The Double Standard: Modern Greens vs. Classic Greens

[John Kirk]

Members and guests alike have complained about the severity of Stone Eagle's greens.  Yet, suggest that the greens at Crystal Downs or Pasatiempo be modified, and you are subject to lifelong condemnation for those who used to love you.

The greens at Stone Eagle are far less severe than these courses, and many others revered by the cognoscenti.  It's a blatant double standard.

[JESII]

Or is it just a matter of Stone Eagle's greens standing the test of time?

[John Kirk]

Or is it just a matter of Stone Eagle's greens standing the test of time?

Hmmm...thinking about that one...what does that have to do with the quality of the greens?

[JESII]

All you described in your post was people's perception of the greens...that's what I was addressing.

Is green quality a fact or an opinion?

[John Kirk]

All you described in your post was people's perception of the greens...that's what I was addressing.

Is green quality a fact or an opinion?

It's an opinion.  I say opinions are biased by a course's overall standing.  Courses may gain notoriety and fame through the years, but the grens stay pretty much the same.

[George Pazin]

Members and guests alike have complained about the severity of Stone Eagle's greens.  Yet, suggest that the greens at Crystal Downs or Pasatiempo be modified, and you are subject to lifelong condemnation for those who used to love you.

Do you find this to be the case within the same groups of people? It always worries me how many people think any greens should be modified, even the classics.

[Jason Topp]

John:

For what it is worth, here were my thoughts from a thread I started after first playing StoneEagle in 2006 on this thread

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22539.0.html


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The greens represent the true test of the ideal espoused by many on this site of sacrificing speed for interesting contours.  It will be interesting to see how it is received over time because when playing it once, you can hit a pretty good iron shot and be left with an impossible two putt.  By the same token, it is really fun to use the slopes on the green to feed shots to the pin.  In addition, when putting the longer grass on the green creates some grain that definitely has an impact.  When combined with the slopes on the greens as well as the steep nature of the property, it is a real challenge to get it in the hole.

Many of the people we talked with in the area do not know what to make of the course.  My guess is that people will enjoy it more and more with repeat play.  It is so unlike your typical desert course that it definitely is an acquired taste. 
 
...


Do people grow to like Stone Eagle's greens as they learn them in your experience?

[JESII]

John,

I agree with you about people's bias'.

The test of time argument is pretty strong. Today, people can think they are correct about Stone Eagle but they have to know thousands have come before them at Pasatiempo and Crystal Downs.

[John Kirk]

Yes, Jason.  The (remaining) members adore the place.  Many one time visitors who visited early in the course's life, avoid it.  If they came back and played it several times, they might begin to appreciate it more.

But I don't want this to be about Stone Eagle.  Maybe I should have used another example.  Modern courses like The Madison Club or many of Jack Nicklaus's recent courses have followed suit, building highly undulating green surfaces.  I think some wild greens are better than others, and believe it takes nuance and intelligence to get it right.  Not all wild greens are created equal.

[John Kirk]

John,

I agree with you about people's bias'.

The test of time argument is pretty strong. Today, people can think they are correct about Stone Eagle but they have to know thousands have come before them at Pasatiempo and Crystal Downs.

Yes, perhaps you are right, and even as thoughtful a man as my own father has walked away from Pasatiempo saying, "Well, the greens are kinda goofy here."

[Peter Pallotta]

Hey, what do you know, I can actually comment usefully on something, having played Crystal Downs!

But why start being useful so late in life...

To channel Bob Crosby -- greens, like hamburgers and lawn darts and baseball mitts, just ARE

To channel John Kavanaugh - i hate golfers, everything is always about them. best if all the whiners took up bowling.

Me: greens are the same wherever you go. if I suck as a golfer it's not the greens' fault -- ever.  if I was a better ball striker, I could've hit my approach shots to better spots on Crystal Downs' greens; if I was a better scrambler, I could've chipped and pitched and sand-blasted my way to a decent position after missing those greens; and if I was a better putter, I could've made all my previous mistakes less painful and saved par plenty of times.

But I'm none of those things.

And I bet few of those who play Stone Eagle are either.

But if those Stone Eagle greens survive the wrath and bile of those hacks for a couple of more decades, they'll be safe.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

The double standard is that on old-time greens, people give MacKenzie the benefit of the doubt, because there is no way he visualized the greens running at 10 or 12 on the Stimpmeter and we're really not sure if he would build a green that steep if he was still around to see what golf course maintenance has become.

Whereas, there is no question that I am building such severe greens on purpose.

But, the inspiration for my own greens is from having an intimate familiarity with those older greens you are talking about and understanding the limits of what does or doesn't work on those greens at modern speeds.  There are plenty of players who disagree with my assessment of where the line of difficulty must be drawn ... and nearly all of them are better ball strikers than putters.  [Shocker.]