Seaview Bay: How Good Is It?

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

My good friend -- ranking things, of all types, has been going on and continues in all things. 19th holes are full of such discussions.

Doug, the issue is elevating Bay beyond what is ACTUALLY PRESENT. Too many people fixate on what it might be. Read what others have written -- especially those who aren't into the genuflecting posture. Mike C said it best -- there are plenty of things that could be done to make the place far better.

Doug, it's closer to an executive style layout than you think. The LPGA has a grand time there because scoring is so plentiful.

No doubt Lederach is different and it would be better if kept at a firmer pace. If forced to choose I'd take the PA layout three out of four rounds.

[Sean_A]

Mike & Kyle

SB sounds a winner.  Maybe if I ever visit Philly again it should be on the itinerary.  Who knows about these no name courses?  Sometimes they really surprise as did Lederach.  I think about that course often and marvel at what was built, but also wonder what could have been if the course were a stand alone project.  How does SB stand up to Lederach?

Ciao  

Sean-

  I'm not certain that one can really compare the two, besides the fact that they're both 18 holes and accessible to the public.   I really don't know why the hell we always have to compare, contrast, and 'rank' courses.  It's just not necessary.  (Yes, Matt, I mean you.  I like you, but we don't always have to rank courses).

Frankly, and this is pointed at everybody, I'm not even sure why we still use Doak numbers to rank golf courses, as this list is close to 15 years old.  Maybe Doak gets a pass because of who he is, I don't know.  

Many here choose to harp on Seaview for its relative lack of length, because of lack of anything else to criticize.  To call a spade a spade, yes, it is shorter.  It was built around 1916 and can't go much longer.  Give it a rest.  However, many of the holes are oriented to take advantage of the wind, and wind is everpresent down here.  Some holes are into the wind, some downwind, some crosswind. 

But, executive course?  No f'ing way.  

Lederach is built within a housing development on heavy clay soil.  It has outstanding holes that the presence of housing and maintenance take away from.  This is no shot on the architect, but a shot on the management.  This course needs to be maintained dry and fast, not soggy.  Having said that, the soil is heavy clay.

This course would be outstanding if was anywhere else, sandier soil, windier site, absence of homes and retention basins.  But, it is what it is.  It's still a good golf course.  

I often wonder about courses like this--Forsgate and Lederach are two that come to mind--if you could pick them up and place them somewhere without the housing, how much more attractive they would be.  But we can't, so I'm dropping this.

Both courses are fun and enjoyable in their own right. I do think Lederach would be better on a windy or sandy site.

It's not even night and day, Sean--it's apples and oranges.  Two different things.  I have played with you, and I think you would enjoy Seaview in the way you enjoyed Mid Pines a few years back.  As I think you'd probably enjoy Atlantic City.  Come down anytime, we would be happy to have you.  

  

Doug

Thank you.  I didn't mean to ask for a ranking.  I like to use compare and contrast as a way get a feel for a course.  Its the best way I know how to do that along with pix if I have never seen the course.  Even mentioning Mid Pines is helpful because I know that course isn't one I would highly recommend even though I enjoyed my game and the course very much. 

Yes, courses can be two different things, but I don't buy that any two courses can't be compared/contrasted.  Afterall, golf courses have far more in common than not.  In my experience an inability to to c&c is down to either laziness, lack of time, lack of knowledge , lack of skills or any combination of these.  That isn't a knock on you in the slightest because most seem to fall back on the "it can't be done" theory - including myself even if I never say it that way.

If it makes you feel any better, SB doesn't like an executive course to me - tee hee.  If that were the case some world class courses in England would be executive designs.


Ciao

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mike & Kyle

SB sounds a winner.  Maybe if I ever visit Philly again it should be on the itinerary.  Who knows about these no name courses?  Sometimes they really surprise as did Lederach.  I think about that course often and marvel at what was built, but also wonder what could have been if the course were a stand alone project.  How does SB stand up to Lederach?

Ciao  

Sean-

  I'm not certain that one can really compare the two, besides the fact that they're both 18 holes and accessible to the public.   I really don't know why the hell we always have to compare, contrast, and 'rank' courses.  It's just not necessary.  (Yes, Matt, I mean you.  I like you, but we don't always have to rank courses).

Frankly, and this is pointed at everybody, I'm not even sure why we still use Doak numbers to rank golf courses, as this list is close to 15 years old.  Maybe Doak gets a pass because of who he is, I don't know.  

Many here choose to harp on Seaview for its relative lack of length, because of lack of anything else to criticize.  To call a spade a spade, yes, it is shorter.  It was built around 1916 and can't go much longer.  Give it a rest.  However, many of the holes are oriented to take advantage of the wind, and wind is everpresent down here.  Some holes are into the wind, some downwind, some crosswind. 

But, executive course?  No f'ing way.  

Lederach is built within a housing development on heavy clay soil.  It has outstanding holes that the presence of housing and maintenance take away from.  This is no shot on the architect, but a shot on the management.  This course needs to be maintained dry and fast, not soggy.  Having said that, the soil is heavy clay.

This course would be outstanding if was anywhere else, sandier soil, windier site, absence of homes and retention basins.  But, it is what it is.  It's still a good golf course.  

I often wonder about courses like this--Forsgate and Lederach are two that come to mind--if you could pick them up and place them somewhere without the housing, how much more attractive they would be.  But we can't, so I'm dropping this.

Both courses are fun and enjoyable in their own right. I do think Lederach would be better on a windy or sandy site.

It's not even night and day, Sean--it's apples and oranges.  Two different things.  I have played with you, and I think you would enjoy Seaview in the way you enjoyed Mid Pines a few years back.  As I think you'd probably enjoy Atlantic City.  Come down anytime, we would be happy to have you.  

  

Doug

Thank you.  I didn't mean to ask for a ranking.  I like to use compare and contrast as a way get a feel for a course.  Its the best way I know how to do that along with pix if I have never seen the course.  Even mentioning Mid Pines is helpful because I know that course isn't one I would highly recommend even though I enjoyed my game and the course very much. 

Yes, courses can be two different things, but I don't buy that any two courses can't be compared/contrasted.  Afterall, golf courses have far more in common than not.  In my experience an inability to to c&c is down to either laziness, lack of time, lack of knowledge , lack of skills or any combination of these.  That isn't a knock on you in the slightest because most seem to fall back on the "it can't be done" theory - including myself even if I never say it that way.

If it makes you feel any better, SB doesn't like an executive course to me - tee hee.  If that were the case some world class courses in England would be executive designs.


Ciao

Sean-

  That was what I was thinking of.  I don't have experience playing in England, but I do know of some of the courses you speak of frequently.  I did think you liked Mid Pines, or rather preferred it to Pine Needles.  SB and Mid Pines both have that smaller "scale" to them that I have talked about from time to time on here.  When the wind is up, SB is a test for anyone.  One will encounter many holes with small greens, especially the holes abutting the marshes (2 green, 6 green, 8, 12 green, 14 green, 15) where one needs to be careful or else one will court a 6 very quickly. 

  A course with the features of Lederach (the golf holes, not including the homes, heavy clay soil, and wetlands) would be an absolute gas placed on a location with sandy soils and wind similar to Seaview.  To this end, I seem to recall Kelly saying he drew a lot of inspiration for Lederach from St Andrews.  I am not saying Reeds Bay and St Andrews Bay are the same conditions, but maybe more similar than different.  (Are there casinos in Scotland?)

  It appears that work is in progress on some of the holes to improve drainage.  Green expansion would be welcomed as well.  Overall, yes, the course needs a little TLC.  I don't think the course is a compelling value in season.  It's good.  It's not great, but could be very good with appropriate maintenance. 

[JNC Lyon]

I always have trouble using the Doak Scale, especially since I don't own the book and don't have the entire scale memorized.  However, from your list Sean there is a dramatic variation in the golf courses that Doak listed uniformly as "6."  For example, he rates both Deal and Worplesdon a 6, but I think these two courses are not even remotely in the same league.  While Worplesdon is a fine layout, Deal is much stronger all the way around.

Therefore, I find it difficult to compare different courses on the Doak Scale, especially since Doak's own rankings are inconsistent in my mind.  Seaview Bay is not as good as Deal or Worplesdon.  Yet that does not mean it isn't still worth playing.  Seaview Bay is a classic, public-access layout that contains some great design features (cross bunkers, gathering bunkers, fall-away greens, great short fours, an intimate routing).  If you are a classic course buff who is interested in the work of Donald Ross or Hugh Wilson, Seaview Bay is an excellent course to see.  If a course that is under 6,500 yards is inadequate for you, than go to one of the many modern layouts in the area.

Is Seaview Bay an executive course?  As Kyle Harris pointed out to me, any course under 6,000 yards is defined as an "executive layout."  Seaview tops out at 6,300 yards, so no, it is not an executive layout.  There are several great courses in the UK (and a few in the US) that might be considered "executive" layouts in the technical sense.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

With all due respect -- the hyperbole is getting a bit much don't you think - "classic" -- "great design features" -- are we talking about Pine Valley -- you don't seriously see the Bay in that Zeus-like light ? "Great short par-4's" -- then the ones at Forsgate or a few other NJ courses I have played would be all-universe in terms of what they provide.

As someone who has a modicum of understanding of the Jersey golf scene -- I can name no less than half a dozen courses in NJ that play less than 6,500 yards and have the goods on what they Bay provides.

Course length is 6,247 yards and that's from the tips.  From the white it's just over 6,000. People can quibble about the tag line "executive" but it's nothing more than a sporty course and I'm being frankly generous in that application.

Mike Cirba's comments are spot on -- he sees the deficiencies and notes what is needed to make it better than what is there.

For all the banging of the drum for the Bay -- the folks doing so need to play quite a few other Jersey courses too better understrand what is available and how others have the goods to be in the near 6 Doak scale range.

Doak's 6 level -- says "not necessarily worth a special trip to play." And, it should not disaapoint you. Clearly, the base for some people is different than others -- mine especially. The Jersey golf scene has a few sleepers worthy of note -- I mentioned Morris County GC in Convent Station as a great counterpoint. There the layout is under the 6,500 yard limit and the range of holes and design features that Raynor provided there is nothing short of magical. Check it out at morriscgc.com.

Here's the Doak 4 definition and it fits perfectly for me on the Bay ...

"A modestly interesting course with a couple of distinctive holes among the 18, o at least some scenic interest and decent golf. Also reserved for some very good courses that are too short or narrow to provide sufficient challenge for accomplished golfers.

Amen ...

[Jaeger Kovich]

I was going through some old scorecards earlier this week researching for a blog post... Some of the courses I've played under 6,500 yards:  

Seaview (NJ), 6247 yards
Southern Pines (NC), 6268
Deadham Polo (MA), 6223
Equinox (VT), 6432
Pinehurst No 3 (NC), 5682 Doak 4
Rockaway Hunt (NY), 6251 Doak 4

and I'm pretty sure Mid-Pines (NC) was just over 6,500

I'd put Seaview somewhere in the middle of this group, with So Pines leading the way.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Just checked... ACCC is a  Doak 6, but that was '89. Headed there tomorrow

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

I don't think I used "hyperbole" in my last post. I use "classic" in the sense that Golfweek uses "classic:" to denote a course built before 1960.  Seaview was built during the Golden Age, and it contains the architecture of Ross and Wilson, two of the great architects from that era.  Hence, Seaview Bay is a "classic" course.

"Great Design Features?"  I listed a few features that I consider great design features that also appear on the Bay Course.  That does not mean the Bay is a "great" courses through and through, but there are some features and aspects of it that I consider "great."  10 and 12 were very fun and highly strategic short par fours, but I can't expect everyone to agree on that.  Seaview is far from a perfect layout, although I found something I liked on every hole, which is not that common.

I have never made an attempt to compare Seaview Bay to other courses in the AC area.  I've only played Seaview and McCullough's, so I'm not really authorized to make comparisons within the region.  I'm pointing out that Seaview Bay is a course that is worth seeing if you are interested in Golden Age architecture.  I made a special trip to see it, and I wasn't the least bit disappointed.

If Seaview Bay is a Doak 4, then so be it.  I just don't care for the scale that much.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

Let's rewind the tape shall we.

Just because Ross and Wilson are great architects for their top work -- not everything they did was a home run. The Bay is a "classic" because it just so happens to be an old course. Read what an astute observer like Mike Cirba said. It is spot on. You are enamored with the course and by all means you're entitled to your opinion.

But, you need to place your comments in some sort of context. You may not have played a more wider assemblage of courses within NJ that are 6,500 yards and less but contain more design details that can still be relevant for one's 2011 golf game. I recommended a few of them but what the hell do I know about Jersey golf ?

When you back pedal and say the course has a "few features" the emphasis should be more towards the word "few" because frankly many other elements are submerged through the out-of-place trees and bunkers which are in need of upgrading for both presentation and placement to deal with today's tech game. The greens are good in spots but nothing of the sort that cries out spectacular or anything close to that level.

JNC, be mindful of the word "great." It is thrown around with too much frequency to be of little consequence and frankly undercuts your unbridled love for the place. Candidly, in my limited info base, you need a bit more personal homework before anchoring such love to what the Bay provides.

The Bay is not worth making a special trip to see -- you would not know that because your supply of other 6,500 yard or less NJ courses is so lacking. You are free to heap praise as you see fit. Read Doak 4 defined courses. It is spot on and it itemizes why the Bay has its moments but they are from consistent and genrally fleeting. An overall corrective action plan could do much for the course. If you ever have the inclination to see the courses I am speaking about -- I'd be happy to serve as your guide. 

[Kyle Harris]

I haven't really read any comments that seem to be placing the Bay Course in an extremely high light. Who is saying the course is great? We learn in day one of debate class that an opponent with not much substance to the argument is likely to counter that the opposing argument is pushing an extreme. You're better than that, Matt. Try harder.

Matt, this is a discovery and critical process, not a conclusive effort.

[JNC Lyon]

JNC:

Let's rewind the tape shall we.

Just because Ross and Wilson are great architects for their top work -- not everything they did was a home run. The Bay is a "classic" because it just so happens to be an old course. Read what an astute observer like Mike Cirba said. It is spot on. You are enamored with the course and by all means you're entitled to your opinion.

But, you need to place your comments in some sort of context. You may not have played a more wider assemblage of courses within NJ that are 6,500 yards and less but contain more design details that can still be relevant for one's 2011 golf game. I recommended a few of them but what the hell do I know about Jersey golf ?

When you back pedal and say the course has a "few features" the emphasis should be more towards the word "few" because frankly many other elements are submerged through the out-of-place trees and bunkers which are in need of upgrading for both presentation and placement to deal with today's tech game. The greens are good in spots but nothing of the sort that cries out spectacular or anything close to that level.

JNC, be mindful of the word "great." It is thrown around with too much frequency to be of little consequence and frankly undercuts your unbridled love for the place. Candidly, in my limited info base, you need a bit more personal homework before anchoring such love to what the Bay provides.

The Bay is not worth making a special trip to see -- you would not know that because your supply of other 6,500 yard or less NJ courses is so lacking. You are free to heap praise as you see fit. Read Doak 4 defined courses. It is spot on and it itemizes why the Bay has its moments but they are from consistent and genrally fleeting. An overall corrective action plan could do much for the course. If you ever have the inclination to see the courses I am speaking about -- I'd be happy to serve as your guide.  

Matt,

I definitely have an interest in the courses you're talking about.  You mentioned Morris County earlier, which I would love to see as a fan of Raynor.  If you read my posts on this site, you'll realize that I am always willing to hear about and see new golf courses.  It's one of things I love most as a fan of golf course architecture.  If you have recommendations on solid sub-6,500 yard publics in NJ, I'd be more than happy to hear them.

I don't think I ever back-peddled from any of my comments.  Like Kyle said, I never argued that the Bay Course is a "great" golf course.  I simply said that it had some "great" features and offered a lot of interesting architecture from two great architectures.  Each hole at the Bay Course had something positive to offer in my view.  I didn't try to place it in context with New Jersey courses or courses on the Doak Scale.  I've played four golf courses in New Jersey, and I don't own the Confidential Guide, so I definitely couldn't do either.  That doesn't mean I'm not qualified to analyze the merits of Seaview, but I analyze the merits outside the category of "Jersey Golf."  As I said in my first post, Seaview Bay has many things that I look for in a golf course, and I would be satisfied playing the course day-in and day-out.  Maybe that makes me an architectural simpleton, but so be it.

I really enjoyed the Bay Course.  It has some architectural features that I consider great.  It could be improved in many different ways.  Seaview Bay was well worth the trip away from the cold rain and snow in Upstate New York.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

I don't doubt the Bay would be refreshing given the harsh winter you have been facing. Just about any course could fit that bill of need.

My point was if you played other -6,500 yard courses I have mentioned you would see how far the Bay has to go in order to be rated at the Doak 5 or even Doak 6 levels.

The Bay serves well the LPGA and the overall structure of what the facility provides is really good.

I will be giving some thought in creating a "best" listing of courses under 6,500 yards in NJ and then post them.

JNC -- you have stated that "great" elements exist at the Bay. I disagree. The Bay has elements of note -- some are good to possibly very good -- but they are extremely fleeting and more often -- are elements that are in a "what if" they were improved and how would they be seen then.

JNC -- placing courses in context is crucial -- if you think the place is that special for you -- then knock yourself out and play it again and again. I would say -- as I have previously -- that seeing the broader landscape allows me to try to provide you some contexual perspective.

Kyle:

Here is the initial thrust of JNC on the Bay Course ...

"Seaview Bay is a classic, public-access layout that contains some great design features (cross bunkers, gathering bunkers, fall-away greens, great short fours, an intimate routing)."

Kyle, I agree this is a discoverty process -- but it needs to be kept in some context. People are way overgushing on a few items there and I repeat again what the Doak #4 rated course would be. Fits the Bay perfectly. Mike Cirba weighed in well with his astute comments on what needs to be done there. Does the Bay have elements that can be improvedl. Absolutely. However, people need to weigh those comments in some form of context and realize there's a big difference between what is and what might be.

The argument has been made by you, JNC and Joe B. You are the guys who are raving about the course and have it at a Doak 6 level. C'mon -- do you think someone like myself -- a person who has lived in NJ for the bulk of my life and have played all the key courses in the state several times over is prone to exaggeration?

Kyle, with all due respect, do the legwork before you throw me under the bus -- who knows, maybe you might gain from something I might say. Heaven forbid that should happen.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

I have not been raving about the course. I've been attempting to pick apart and understand your rhetoric. There is a difference and you're lumping me in under statements I have not made simply because I've taken a contrary or critical view of your statements. I understand this works in a political arena but with all respect, there is nothing I have said about the golf course that strays from Mike Cirba's or even your view on its place in the pantheon of architecture. I feel like your repeated mentions of me doing the legwork to place the golf course in a more proper context are only injected into the conversation to give your considerable playing resume more exposure. This argument from experience, while a necessary tool, cannot be used solely to discredit my or JNC's views - which differ - and which we've been over in the past.

Your tactic here is very simple. You place the opposing in an extreme light and then when the opponent attempts to clarify you accuse of back-pedaling. You were the one bringing Pine Valley and Forsgate to the discussion, for example. Who else made these comparisons?

This gives the appearance that you've swayed an opinion when really what you're doing is misrepresenting the initial thought as a way to validate your own view.

Nobody here is placing Seaview Bay as anything more than an enjoyable day. I appreciate the opportunity cost argument for a trip to Atlantic City and I share your opinion. It would not be my first recommendation for the area.

[Joe Bausch]

I'm trying to remember where in this thread me, JNC, or Kyle ever even gave a Doak score to the course.  Master-debater that Matt Ward.

[mike_malone]

 I said "why no love" in my value statement. While I certainly don't see it as a Doak 7 or a 3 I find that the course was very enjoyable. There was much variety in the playing of the course. The need for many different shots particularly around the greens was pleasing.

[JNC Lyon]

I said "why no love" in my value statement. While I certainly don't see it as a Doak 7 or a 3 I find that the course was very enjoyable. There was much variety in the playing of the course. The need for many different shots particularly around the greens was pleasing.

Thanks Mike.  I, too, found variety and interest throughout Seaview Bay, especially around the greens.  For me, that makes for a pretty ideal playing experience.  I understand it's not enough for others, and I realize Seaview has its flaws.  However, a course like Seaview that creates variety around the greens will always rate highly in my view.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

When you say "rate highly" - what does that mean specifically ?

Let me ask you this if 100% is set for places like Pine Valley - what specific percentage number would you set for the Bay ?

If you see it beyond 50% then you are enamored a bit too much for my tastes. If and when you play the courses I will mention on a separate thread you will see what I am speaking about.

One other aspect - your focus is squarely on the greens -- you need, in my opinion, to focus more on the shotmaking that proceeds that part of the course. Driving and approach play have a clear role that needs to be added to the total picture.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

It's amazing -- you love to play the counter-puncher in the discussion but you never venture any clear specifics besides your zeal at throwing others (me) under the bus because I don't spit back what you want to hear.

I'll say this again in the event you missed it -- the Bay is nothing more than a Doak 4 in my mind. It has potential -- so do countless other courses. When you also have layout that has little in terms of real length -- it has to offer greens and surrounding areas which really up the ante considerably -- the Bay doesn't. Want an alternative that does? Try Somerset Hills in No Jersey which is just over 6,500 yards.

Kyle, let me help you out if I may -- I've played the Bay numerous times over a span of many years. That doesn't make me right but it gives me a bit more contextual perspective. Experience and multiple rounds allow ANY player an advantage over those who see the course in a limited way.

When people play the Bay you need to see other examples of courses that are 6,500 or under and realize that they provide some of the things that really hit home design wise and are a good bit more advanced and complete than the Bay.
Kyle, if you have the time and desire -- I'd be happy to expand your knowledge of key courses that fit the short length (under 6,500) and you can draw your own conclusions on what I have provided on this thread.

[Sean_A]

Mike & Kyle

SB sounds a winner.  Maybe if I ever visit Philly again it should be on the itinerary.  Who knows about these no name courses?  Sometimes they really surprise as did Lederach.  I think about that course often and marvel at what was built, but also wonder what could have been if the course were a stand alone project.  How does SB stand up to Lederach?

Ciao  

Sean-

  I'm not certain that one can really compare the two, besides the fact that they're both 18 holes and accessible to the public.   I really don't know why the hell we always have to compare, contrast, and 'rank' courses.  It's just not necessary.  (Yes, Matt, I mean you.  I like you, but we don't always have to rank courses).

Frankly, and this is pointed at everybody, I'm not even sure why we still use Doak numbers to rank golf courses, as this list is close to 15 years old.  Maybe Doak gets a pass because of who he is, I don't know.  

Many here choose to harp on Seaview for its relative lack of length, because of lack of anything else to criticize.  To call a spade a spade, yes, it is shorter.  It was built around 1916 and can't go much longer.  Give it a rest.  However, many of the holes are oriented to take advantage of the wind, and wind is everpresent down here.  Some holes are into the wind, some downwind, some crosswind. 

But, executive course?  No f'ing way.  

Lederach is built within a housing development on heavy clay soil.  It has outstanding holes that the presence of housing and maintenance take away from.  This is no shot on the architect, but a shot on the management.  This course needs to be maintained dry and fast, not soggy.  Having said that, the soil is heavy clay.

This course would be outstanding if was anywhere else, sandier soil, windier site, absence of homes and retention basins.  But, it is what it is.  It's still a good golf course.  

I often wonder about courses like this--Forsgate and Lederach are two that come to mind--if you could pick them up and place them somewhere without the housing, how much more attractive they would be.  But we can't, so I'm dropping this.

Both courses are fun and enjoyable in their own right. I do think Lederach would be better on a windy or sandy site.

It's not even night and day, Sean--it's apples and oranges.  Two different things.  I have played with you, and I think you would enjoy Seaview in the way you enjoyed Mid Pines a few years back.  As I think you'd probably enjoy Atlantic City.  Come down anytime, we would be happy to have you.  

  

Doug

Thank you.  I didn't mean to ask for a ranking.  I like to use compare and contrast as a way get a feel for a course.  Its the best way I know how to do that along with pix if I have never seen the course.  Even mentioning Mid Pines is helpful because I know that course isn't one I would highly recommend even though I enjoyed my game and the course very much. 

Yes, courses can be two different things, but I don't buy that any two courses can't be compared/contrasted.  Afterall, golf courses have far more in common than not.  In my experience an inability to to c&c is down to either laziness, lack of time, lack of knowledge , lack of skills or any combination of these.  That isn't a knock on you in the slightest because most seem to fall back on the "it can't be done" theory - including myself even if I never say it that way.

If it makes you feel any better, SB doesn't like an executive course to me - tee hee.  If that were the case some world class courses in England would be executive designs.


Ciao

Sean-

  That was what I was thinking of.  I don't have experience playing in England, but I do know of some of the courses you speak of frequently.  I did think you liked Mid Pines, or rather preferred it to Pine Needles.  SB and Mid Pines both have that smaller "scale" to them that I have talked about from time to time on here.  When the wind is up, SB is a test for anyone.  One will encounter many holes with small greens, especially the holes abutting the marshes (2 green, 6 green, 8, 12 green, 14 green, 15) where one needs to be careful or else one will court a 6 very quickly. 

  A course with the features of Lederach (the golf holes, not including the homes, heavy clay soil, and wetlands) would be an absolute gas placed on a location with sandy soils and wind similar to Seaview.  To this end, I seem to recall Kelly saying he drew a lot of inspiration for Lederach from St Andrews.  I am not saying Reeds Bay and St Andrews Bay are the same conditions, but maybe more similar than different.  (Are there casinos in Scotland?)

  It appears that work is in progress on some of the holes to improve drainage.  Green expansion would be welcomed as well.  Overall, yes, the course needs a little TLC.  I don't think the course is a compelling value in season.  It's good.  It's not great, but could be very good with appropriate maintenance. 

Doug

Yes, I found the maintenance a bit wanting even in high season at Lederach, but not nearly enough to put me off.  I think Lederach is great value and would play it over a few of the privates I saw in Philly.  Though, all the courses I saw were good and its just a matter of personal taste as to preferences. 

JNC

I too struggle with the Doak Scale because first of all its his scale and only he really knows it properly.  Second, I think my interest and emphasis in what I am looking for doesn't match up too tight with Doak.  Third, I think there is too much suggested difference in the quality of the scores.  In other words, quality of design is suggested when in fact it is personal preference dividing some of the scores.  That said, his scale is a good as anything I have seen so what the hell.  Just for your piece of mind, there is no question that Deal has it over Worplesdon - both in terms of quality and as a place I would recommend others see.  The area where Worp catches up is in value.  Worp is of good enough quality where the value aspect matters.  Bottom line for me is Deal has gotten too greedy to the point where the course isn't good enough to justify the visitor fee.  A lot of wonderful courses fall in this category and one day these lot will be but a distant memory for the rank and file golfer because most will not pony up.     

Joe

I believe Mike C talked about SB being a 5.5 (which is a 6) and the reason I posted on this thread.  Its clear that there are a handful of folks who clearly like the course even if they cannot claim SB is great or even a favourite.  This is a very understable position and why MW can't appreciate it is unclear to me.     

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

I'm taking you up on your offer. We also have to get to Jeffersonville, if you'll recall.

[JNC Lyon]

Sean,

I'm not really familiar with the fee structures at Deal and Worplesdon, but if you play as a guest of a member at either place, the fees are nearly identical.

Matt,

I'm not really trying to rate Seaview Bay in relation to other courses.  Even so, I know I would rate Seaview at over 50%.  50% is a failing grade anywhere.  Do you really thinking Seaview gets a failing grade?  Remember, the Doak Scale is skewed upward, so that a Doak 4 is better than the vast majority of golf courses.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

I never said anything about failing -- I just asked you to give it a percentage number. 50% for one person can be a good bit different than another.

In regards to the Doak rating numbers -- 3 is an average number -- I see the Bay just above that at 4. Re-read the definition he provided that I listed previously. It spells things out quite well.

Sean:

Help me out -- do you follow the discussion or do you simply spit back what's e-z to say ?

I've been going to Seaview for well over 30+ years -- have played the course multiple times and in a range of weather
and course conditions.

I "appreciate" the course for WHAT IT IS -- not in some sort of dream-like haze that has people elevating it to some sort of Doak 6 layout -- which it's not close to being in my mind.

Sean, try to realize that certain people have seen / played the course(s) in question no less the amt of times you have played Pennard. I would not presume to think someone who has played the course once or twice would be able to really delve into the many elements that multiple plays you have experienced there.

Kyle:

I can make the trek to Jeffersonville -- but that's the only one you've got to mention -- you'll need to have your E-Z pass ready because your Jersey golf education is just going to explode this season.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC / Kyle:

Here are a few of my choices in NJ for courses at 6,500 or under total yards from tip tees.

They are not arranged in preference but are worthy to play to get a fuller appreciation of what they provide.

Likely only one or two of them would rate a possible Doak 6.

Maybe we can arrange a visit to a few of them this coming golf season.



Morris County Golf Club / Convent Station
 
Lake Mohawk / Sparta
 
Montclair #2 & #3 / West Orange
 
Woodcrest CC / Cherry Hill
 
Riverton CC / Riverton
 
Spring Lake / Spring Lake
 
Springdale GC / Princeton
 
Hopewell Valley / Hopewell
 
Colonia CC / Colonia
 
Suburban / Union
 
Glen Ridge CC / Glen Ridge
 
Forest Hill Field Club / Bloomfield
 

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

Have been around Hopewell Valley during my tenure at Cherry Valley in Skillman. I remember very tricky greens.

Glen Ridge is a favorite of mine, I believe we both share an affection for the 18th hole.

I'm very curious about Montclair, and hope to check out Riverton and Woodcrest this year.

[JNC Lyon]

Matt,

A bunch of those places look very interesting.  As a Raynor fan, I'm especially interested in Morris County.