fazio/Nicklaus

[Keith OHalloran]

Jack Nicklaus just spoke about re working a Tom Fazio course. Would this be most maligned pedigree on GCA? Maybe

[Chris Johnston]

Nope

[JNC Lyon]

Keith,

I'm guessing you are talking about PGA National?  To answer your question, these architects are far from the most maligned on this site.  I've seen many favorable views of Fazio courses (look at my review of GN, for instance), and Nicklaus and co are very much in favor after his work at Sebonack with Tom Doak.

[Keith OHalloran]

JNC
I assume that you are kidding? You start a thread entitled "A Fazio course I actually Like" and then point to it as an example of Fazio acceptance?,and then say that Nicklaus has been acccepted after his work with Doak? On second thought it must have been a joke and I fell for it

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Nicklaus took a very generic championship course and toughened it up.  Like all Fazio courses, PGA National was completely devoid of strategy and favorable angles of attack.  Though the driving corridors are somewhat on the narrow side, a drive that flirts with a hazard will have a better angle into the green,  Also, Nicklaus made the greens among the most interesting in the area at the time. Both 15 and 17 did not have the greens as close to the water before.  The 15th and 17th may seem similar, but face different directions-17 previously pointed closer to the direction of the 15th.

[JNC Lyon]

Keith,

No joke at all.  Did you read my posts of Galloway?  I've been known to rip on Fazio on this site, and I gave this course a pretty good review.  The title, as is often the case, is meant to grab some attention.  Clearly it worked.

Here is an old thread I was just reading on Fazio courses.  There are many on the site who offer compelling defenses of his work.  He is far from the most hated architect out here, and he's not even my least favorite.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,3209.0.html

I think many on here would agree that Nicklaus' work has improved dramatically in recent years.  I should be able to speak to that within the next few days.

[Andy Troeger]

I don't think either one of these guys is as maligned by this board now as they have been at times in the past. Both have been very active and I think that creates a wider disparity in quality than the designers that take fewer projects but devote more time to them. Although, from my own experience its hard to find a course from either of them that's truly bad.  You could make the argument that based on quantity Fazio has more high quality courses out there than any other modern designer--I think he has more on the GW Modern list than anyone else. You don't reach that designation without doing something right.


Robert,
Your comments normally strike me as pretty astute even if we degree on Desert Forest, so your comment about about Fazio's lack of strategy surprises me. Have you been to Victoria National, The Alotian, World Woods, or Gozzer Ranch?  For that matter, how about Dallas National, Karsten Creek, or Aldarra? They all have plenty of strategy.  Some of his other stuff admittedly is eye-candy without much substance, but I think its tough to put him in a box given all of his better work.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Jack also said during todays broadcast that he wants to team with Anika to design the Olympic Course in Brazil.

[jim_lewis]

Robert:

I am impressed! You must be the only person who has played "ALL" of Fazio's courses, or at least that is what you seem to be claiming in the second line of your post. How else could you be familiar with "all" of Fazio's courses? Perhaps you meant to say all of his courses you have played, or maybe you were just generalizing based on the courses you have played or maybe you were just repeating what you have heard. If you have, in fact, played all of them, you must now be recognized as the official Fazio expert on this site.

Jim Lewis

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I cannot claim to have played all of Fazio's courses, but have played over 25 and have yet to see anything resembling preferred angles of attack which is found in great classical architecture and even some lesser architecture.  At times he can make super hard courses, but still lacking in strategy.  Though lacking in strategy that does n ot mean he makes courses that are not fun to play--Pelican Hill, the Quarry, Greyhawk, and! World Woods are a pleasure to play--just lacking in the steategic qualities you would find at NGLA,Shiiny, or Friars Head, or Sebonec.

[Jeff_Brauer]

To answer the original question, I would imagine that the worst pedigreed courses out there (and I saw one recently) would be:

first owner self designs, despite not knowing what he is doing, to save $$$

Second owner remodels, despite not knowing what he is doing, to save $$$, because he bought the course from the first owner in a distress sale, and can't afford to fix it up with a gca and contractor.


There may be 5000 owner-owner pedigrees, if you include owner-pro, owner-super, owner- land planner/engineer, etc.

You get the point.  PGA National has always been a very good course, despite its limitations in housing, flat topo, etc.  I have some nice memories of playing there and seeing some features we had never considered at KN, like combo grass and sand bunkers.  In a small way, it led to me going out on my own to try some new ideas.  Also, hooked up with Larry Nelson at the time he won the PGA there.  (BTW, wonder if they are going to add ball markers to the green contours as a factor to influence putts?)

It was time for a redo and instead of going back to Faz, they hired JN, perhaps because of the tournament connection, maybe because he is local, or because Faz is basically retired so whats the difference between JN associates and TF associates, etc. and for sure, JN is both a good choice and top gca. 

Don't really know why they didn't go back to Faz, but in this biz, most often, a new gca is picked for remodels over the original.

[jim_lewis]

Robert:

Sorry to pick on you, but I just can't help myself. Anytime I see the words "all", "none", "always" and "never", I automatically go into cynic mode. Those words are rarely accurately used, but I see them often of Golfclubatlas. It seems to me that it would have been better if you had mentioned that you have played 25 Fazio courses and that none of the ones you have played.................... But maybe that's just me.

BTW, I have played more than 60 Fazio courses and I can't think of a single thing that I can say that would apply to "all" of them.
There was a time when I think you could fairly generalize about Nicklaus courses, but not anymore. His more recent work (that I have seen) seems to be different and better than most of his earlier courses (that I have seen).

Jim

[Matt_Ward]

Robert MD:

When you say TF designs are lacking behind the likes of "you would find at NGLA,Shiiny, or Friars Head, or Sebonack," you are talking collectively about golf courses that are among the 20-25 best in the USA. Possibly Sebonack is outside of that loop but easlily within a top 50.

Have you played the other TF courses I mentioned ?

It's too e-z to throw the tagline no strateguc to TF because it's not really true -- especially among his top tier efforts. I am not speaking to the ones that have the mass-produced feel and look.

I agree with Jim Lewis -- TF gets rightly panned here on restoration efforts or of that type -- but his tiop tier work is very good -- is it at the same level of a Ballyneal or Rock Creek from say Doak. The answer is no for me. But the very best of his efforts are all top 100 and for very good reason.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

Jack also said during todays broadcast that he wants to team with Anika to design the Olympic Course in Brazil.

Tongue in cheek comment from another trade:

Now that we have determined what you are, we need to determine the price.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I find myself in the strange territory of agreeing with Matt. Fazio has built some superb courses. Jack has too. Both have enjoyed the best of sites to work with over the last 30 years. Therefore while Fazio rarely builds abad course many do have a dumb blond side to them. But every once in a while it all comes together and they have brains to go with those looks. Jacks average is much lower and often he dresses poorly too.

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger:

Interesting comment -- you say Jack's average is "much lower" than TF's.

Care to comment in a bit more detail.

Are you saying that TF's best designs have the edge over JN's by a considerable margin ?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt, yes I rarely see a poor TF course. Jack has many average to poor courses scattered around. 2 in Louisiana(CC of La and english turn) compared to one for TF(Casino course in lake charles).  I also think TF has more great or very good to great courses than Jacks team has produced. I think overall they have dominated the Real Estate high end Club market for a generation now.

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger:

You need to tell me how many TF courses you have played versus the approximate number of Nicklaus courses ?

I've played an equal measure of both men and I would say that Jack has the stronger hand of elite level courses.
Nicklaus has the effort at Muirfield Village ... Castle Pines ... really turned things around with The Champ at PGA National that TF did originally but that Jack really propelled by his fingerprints.

Let me point out that as much as I really like TF's effort with Glenwild in UT -- I see JN's effort at Red Ledges -- also in the Beehive State -- as the better of the two.

TF would get the nod for a better overall average but many of them are more of a postcard view than anything else.

Agree with you on the real estate side of things -- they are the two dominant players.