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Peter Pallotta

Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2011, 09:21:40 AM »
This morning a question can to me -- Does anyone think that the person John is describing does indeed have the 'mind of a critic'?

Personally, I don't think so -- though I'd suggest that it is a knife-edge between critic and creator, and a matter of intention.

On the other hand, I'm reminded of Edmund Wilson (I think) -- excellent critic who was tormented by the thought that he wasn't 'creative', as was someone like Ernest Hemmingway. Wilson concluded that it was a matter/difference of temperament that could not be bridged.

Brad K - interesting (and good, I think) analysis of John's essay and how/why it works.  But for my tastes, if only more writers had the talent and taste to create/utilize  such a subtle -- and true -- narrative engine.  IMO, writers of all kinds often forget or don't realize that their readers have a good sense of what is artificial and false, and they have an aversion to it -- even if they rarely express it in those terms.

Like with the golf course we like here, I can't explain or describe 'the authentic' but I know it when I see it.

Peter

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2011, 09:22:44 AM »
By the way, I'm not sure what to do with this newfound information, this diagnosis of my mental makeup.  It helps explain me, but doesn't change anything.  It makes for a good story, and I like telling stories.

All in unison:  Hi Terry!

Billsteele

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2011, 09:23:25 AM »
For those of you who have not checked it out, I would highly recommend John's music blog. His analysis of the artists on his ipod is thoughtful and thoroughly documented. There is also the same kind of writing that appears in this post: personal, introspective and honest (sometimes painfully so).

John Kirk-Having played one round of golf with you at Kingsley, I will confirm that you are well within the acceptable norms of weirdness.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2011, 09:36:02 AM »
John,

I was asking Ben the question because the very few times I have asked my wife to read this site it was for a specific reason. I have not had the chance to review your essay outside of mobile devices and will respond in full when I can. We are only weird if we choose to hang with people unlike ourselves. 

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2011, 09:52:53 AM »
Great. Thanks John, just what I needed, another man-crush in my life.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Peter Pallotta

Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2011, 10:01:30 AM »
Great. Thanks John, just what I needed, another man-crush in my life.

Ha, ha - good one, Charlie.  And that tells me you're man enough to admit to man crushes!  Trouble is we live is such prosaic times -- if we were around in 500 BC, we would be describing it as "philios"  (as oppossed to agape or eros) and would thus be feeling pretty proud instead of mildly embarrassed.

Of course, if we were around back then we'd probably not have any time for discussion boards, only for getting ready to fight the Spartans  (eeeck!) or maybe listening to Socrates.

Poison?!  That means's I'm going to die.

Well yes, but what are you worried about Socrates? I thought you said everything is eternal.

I meant "heavy things" -- rocks, and statues...

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2011, 10:19:30 AM »
This is a little scary:

I own two model train sets (L&N passenger trains circa 1950).
I played Strat-O-Matic baseball as a kid and kept statistics and league records.
I still own my Thinking Man's Golf game and designed numerous courses on posterboard to play.

Nice work, John.  I admire an honest man.

Mike
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 10:38:30 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2011, 10:23:31 AM »
Hi, my name is Terry, and I'm a critic.

Hi, my name is Ryan and I am a cynic and just love playing golf....but this site and my growing golf architecture reading collection is slowly turning me into a critic....and I'm not sure whether I like it or love it.

But, I was really hoping that Terry would write his life store on here.  Damn publc service.  :)

That said, John, great read and thanks for sharing.   I always find reads like this so interesting as I am the exact opposite.

I hope to play golf sometime.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 10:25:10 AM by Ryan Potts »

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2011, 10:30:03 AM »
John,

I like the essay.  I took the spectrum quotient test and it just reaffirmed a lot of things I've known for awhile.  And though it's not an excuse, it is an explanation as to why people react to me the way they sometimes do.  I was not blessed with self-awareness, especially when it comes to speaking about golf courses.

I find that the more I want to learn about all of this stuff, the more critical I become.  It is hard to remain so exuberant and positive the more you learn.  I wish I could bottle the attitude I first had about being a student of golf courses and not a critic.  Maybe this is the burden of the critic.

Thanks for being so honest with us.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2011, 10:34:52 AM »
John,

I am bothered by this quote taken from your essay:

"However, I love to analyze great golf courses, and gladly accept invitations when possible.  It’s nice to feel wanted and appreciated.  I’m competitive about course analysis, too.  I’ll match my ability to analyze architecture with anyone here, except those who build courses for a living."

If you are so good at analyzing architecture why did you join Stone Eagle? 

Ben Kodadek

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2011, 10:38:01 AM »
John Kav,

I thought it was fascinating that John bared his soul on the forum.  It's part of what makes this such a unique place.  My point to her was with regard to the human side of things.  It's not every day you stumble across an essay written with so much introspection.  

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2011, 10:47:58 AM »
John Kav,

I thought it was fascinating that John bared his soul on the forum.  It's part of what makes this such a unique place.  My point to her was with regard to the human side of things.  It's not every day you stumble across an essay written with so much introspection.  

Exactly, that is why the only things I have shown my wife from this site were the writings of Dr. Childs and the pictures of Anthony.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2011, 11:03:34 AM »
John,
Enjoyed both ...essay and blog.....
Mike Y
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2011, 11:06:05 AM »
John,

I am bothered by this quote taken from your essay:

"However, I love to analyze great golf courses, and gladly accept invitations when possible.  It’s nice to feel wanted and appreciated.  I’m competitive about course analysis, too.  I’ll match my ability to analyze architecture with anyone here, except those who build courses for a living."

If you are so good at analyzing architecture why did you join Stone Eagle? 

Because Stone Eagle just looks and plays sweeter every day, my friend.  Perhaps you'd like to play it three times and see.  Nice architecture, and I can walk it every now and then.  It's so beautiful, and should continue to gain acceptance and credibility.

With respect to the arrogant, competitive remarks about golf analysis, a friend who reviewed the essay before I posted noted the harsh nature of that statement.  I left it in anyway.  I tried to make arrogance/confidence a recurring theme.

Gotta go!  Back later, and thanks so much for participating in this thread.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2011, 11:10:07 AM »
John,

Honestly I'm shocked someone reviewed your essay before it was posted.  I just figured you used the same editor as Wayne and Tom.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2011, 11:22:54 AM »
I concur with everything the esteemed Mr. Kirk wrote about himself, except he omitted the part about how many diet sodas he drinks throughout the day.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2011, 02:26:52 PM »
...I’ve always had this powerful memory, which manifests itself in middle age by an increasing capability to synthesize that data into new ideas....

As, I have noticed.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2011, 05:07:59 PM »
Generally down to a single diet Coke each morning before switching to Lipton tea.

Hey, John...why are you busting my balls so hard on this?  What's the point?  You started a couple threads recently, one asking whether you are a critic, and one asking why anybody would want to play with you.  I was just answering your question.

Ben K., I only "bared my soul" to make the case for Asperger's.  Also, to suggest I don't have much of a filter, and what you see as "baring my soul" doesn't seem that personal to me.  I contend there are several contributors here that share this mental organization, or whatever you want to call it.  It comes with the territory.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2011, 06:06:24 PM »

Hey, John...why are you busting my balls so hard on this?  What's the point?  You started a couple threads recently, one asking whether you are a critic, and one asking why anybody would want to play with you.  I was just answering your question.


John,

Is was not my intention to bust your balls.  When I first read your essay I was confused what you wanted from us.  Unlike most on here, I didn't feel obligated to say something so you could feel better about yourself and I could go on with my life like I did a good deed.  You must know that on the surface people may think that we are very much alike, and except for this liking girls obsession of yours, I believe we are. 

I get that you like numbers and stats and all that crap that engineers find easy to function around.  What I don't get, and what you didn't expose is why you are qualified to tell anyone what is better for them then they can discover for themselves.  You see, I respect people who play the critic con game to feed their family rather than earn an honest living.  What I have trouble with are those who believe they have the gift of universal taste discernment.  When I asked if anyone thought they were a critic is was a fools game to see who would answer.  I'm sorry you got caught up in it as it was never my intention to embarrass you.

Damn, and you think you got problems.




Mike Sweeney

Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2011, 08:02:55 PM »
You must know that on the surface people may think that we are very much alike, and except for this liking girls obsession of yours, I believe we are. 


You really are in fantasy land. What is it like in Jakaworld? Gib, Gib where are you !! LOL.

If you find two other people here who think you are similar to John Kirk, I will pay your dues at Hotchkiss this season and support your application to The Seth Raynor Society.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2011, 08:08:35 PM »
You must know that on the surface people may think that we are very much alike, and except for this liking girls obsession of yours, I believe we are. 


You really are in fantasy land. What is it like in Jakaworld? Gib, Gib where are you !! LOL.

If you find two other people here who think you are similar to John Kirk, I will pay your dues at Hotchkiss this season and support your application to The Seth Raynor Society.

Ahhhhh........no!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2011, 08:26:08 PM »
You must know that on the surface people may think that we are very much alike, and except for this liking girls obsession of yours, I believe we are. 


You really are in fantasy land. What is it like in Jakaworld? Gib, Gib where are you !! LOL.

If you find two other people here who think you are similar to John Kirk, I will pay your dues at Hotchkiss this season and support your application to The Seth Raynor Society.

What did John ever do to you.  It's not that big of a stretch.

An interesting turn of events happened since my last post.  I'm heading out for a whirlwind trip from Omaha to Denver and called Adam Clayman about Awarii Dunes.  I didn't call him as a critic but took value in his opinion which I am using to formulate my trip options. 


John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2011, 08:36:47 PM »
Thank you, John.  I've got a lot to work with here.

I don't "want" anything from the group, except for them to read my essay.  I want them to think about it.  I fancy myself a writer these days, and now and then I think up a good story to tell.  In my opinion, a good story makes people think; hopefully the readers will interpret the story in different ways.  I was quite nervous about posting this essay.  It is a wild story to post here, with seemingly distant ties to golf course analysis, but it has served its purpose.  The responses are varied and interesting.  My theory is that analytical people like me populate this site.

I did not intend to make this a sob story about my life.  I have received a few friendly messages from longtime friends suggesting I'm too hard on myself.  I am compelled to see the flaws, highlight the mistakes I've made, but the greater message I'm trying to convey is: I'm 52, I'm still learning about myself every year, I'm still figuring out what to do with that knowledge, and I'm equipped to do this better than you can.  And yes, I really like girls.

In the Ratatouille quote, the great critic Anton Ego says:

"But the bitter truth we critics must face is that, in the grand scheme of things, the average piece of junk is more meaningful than our criticism designating it so."

If we are not here to judge and assess golf courses, why does Golf Club Atlas exist?  I thought the purpose of the website, the overriding passion of this website, is to analyze and evaluate what makes golf enjoyable.  It is not a fool's game, as you suggest.  There are tangible, measurable aspects of golf courses which compel many of us to evaluate them.

I've been collecting music since I was a kid, and when I received my first iPod for Christmas in 2004, I started transferring music into it.  The project snowballed into a full blown quest to create the ideal collection for a typical guy my age.  What methodology do I use to create the best collection, without spending undue time reviewing music to identify the best songs?

I refer to music reviews, and analyze the writing of critics before me who've already done the strenuous work of identifying the best songs.  I take their suggestions and filter them through my own lens to determine my list.  That's the only way I have a fighting chance to present the reader with a strong list of songs to suggest.

Similarly, we use this website to identify which golf courses sound good to us, and seem worth the effort and money to play.  Critics matter because they help us narrow the list, so we can find what we like best without excessive investigation.

Now, you and I engaged in what I consider a fine debate by comparing The Riviera and Sand Hills golf courses.  You are clearly capable of engaging in debate and criticism.  Like me, you choose to critique in a positive manner, though it's hard to find fault with the two grand subjects.  It was great fun, and I loved participating.  But I must ask you, if you are not here to evaluate golf courses, why do you participate?

I do not have the gift of universal taste discernment.  I am programmed to evaluate and assess.  I am competitive about it.

"But there are times when a critic truly risks something, and that is in the discovery and defense of the new."

Several people latched onto this part of the Anton Ego speech, thinking I was alluding to my support for new courses.  I knew it was there, but it wasn't trying to make a big deal about it.  I like all golf courses.

If I had to write it again, I might have left out my disillusionment with the country club social scene.  But I'm a bit weary of it.  I'm tired of golf in general.  I've earned my degree in course analysis, I've played the best I'll ever play, and there's nothing left except to make friends.  However, there's a subtle, secondary message I'm trying to make.  Golf Club Atlas is a very exclusive club, where we are able to gain access to many of the country's best golf clubs.  If you are not here to "promote frank commentary on golf courses", Ran Morrissett's own words, then why are you, meaning all participants, here?

« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 08:58:52 PM by John Kirk »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2011, 09:09:49 PM »
"I'm tired of golf in general.  I've earned my degree in course analysis, I've played the best I'll ever play, and there's nothing left except to make friends."

John,

You are not the first person who I have seen enter this site as an enthusiastic golfer and end up a tired critic.  Somewhere in there is this fools game that I have been trying to identify for years. 

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Inside The Mind Of A Critic
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2011, 09:13:16 PM »

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