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C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0

Ladies and Gentlemen

The last few posts show the underlining sickness that has penetrated this site.
Melvyn


Take two doses of Fine Golf and call us when you feel better.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Melvyn

These are two site which are in the main trying to skin the same cats.  The biggest difference is Ran turns over much more control of the content to his readers than Lorne does.  Additionally, Ran is looking at a much bigger picture of golf than Lorne.  Lorne's niche is keeping to traditional British greenkeeping because of the joy factor found in a better all year playing surface.  Unlike Pat, I think this is quite a clever angle to approach reviewing courses and in their way are just as good as Ran's reviews.  Ran is attempting to link the dots and express his admiration for the game by making some sort of definitive statements about the state of global architecture, its history and future.  Granted, Ran's pursuit is a bit more esoteric than Lorne's, but every bit as valuable as Lorne's.  In short, I think both sites when at their best are excellent and very much essential reading.

Ciao     
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Yet another idiotic thread by Mr. Morrow.

GCA.com has had better days, to be sure, like during the bubble years when new courses were popping up every other day.

Hence, the subject matter around here does have the potential to stray from original intent (golf course architecture) from time to time.

The only person who thinks this website is, or should be, about something other than golf course architecture, however, is you Mr. Morrow.  The rest of us yearn for the days of photo tours, news about exciting upcoming projects, interviews with architects and developers and new interesting historical findings.

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
On the subject of the other site, I went and perused it and enjoyed it greatly.  I forwarded the link to my friends who regularly enjoy the pleasures of GB&I golf.  I don't think there's much valid comparison to be done between this site and the other, but it looks like it's a fun and valuable resource, unlike the person who brought it to our attention.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Poor Melvyn can't even catch a break over on Shack's site. http://tinyurl.com/4cpgzjm

Has anybody actually met the guy?  I'll be the first to donate $100 to get him over here to play in the Dixie Cup.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
John Kavanaugh -

If nothing else, the man is a glutton for punishment!

DT

Melvyn Morrow


Oh Dear Gentlemen

While I have been away you have been a busy little group. Hope you have had fun

Perhaps you may now understand that Golf is deep rooted in my family, wonder if it has anything to do with St Andrews and my family or am I just having fun with you guys.

Whatever, the title of this post is “Beware ‘Fine Golf’ may soon surpass GCA.com on Serious Golfing Issues”.  The words I thought that might stand out or at the very least give you a clue about the topic are Beware;  May;  Surpass;  Serious;  Golfing;  Issues. Ops looks like you missed them.

Melvyn

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
M - I'm starting to think you are dumb like a fox.  Your entire purpose might well be to exact the precise response you are getting.  If so you are laughing at all of us.  If no, well.... see Judge Lavin's comments.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 08:36:43 PM by Jonathan Cummings »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Your entire purpose might well be to exact the precise response you are getting.  If so you are laughing at all of us."

Jonathan Cummings -

You raise an interesting point. Lately I have been thinking that MHM has deliberately created a personna as a pompous, self-righteous blowhard out of a P.G. Wodehouse novel just to put us all on and have a laugh. What person would seriously expect people in the 21st century to be impressed by who their relatives were in the 19th century or expect that those relatives provide them with a "golfing pedigree" that is the least bit relevant?

DT   

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Poor Melvyn can't even catch a break over on Shack's site. http://tinyurl.com/4cpgzjm

Has anybody actually met the guy?  I'll be the first to donate $100 to get him over here to play in the Dixie Cup.

I came very close in June 2008.  A gang of 8 of us were in Dornoch.  Melvyn and I were going to try to meet at Tain.  He couldn't make it but did arrange for a bottle of Glenmorangie Nectar d'Or at the distillery in Tain.  At the Buda Cup in Lundin Links a few days later, I had the pubmeister bring out 16 shot glasses so we could hoist a toast to the great grandson of Old Tom Morris.  It was a very special moment.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 08:52:22 PM by Bill_McBride »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
On the subject of the other site, I went and perused it and enjoyed it greatly.  I forwarded the link to my friends who regularly enjoy the pleasures of GB&I golf.  I don't think there's much valid comparison to be done between this site and the other, but it looks like it's a fun and valuable resource, unlike the person who brought it to our attention.

100% agreed.  Lorne Smith is a good guy who came to play in the Buda last fall in Wales.  The goal and scope of FineGolf.com is so different from GCA it's hard to overstate, but both focus on golf courses and what is to be enjoyed about them.

Anyone who wants to denigrate MHM by denigrating FineGolf is making a big mistake.

Mr Smith also showed up sporting very nice plus fours!  :)

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
You know, if you read this thread, and can cut through some of the personal attacks, there are some darn good points being raised.  Nice questions going back and forth with some decent answers and thoughts to consider.

This site bills itself as being focused on frank and honest commentary, supposedly focused on golf course architecture.  But can we, the particpants/members/posters, actually handle frank and honest commentary without getting our feelings hurt, getting defensive, and/or taking things personally?  I think the concept of frank and honest commentary is a great concept, but are human beings capable of having that type of discussion without getting overly emotional?

 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Andy Troeger

Poor Melvyn can't even catch a break over on Shack's site. http://tinyurl.com/4cpgzjm

Has anybody actually met the guy?  I'll be the first to donate $100 to get him over here to play in the Dixie Cup.

Does anyone have a record of Melvyn actually appearing in person at any event? Or any record of him before he joined GCA in 2008? I did a google search just now and found nothing on either account. Raised my curiosity...most of the hits were from various golf websites and blogs.

Melvyn Morrow

 Andy

Want more info on us Morrows try starting with our last generation say Sir Ian Morrow. After that I'll give you some more names back to a guy called T Morris then still further back until 1649. If you still want more info then just ask.

This time you went looking for info on me and my family. Check out my great grandfather http://blog.al.com/living-press-register/2009/09/roads_less_traveled_how_a_monr.html and our American connections.

Thanks for your interest but what has this to do with my topic

Melvyn

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mel,

What timetable do you predict for Fine Golf to surpass gca.com in numbers of participants or content?

Does the fg group respect the R&A's stewardship of the game?

any links to threads regarding above?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Andy Troeger

Melvyn,
My inquiries had about as much to do with this topic as your link had to do with my inquiries. My apologies. Back to Fine Golf.

Melvyn Morrow


Steve

You asked
 
Mel,
What timetable do you predict for Fine Golf to surpass gca.com in numbers of participants or content?
Does the fg group respect the R&A's stewardship of the game?
any links to threads regarding above?

With all respect please read the heading as the key word for your first question was MAY and the second set of words were SERIOUS GOLFING ISSUES.

I feel that FG shows a great deal of respect for the R&A stewardship of the game – I am the one questioning their past performance, current ability to judge where the game is going and have they put money before their duty to protect the game.

Not certain what you are actually after on your last point as what links are you after?

Melvyn

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
You know, if you read this thread, and can cut through some of the personal attacks, there are some darn good points being raised.  Nice questions going back and forth with some decent answers and thoughts to consider.

This site bills itself as being focused on frank and honest commentary, supposedly focused on golf course architecture.  But can we, the particpants/members/posters, actually handle frank and honest commentary without getting our feelings hurt, getting defensive, and/or taking things personally?  I think the concept of frank and honest commentary is a great concept, but are human beings capable of having that type of discussion without getting overly emotional?
Mac,

Thank you.  The sad thing is with Melvyn's threads is that as much, perhaps more, of the nonsense and vituperation comes from his antagonists, many of whom, I suspect, think they are being clever or, worse, think they are doing GCA or Ran some service.  This thread does, indeed, contain some really good arguments, despite the, by now almost inevitable, nonsense.

Fine Golf is a decent resource and Lorne a gentleman.  He (and it) do not deserve to be attacked on here just because the site's bete noir has mentioned them.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark,

You and I know each other.  I was happy to meet you when you came to Chicago and we had a delightful day playing Olympia Fields a few years back.  While I can appreciate that you and Mac want to have a rapprochement or what we in the States might call a "Rodney King moment" where we all agree to "get along", you both conveniently avoid the central truth that MHM is, on an ovewhelming basis, the provocateur of the hostilities that he now complains of.  It's like the kids who killed their parents who then want sympathy for their status as orphans.

His modus operandi is now so well established that it could be taught in blogging school on how to be a disruptive force.  The usual progression is to: 1) pick a fight; 2) draw some incoming fire; 3) claim to be misunderstood because his antagonists didn't "read" his post; 4) rely on his often repeated family provenance; 4) claim to be injured in some fashion; and 5) summon his defenders to come to his aid.

This post is no exception to the rule.  Here are just a few tidbits from the initial post on the thread.  I could go through past threads and give you exhibit after exhibit, but this man's perseverations exhaust me and I don't have the time to waste.  Here's what he said in this first post:

Many add to GCA threads without first reading what has been written previously, so how on earth can they know or even offer a comment. Seems to say the debate is not interesting enough for them but they still want to make a point – yet how valid is that point to the debate?

We have the people here who are more than competent to produce a good debate, but for some reason the subject does not matter, it seem less important than attacking the individual who posted the thread. Worst still many Members seem to run for cover not wanting to get involved, ignoring the attack, and thus forming an act of censorship in doing so, which in turn reduces the effectiveness of the site.

But of course it’s more fun scoring points against another individual just because you do not agree with his/her point of view or worst still with a tone you believe you have detected. To kill a debate for this reason is pure madness but we are all to blame because very few of us ever jump in and support the right of that individual to have his say – wars are fought for less reasons.


After  that for an initial volley, what does one expect?  He got whacked left and right while some people tried to look past his vitriol and redirect the thread to one of its purposes: to alert our participants of a most worthy website that most will find useful.  But if Melvyn expects to drop bombs and not get hit by shrapnel or get hit by unfriendly fire, he is even more delusional than I think he is.  You and Mac and the occasional other member of this site can repeatedly protest that Melvyn has something worth offering on this site, but the evidence is more than conclusive at this point in time.

Melvyn ended his post with this cute proviso:  PS As for your opinion of me or my posts, I would only ask that you delay in making up your minds until we meet, allowing you the opportunity to read my body language in conjunction with my comments. Perhaps we may have to still resolve issues by accepting that we do not agree but without the need for hostilities.

So, in essence, he wants the opportunity to provoke, fight, pronounce, set rules, chide, embarrass and annoy but we are to withhold our opinions of him until we meet.  

Personally, I hope that day never comes.
 


« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 02:07:01 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Melvyn Morrow



Terry

You are just so full of hate, I feel sorry for you. You misread things for your own reasons.  If you do not like my comments why bother posting why not just ignore my topic or posts, but NO its you guys that start this crap,  You jump in not on the topic but to have a go at me not to debate.

Do something with this hate thing otherwise it will kill you. Like the TV there is an ON OFF position i.e comment or ignore it & seek another topic,

Its the very reason that you do not do this that pushes the blame back upon yourself.  Would I like to meet you, I don't actually know after all the crap you keeping expelling, but what happens next is down to you can you take control of yourself and be calm and debate the topic or keep your hate for me well alight.

Melvyn


Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Just keep pressing the "repeat" button, Melvyn.  It's the only tool you have left.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Terry...

Frankly, I think you bring up some very valid points.  I've mentioned on this site, on more than one occassion, that I think Melvyn does have something to offer AND that I think he doesn't always come off that well when making his points.  Sometimes (well maybe not sometimes) he is too repetative and too brusk.  I've mentioned this to him publicly and privately.  His answer is generally that he has to be who he is.  I can respect that.  I think he'd get more good discussion if he'd change that aspect, but oh well...to each their own.

To be really specific, I loved Melvyn's post #46 right up until the very end.  The last paragraph started to get dicey and then the last sentence was unneccessary in my opinion and I don't support it and, to be honest, I disagree with it.  I think Pat is open minded, or at least he has shown that to me in my interaction with him, he supports the walking game...but doesn't condem others...things like that.  But Melvyn and Pat clearly have been at odds on this site and I can't do anything about that.


I suppose in summary, I really think Melvyn has a lot of good to offer the site and the game.  I wish dearly he would change to tone of some of his posts, as I think he would bring other supporters out for his causes rather than alienate so many.  But, like I said in the opening, Terry you make some excellent and valid points.  However, to be clear...I don't want everyone to get along and be agreeable on every front.  I like open, honest, and frank discussion...just do away with personal attacks if people have different views.  Make your case, support it, discuss.

And to be 100% clear, Terry I've never felt like you make over-the-top personal attacks...this last line or two wasn't aimed at you.  And to even more clear, I think Sheldon made a great post of disagreement with Melvyn in a constructive manner.  This is much better than vicious personal attacks IMO.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0


Terry

You are just so full of hate, I feel sorry for you. You misread things for your own reasons.  If you do not like my comments why bother posting why not just ignore my topic or posts, but NO its you guys that start this crap,  You jump in not on the topic but to have a go at me not to debate.

Do something with this hate thing otherwise it will kill you. Like the TV there is an ON OFF position i.e comment or ignore it & seek another topic,

Its the very reason that you do not do this that pushes the blame back upon yourself.  Would I like to meet you, I don't actually know after all the crap you keeping expelling, but what happens next is down to you can you take control of yourself and be calm and debate the topic or keep your hate for me well alight.

Melvyn



Mac, it's the point at which Melvyn starts making posts like the one quoted above that it becomes apparent it's his debating style that causes these incendiary exchanges.  I can't think of a situation where you would ever talk to someone like Terry Lavin like that face to face.  When I saw that I thought to myself, time for Melvyn to take a time out.

When he says "NO its you guys that start this crap" he ignores the fact that every situation starts with one of his posts, from his somewhat insular perspective, and escalates from there to the abusive posts such as the one above.

This is too bad, because his generosity in sharing great material on Scotland's courses and OTM is unparalleled. 

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Like Terry, Bill, you've made some excellent points.  I hope they are taken into consideration. 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

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