs extra and includes guests takes away the private club experience of other members who do not wish to pay extra for a league.  Its just poor business to double dip your membership.  Obviously it is working for some of the members.  Personally I would never pay twice to play my home course.  My father actually reduced his membership to a Social level and is looking to join another club because whats the sense of being a full member if you can't play the course on the weekend (when he is off from work)?  

Would your club take on this business practice Roger?  

[Roger Wolfe]

The outtings and events are great for courses.  But to have a saturday and sunday morning event (7:00-1:00) which costs extra and includes guests takes away the private club experience of other members who do not wish to pay extra for a league.  Its just poor business to double dip your membership.  Obviously it is working for some of the members.  Personally I would never pay twice to play my home course.  My father actually reduced his membership to a Social level and is looking to join another club because whats the sense of being a full member if you can't play the course on the weekend (when he is off from work)?  

Would your club take on this business practice Roger?  

I stand corrected... the leagues are great if they are only available to members.  Great point Tony!

[Anton]

Thanks Roger.  Members only leagues would be fine but flooding a course with guests led to craziness at my father's club. 

Good topic overall though.  Most club's fortunately don't have this problem.  A full membership roster is a good thing to have these days for sure.  I know here in Jersey a lot of club's are practically begging for members to come on board.  Unfortunately, Pine Valley isnt one of them.  :-)

[Tim Nugent]

Tony, the best compromise would be to have the non-league players start on the back 9 and have the early AM wave of the league be limited to 9 holes worth of play.  If there id more demand for league play, start a late AM wave after 10.  They might find that a PM wave after lunch might be just as popular do to all the morning demands from families.

[Roger Wolfe]

I think "league" is not the right word to use.  Most clubs call it the Men's Golf Association.  Allowing guests to play in this event on both Sat and Sun morning is pretty bad.  We do not allow ANY "regular" guests before 11 AM on Saturdays unless by special request.  We do allow immediate family during those times.

"League" is a scary word and brings to mind 5:30 PM shotguns at local munis.  I think we are all talking about and organized group where you sign up as an individual.

[Rick Sides]

Roger,
I love GCA members that try to give you opinions when they don't know all the facts.  First of all, it was only recently that I started having problems with my club because it was only recently that my club started making these decisions.  Secondly, how  do you know that what my club is doing is in my best interest?  Are you a member there?  Finally, I'm not the type of person to "sit and bitch" about a problem.  I simply asked the members of this group if they experience similar  problems at their club.  When you join my club and experience the problems I have, then you can tell me about sitting and bitching.  

[Roger Wolfe]

Roger,
I love GCA members that try to give you opinions when they don't know all the facts.  First of all, it was only recently that I started having problems with my club because it was only recently that my club started making these decisions.  Secondly, how  do you know that what my club is doing is in my best interest?  Are you a member there?  Finally, I'm not the type of person to "sit and bitch" about a problem.  I simply asked the members of this group if they experience similar  problems at their club.  When you join my club and experience the problems I have, then you can tell me about sitting and bitching.  

My apologies Rick.  I am just trying to help.  I did not mean any offense but, as you can imagine, I might have become a little numb over the years.  I hope things get better at your club.

Good luck.

[Rick Sides]

Hey no problem Roger.  It is just a frustrating situation and I agree with you that I need to start seeking out answers. Thanks for your help.

[Roger Wolfe]

I just reread one of your earlier posts... "...the club is owned by a private owner..."

That does make things a little different.

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