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Mike Sweeney

Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2011, 09:18:57 PM »

You are not the first person who I have seen enter this site as an enthusiastic golfer and end up a tired critic.  Somewhere in there is this fools game that I have been trying to identify for years. 

"Of course there are still those who resist the tide and cling to the ways they’ve always known, who look at multiple channels and only see fragmentation, who look at millions of people talking about what’s important to them and only perceive self-indulgent and distracting noise."

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2011, 09:24:29 PM »

You are not the first person who I have seen enter this site as an enthusiastic golfer and end up a tired critic.  Somewhere in there is this fools game that I have been trying to identify for years. 

"Of course there are still those who resist the tide and cling to the ways they’ve always known, who look at multiple channels and only see fragmentation, who look at millions of people talking about what’s important to them and only perceive self-indulgent and distracting noise."

I have never been on facebook so I skipped the movie.  So why the quote and is it an insult or a compliment?

Mike Sweeney

Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2011, 09:33:43 PM »
One John writes like Aaron Sorkin and one John writes like Adam Sandler. Both are entertaining, but one really makes me think.

If the fact that both of you post on a discussion group makes you similar, well maybe I am a critic as I want to dig a little deeper than surface level BS.

Sorkin is a genius, so go see the movie. It has nothing to do with Facebook.

PS. You have 732 post on Golf Course Facebook.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2011, 09:58:15 PM »
.  
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 09:45:40 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2011, 10:17:03 PM »
(deleted, and discussed with Don offline)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 12:09:40 PM by John Kirk »

Brad Isaacs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2011, 10:37:45 PM »
I enjoy the process of an opinion expressed and watching people react to it. Very few of you know me well enough to dislike me. I do not not mind taking criticism for what I say, because I learn things that way. I am not sure that I believe all that I say either. Everyone has a right to believe what they want to and it may be almost as valid as what I believe, but please do not stop disagreeing and do not stop having opinions, for it is that, that helps me to learn about this sport that I love.

John do not stop writing, I enjoy reading it whether I agree with everything that is said or not. I also enjoy tHe responses.


mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2011, 10:52:17 PM »
I find myself going back and forth a little here on the critic side.The thoughtful critic is the one to identify ,the one that matters.I have conditioned myself in my somewhat public profession to follow the thoughts of "the man in the arena...it is not the critic who counts..."But sometimes critics speak truth.It is figuring out who to listen to and learn from.Otherwise,we end up with the lesson of the emperor's clothes. so John,you have made me think.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2011, 11:50:24 PM »
The fact is, we need critics. If I didn't have critics whose judgement I trusted I'd go broke trying to find movies I liked. Now, maybe some would say that if I can't afford to see every movie then I can't really afford to see any movie, but that's not how I choose to live my life. The same is true of golf courses on a much larger financial scale.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2011, 07:23:59 AM »
The fact is, we need critics. If I didn't have critics whose judgement I trusted I'd go broke trying to find movies I liked. Now, maybe some would say that if I can't afford to see every movie then I can't really afford to see any movie, but that's not how I choose to live my life. The same is true of golf courses on a much larger financial scale.

Charlie,

I only read movie reviews after I have seen a film.  Given modern trailers and promotion it is often difficult to not know how a movie ends before you have purchased the popcorn.  Perhaps 20 years ago you would have had a point but today we all have so much information at our finger tips that critics have become obsolete.  The only people who need critics are those who wish to raise little critic babies themselves.

Just curious, which movie have you recently avoided thanks to the critics that you may have seen otherwise. 

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2011, 07:45:25 AM »
Charlie,

Obviously since I am a member of both a Fazio and Nicklaus course I don't listen to critics opinions.  I was just trying to think where I would play if I did and how much less I would enjoy golf.  Interesting, isn't it, that I would end up like John Kirk, tired of the game thinking I had already seen the best I will ever see.  If I am content where I play golf and believe that they are great courses why do I need a critic to burst my bubble?

Aren't you a little ashamed you said you need critics.


Mike Sweeney

Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2011, 08:39:16 AM »
Charlie,

Obviously since I am a member of both a Fazio and Nicklaus course I don't listen to critics opinions. 



John,

You have got to be kidding. Okay you joined Victoria before your first post at GCA.com but there are more than a few here who think you joined Dismal River specifically to "stick it to the man/rater/critic at GCA.com and Golfweek" !!

To be fair, you have been Dismal's greatest fan and you have obviously been a positive force for the club. Maybe you can be the one to get Jack Nicklaus to do an interview here when the course settles into its most recent changes.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2011, 08:43:52 AM »
:<))

Analytical thought is one thing, being a professional student is another..

Relying on a critic's voice can be like taking directions from a stranger.. but beware of mule skinners if you're real smart..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWGAdzn5_KU
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #62 on: February 25, 2011, 08:46:27 AM »
What is a competitive critic? I don't understand.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #63 on: February 25, 2011, 08:53:48 AM »
Criticism in its traditional form is not about complaining. It's about explaining, elaborating, pointing to strengths, explaining why something works aestheticallly, and why some things don't work, where they could be better. It's not about dismissing things as worthless or mindlessly extolling them as ingenious. It's like any other field of study that requires discipline, study, research, field work, locating traditions, identifying trends. The fact is that anyone can have an opinion, but having an opinion doesn't make it a form of criticism without some significant work behind it. Playing golf is the easiest part of it. And if that's your primary engagement you'll make extremely limited judgments.  

Various forms of new media have enabled more people than ever to be more thoughtful critics, and the line between professional critic and amateur critic has effectively been erased, which is a very good thing. But just because more people can do it doesn't mean that everyone' s judgments and opinions are based on the same evidentiary base. Some people here on GCA base their thinking on more varied experience, a more extensive engagement with the literature, the personalities, the breadth of courses, and others have extremely narrow focal points.

I find John Kirk's little memoir revealing and fascinating because he's honest about his circumstances and commitments and also that his interest comes from various forms of complex emotional engagement. If you don't love what you are looking at and you aren't moved by your involvement then your criticism and judgment suffer and you will not be taken as seriously by others -- or worse, yet, you'll just be dismissed as crank or a raving, miserable wretch. For some, that's okay -- the price we pay for the internet, for new media and for living in a democracy. But just because everyone's entitled to their opinions doesn't mean that everyone merits equal attention for their opinions.

To make a living doing this is much harder work than it seems. And while I would never claim that it's harder work than entailed by those who work in a box factory or a Dilbert office or who can't find work at all, doing the work of a critic is its own peculiar and demanding form of engagement if it's to be done well. Not that everyone needs to acknowledge or respect that, or that anyone else really cares.

The interesting thing is that the business of golf architecture has gotten better because of criticism and because many -- by no means all, maybe not even most -- architects are sensitive to criticism. Some are sensitive because they are insecure and just want to be liked, but many are sensitive because they care about their work, want to learn, appreciate an independent or fresh and honest perspective, and enjoy the back-and-forth of engaging in walking and talking with folks who have a perceptive eye, a vast memory, and a compelling engagement with the craft. Those of you who have had that experience with a designer or owner or superintendent in the field know the excitement and joy of such an engagement. It enables people to do better work, and when (some) designers respond like that in a non-defensive way, the whole craft benefits.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 09:12:11 AM by Brad Klein »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #64 on: February 25, 2011, 09:19:09 AM »
Brad,

Thanks for saving this thread with an example of professional writing.  For whatever reasons, based in my own insecurities, I get a kick out of watching your travels during rater camp season.  There is no doubt even to a putz like me that what you do is difficult work indeed.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2011, 09:53:37 AM »
Thanks for starting the thead.  I decided a long time ago that I am obsessed with the game and might as well embrace that obsession and enjoy it rather than squelch it.

I became interested in architecture as a result of finding other ways to enjoy the game when the frustrations inherent in playing the game made it less enjoyable.  I started out by doing a lot of reading and found that the writing I enjoyed most about the game had to do with architecture.  Biographies of players are of limited interest because the pursuit of a high quality golf game is actually a pretty boring story - essentially training the body and mind to perform under pressure.  Fiction on the topic is generally pretty weak.  Architecture, on the other hand, is the subject with the best writing in the sport in my opinio

As a result, I often find myself alternating the way in which I enjoy the game.  I find my personal struggle to play the game as well as possible the most engaging aspect of the game.   Analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of a golf course, learning to take decent pictures, improving my ability to communicate by written word, learning about course maintenence, trying to understand the arcane politics of a long established country club, enjoying people I meet along the way and planning travel are other methods.  I find that by alternating my focus I can enjoy the game rather than obsess about my shortcomings as a player.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2011, 10:02:14 AM »
"Aren't you a little ashamed you said you need critics."

Given the various and many things of which I am rightfully ashamed, I can honestly say "no".


You asked for a recent example of movies that critics have steered me clear of. I tend to forget them rather quickly but I'll give you an older example which I remember because it led to a fight. I had read a negative review, by a critic I have been often in agreement with, of the movie Fahrenheit 911. As a result I got into a nice row with my wife over going to see it. I refused to waste my meager cash on it, she wanted to see it (and wanted me to see it). I don't regret not seeing it at all.

Actually that brings to mind another time. Same critic, different movie. My wife wanted to see The Life of David Gale. Said critic said it sucked, I acquiesced (probably in hopes of getting laid). After the movie I said "god that sucked" I didn't get laid. I should have stood my ground, at least I'd have had those hours back.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2011, 10:21:44 AM »
Charlie,

Honestly, if I had married a woman who delves deeper than the front page of Yahoo News for social commentary I'd never get laid either.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2011, 10:23:24 AM »
"Aren't you a little ashamed you said you need critics."

 After the movie I said "god that sucked" I didn't get laid. I should have stood my ground, at least I'd have had those hours back.

Charlie - your error was in expressing your opinion before the next day.  :)

Peter Pallotta

Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2011, 10:50:58 AM »
It's ALL art - design, criticism, writing. I think the word art comes from the German word for trick. The trick either works or it doesn't; You either pull it off or you don't. The difference? Talent!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2011, 11:45:34 AM »
Don, that's painful to read, because there is truth in there.

My intent is not to share my troubles here.  The blog has some personal stories mixed in.  Sorry I have offended you.

The only thing similar about Barney and Captain Kirk is their initials.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2011, 11:50:32 AM »
I disagree...I think they both speak their minds very directly and openly...rare traits in this world.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2011, 11:57:07 AM »
I disagree...I think they both speak their minds very directly and openly...rare traits in this world.

OK, Two things. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2011, 12:22:48 PM »
I generally don't care for too much navel-gazing, but perhaps that's a function of AS and too much time on your hands. 

BTW, I've heard it said that Lisbeth Salander (the girl with the dragon tattoo) has AS so please don't kick my ass, John. 

Mike Tanner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2011, 12:58:39 PM »
John,
You posted, "By the way, I'm not sure what to do with this newfound information, this diagnosis of my mental makeup.  It helps explain me, but doesn't change anything.  It makes for a good story, and I like telling stories."

I just want to thank you for putting yourself out there and raising awareness about Aspergers. A very close relative is an "Aspie." You're right about the diagnosis not changing things for the person with it, but it sure was a relief for family members to have an explanation. We could change the way we reacted to certain behaviors, and that has truly made a difference for the better for all of us.
 
Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

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