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Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« on: February 24, 2011, 02:56:02 PM »
Our club is ruled by the proxy vote.....gathered by the board members to pass the agenda they think is best....yet with new technology as we have today I don't see why so many clubs still work via the proxy system...why do so many still use it....it really hurts clubs IMHO...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 03:16:46 PM »
We don't use proxies--they're expressly disallowed per the By Laws.There has been a move to allow electronic voting as this has become common in other places.

My take is that all club voting should be done by paper ballots.My theory is that the people who take the time to go out to the club and actually vote are more interested in the issues and more vested in the outcomes.

Once electronic voting becomes the norm,clubs will use this tool more frequently.You'll end up with weekly plebiscites on things like weekend hole locations and which soup should be served.

I understand your issues with your current Board's actions and also understand that you believe that electronic voting will break the grip of the current guys.You're probably right.But you may end up with a worse problem--a Board which refuses to stick to a long range plan because each week they get conflicting "poll" results.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 03:31:14 PM »
I love proxies.  Seems to me that if you only count the votes of those who go to board meetings the kooks will have their way. 

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 03:39:07 PM »
Could you give some examples Mike?
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 03:39:42 PM »
JM,
I haven't said I have an issue with the board....and I agree with you if electronic methods were used for all issues but I agree with you as to not using proxies...let the people that use the club vote....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2011, 03:43:33 PM »
Could you give some examples Mike?
Cheers

Well...let's see...say a 6 million dollar assessment passes by 16 votes ( or you might say nine votes would have swayed it)....850 member club....719 votes are cast....390 were proxies....and many of the proxies did not even know what was being voted....the users of the club would have voted it down....the board was able to sway the elderly....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2011, 03:45:53 PM »
I love proxies.  Seems to me that if you only count the votes of those who go to board meetings the kooks will have their way. 

you got a point there but ...but with todays technology it seems you could have a voting period when a member could cast a vote from a computer somewhere and cast their own vote without giving an entire group of votes to several ....my problem with the proxy is they don't even know which way their vote is going...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2011, 03:49:52 PM »
JM,
I haven't said I have an issue with the board....and I agree with you if electronic methods were used for all issues but I agree with you as to not using proxies...let the people that use the club vote....

Nobody has ever accused me of seeing the glass half full.

IMO,here's what will happen with electronic voting.Some Board member,probably in marketing,will have the epiphany that a club can survey its members so frequently that any/all decisions should be put to a vote.He'll reason that the Board is now doing exactly what the membership wants.Long range planning will be replaced by this week's poll results.


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2011, 03:54:26 PM »
With electronic voting suddenly the power will tilt to the young guys who can vote from their phone.  From my experience, young guys are ignorant pieces of shit that only care about themselves.  Give me the old guard counting proxies in a smoke filled room.  But then again, I am from Illinois.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2011, 03:59:35 PM »
With electronic voting suddenly the power will tilt to the young guys who can vote from their phone.  From my experience, young guys are ignorant pieces of shit that only care about themselves.  Give me the old guard counting proxies in a smoke filled room.  But then again, I am from Illinois.

John,

Our problem is the young guys that are full of shit obtaining the proxies from old Mrs Jone,.... friend of their family for years....saying .."I gave my proxy too young Joe ..you know...Joans son...he's my banker, and broker and he can do whatever he thinks is best"...  well as you say  young Joe has no clue....as long as his frat brothers at the club in the sister town are impressed..then all is good...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2011, 04:03:53 PM »
With electronic voting suddenly the power will tilt to the young guys who can vote from their phone.  From my experience, young guys are ignorant pieces of shit that only care about themselves.  Give me the old guard counting proxies in a smoke filled room.  But then again, I am from Illinois.

We're 50% in agreement--we share the same opinion of young members.

I want the old guard driving the bus,I just don't want them to take things for granted.Allowing them to collect blank proxies is too easy.Make them convince like-minded members to drive out to the club and vote themselves.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2011, 04:09:15 PM »
Mike Young: 

How in the world can you say that a lot of the guys giving the Board proxies don't know how their votes will be cast?

The Board puts out a proposal. They ask for proxies.

Are you seriously saying that it's conceivable that a member could think a vote could be cast by the Board against their own proposal?

GMAFB. If that's true, the member should be kicked out of the club for being the stupidest person on earth.
We have plenty of members giving proxies to people and saying vote the way you wish....they don't know....they just play bridge out there once a week and eat lunch...that's group is a 100 vote package the board always has....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2011, 04:10:06 PM »
With electronic voting suddenly the power will tilt to the young guys who can vote from their phone.  From my experience, young guys are ignorant pieces of shit that only care about themselves.  Give me the old guard counting proxies in a smoke filled room.  But then again, I am from Illinois.

We're 50% in agreement--we share the same opinion of young members.

I want the old guard driving the bus,I just don't want them to take things for granted.Allowing them to collect blank proxies is too easy.Make them convince like-minded members to drive out to the club and vote themselves.

we're 100% agreement with the above....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2011, 04:20:35 PM »
With electronic voting suddenly the power will tilt to the young guys who can vote from their phone.  From my experience, young guys are ignorant pieces of shit that only care about themselves.  Give me the old guard counting proxies in a smoke filled room.  But then again, I am from Illinois.

We're 50% in agreement--we share the same opinion of young members.

I want the old guard driving the bus,I just don't want them to take things for granted.Allowing them to collect blank proxies is too easy.Make them convince like-minded members to drive out to the club and vote themselves.

I would not join a club where I was expected to attend board meetings.  I look to my clubs as places to go to get away from such formalities.  It may not surprise anyone to learn that I already have enough drama in my life without creating more at the one place where I am comfortable.  The other problem is that of the things I detest I can not take a public stance.

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2011, 04:26:05 PM »
JK,you don't think opining on an internet discussion group qualifies as taking a public stance?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2011, 04:39:14 PM »
JK,you don't think opining on an internet discussion group qualifies as taking a public stance?

It is one thing to say I don't like women and children in a general manner and quite different when talking to a husband or father.

I was recently playing at a club where I was considering joining when a board member asked me what I thought.  I told him that unfortunately there where too many women and children on the course for my taste.  He became very irate and attempted to insult me the best he knew how.  The damn place is so broke he then apologized and asked if I would reconsider.  I didn't join because I didn't like the place.  I'm just better off keeping my personal appearances to a minimum.

One thing that is unusual about me is that I tend to watch what I say on here much better than in public.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2011, 04:42:59 PM »
Our club is ruled by the proxy vote.....gathered by the board members to pass the agenda they think is best....yet with new technology as we have today I don't see why so many clubs still work via the proxy system...why do so many still use it....it really hurts clubs IMHO...


Oh you wealthy people, you struggle with such vexing problems, I don't know how you wake each morning!  I don't envy you.

Pop music just don't speak to successful people.  Green Day lyrics, Really?  btw.  I have lost ten pounds this week on my combination Elvis Cocktail and walking four holes each morning.  290 Baby!

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2011, 04:50:52 PM »
JK,you don't think opining on an internet discussion group qualifies as taking a public stance?

One thing that is unusual about me is that I tend to watch what I say on here much better than in public.

JK-Do you travel with a body guard or possibly a concealed weapon?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2011, 07:54:54 PM »
A country club is about as far from a democracy as it's possible to conceive.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2011, 11:42:51 AM »
The proxy problem is not so simple.  The by laws of most clubs require a minimum number of votes to pass anything requiring the approval of members.  This is to prevent a small number of active members from seizing control of the club.  Similar provisions are found in the by laws of almost any organization.  The problem is that many, perhaps even most, members are like Barney (at least in this respect).  They don't want to have to deal with the business aspects of the club, they just want to enjoy it.  That is their prerogative so long as there is a way to conduct business.  Budgets must be passed, officers must be elected, capital improvements must be undertaken from time to time etc.  Thus there must be a way to obtain the votes.  If a member does not want to attend a meeting or cannot due to scheduling conflicts, the proxy allows him to vote and for the club to obtain the necessary quorum.  A properly drafted proxy allows the member to vote on the proposition or to allow a nominee to vote for him.  The choice is up to the member.  If the club wants to allow electronic voting that is permissable.  I suggest that, at least in my experience, it will be harder to get someone to take the time to vote on the computer then to get him to sign a proxy.

Finally, we have faced similar objections; that the proxy system allows the "connected" to exert inordinate influence.  I will say the same thing here as I have told others at my club dating back to the time when I was a relatively young member;  if you feel strongly, nothing prevents any member or group of members from taking their valuable time and soliciting other members to cast their votes by proxy or otherwise against the proposal advanced by the "insiders".  Stop complaining and invest your time.  See if your fellow members agree with you.  Find out how persuasive you can be.  The response to this invitation has always been inaction which leads me to believe that the complaints about the system are more often a reflection of dissatifaction with substantive decisions which the speaker can't reverse.  So he blames the system.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2011, 12:09:08 PM »
Dumb question -- are there any clubs that have both voting and non voting membership structures/fees?

Peter

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2011, 12:15:15 PM »
Dumb question -- are there any clubs that have both voting and non voting membership structures/fees?

Peter

If I'm understanding correctly--absolutely.

Old school member-owned clubs in my part of the world have had non-equity memberships for a few years.Only the certificate members can vote.

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2011, 12:33:50 PM »
on the big issues (assesments) you need proxies--gotta get a consensus or the club will get torn apart, and most members wont go to a meeting.

i think requiring a 2/3 vote to get an assesment passed is a healthy check on any board's expansion plans--but this is also a prob at family clubs, where you need a new pool, kitchen, etc. every 7 years or so.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2011, 01:46:21 PM »
I am only a member of one club where I have voting rights.  During our last election a gentleman was running on the platform of firing the pro, a childhood personal friend of mine, and diluting the mixed drinks.  Obviously these are two issues that forced my hand.

The pro is not very politically astute and I was sitting at the bar one day as he was trying to gather proxies.  As people would come in he simply asked them if they would give him their proxy and to a man they said yes but they would have to go home and return them to him.  Luckily for my friend I advised him to go get copies of the proxies and hand them to people as soon as they said yes and wait for their signature.  He, he, you gotta be one strong a-hole to look a man in his face and say "No, I hope you get fired."

God, I do love back room political strategy. 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is there still a need for the proxy in a private club?
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2011, 03:01:00 PM »
I think if clubs are using proxy then Scott is correct....you need s 2/3 majority....making major decisions with a 49/51 percent split is not a consensus, especially with a proxy....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"