[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Phillip!, sorry I am trying to read and type on my phone.

The two properties are about a mile apart and once the new course opened the old one was abandoned to my knowledge. The alumni weekly David cited article refers to 18 holes on a 240 acre property.

[Mike Sweeney]

Really?

Couldn't it just be that the better players wanted to go to a school with a really good course on premises?

I would be curious to know who was the coach before - Walter R. Bourne, 1927-1945.

http://etcweb.princeton.edu/CampusWWW/Companion/golf.html

[Phil_the_Author]

Thank You Malcolm. As I said, it was a stab in the dark...

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Phillip,

Back on my laptop, thank god.

The Canal is to the East not West, sorry. I connects the Delaware River near Trenton with the Raritan River near New Brunswick. Goods were hauled by canal barges drawn by horses and Mules from a tow path alongside, back and forth. In the Early 19th century this was a far more economical way to move goods than roads which were pretty primitive at the time.

The canal does have a few locks but generally remains static and never floods over it's banks.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

I am going to need to head out to the course this weekend and compare the photos from the Golf article dating from 1902 to today and see if I can get a better feel for the locations these photographs were taken from. Some are more easily intuited than others. Thankfully, the Theological seminary buildings are intact today as they were in 1902. Other structures seen in the distance from the photo vantage points are no longer there.

The description of the hole routings seem to differ from today's, especially where swampy areas are described. The 5th, a 420 yard par five, crosses the stream/swamp twice and now we have no hole that fits that profile. I am hoping to get input from some other long time members who will have had the opportunity to also peruse these hole descriptions.

My gut feeling right now is that we most probably had a nine hole course in 1902 that remained a nine holer, despite plans to expand at that time. The University Golf Association originally purchased the old Stockton Farm of 240 acres, developed the nine in 1902 while having plans for 18 but in 1910, eight years later, donated, and then leased back the land from the University which had visions of building a Graduate College on part of the property, Our Club History as posted on the website states that in 1911 Gerard Lambert had the property surveyed and plans were made to enlarge the course to 18 holes. Coincidentally, Princeton constructed their Graduate College on a portion of the Stockton Property which they now owned and it opened in 1913. The new Gerard Lambert 18 hole course is stated on the club website to have opened in 1915.

I think that the old Dunn design was completely rerouted and lost excepting perhaps just a portion of the old ninth in favor of Lambert's new reroute which accommodated the construction of the graduate college. Also at that time, the clubhouse was moved from its original site, a mere 100 yards from the new graduate school to the sight where it currently rests on College Road until the membership was again displaced by the University and built a new clubhouse on the opposite end of the golf course in 2007.

Interestingly, I think that Lambert may have recycled some of the original Dunn design elements in his new course. I have not figured out how to post photos yet but I refer interested parties to an aerial photograph of The Princeton Golf Club/Springdale in a GCA thread from July 13th, 2008 entitled "Unidentified Princeton University Course from 1924" posted by Joe Bausch. This shows in the left of center an alps style cross bunkering array that echo the Dunn Design with mounding that has slots permitting golfers to pass through very much as pictured in the Golf Magazine article of 1902.

Of course all of this predated the Flynn redesign which will be another thread, Stay tuned!

Will report again later after further investigation. I will try and figure out how to get some photos too, especially now before the trees start to show signs of life so we can compare better with the old photos.

[Tom MacWood]

Wilson was on the Princeton GC g/c for a couple of years. During that time he was at the table when much of the planning and construction of the course was discussed and executed. His being chosen for the committee and his participation on it suggests an early interest in golf architecture. He was a bright guy and probably learned a great deal.
 

Bob
When did they begin planning the 18-hole golf course?

[Tom MacWood]

When was James Swan associated with the club?

This from the 1900 Harpers Golf Guide:

Princeton Golf Club - About a quarter mile from Pennsylvania RR station, and accessible by trolley from Trenton. Organised, 1896. Annual dues, Men $10; women $5. Visitors pay 50 cents per day. Membership 125 half of which are students in Princeton University. An eighteen hole course was laid out in the fall of 1899 by Willie Dunn. The distances are: 1. 310; 2. 354; 3. 233; 4. 566; 5. 280; 6. 300; 7. 295; 8. 210; 9. 340; 10. 489; 11. 37=67; 12. 150; 13. 391; 14. 400; 14. 274; 16. 308; 17. 290; 18. 214. Total 5771 yards. Amateur record, 38, by John Stuart; professional record, 38, by James B. Swan. Percy R. Pyne, a member of this club, won the Inter-collegiate championship, at Garden City, in October, 1899. President, M. Taylor Pyne; Vice-President, Prof. Allan Marquand; Secretary, PAV Van Doren, Princeton, NJ; Captain (of university team), Chester Griswold, Jr.; Treasurer, EC Osborn. Governing Committee, M. Taylor Pyne, Allan Marquand, Junius S. Morgan,Geo A. Armour, Cleveland H Dodge, PAV Van Doren, Percy R. Pyne, HD Thompson, CFW McClure, AF West, and WA Wykoff. Greenkeeper, James Glass.

[Mike Cirba]

What was the Greens Committee doing going around the property with Dunn and Swan?

I thought Greens Committees had no interest in architectural matters at all and were simply there to grow grass and dig dirt??

Bad, Greens Committee...Bad!!    


Malcolm,

Your gut feeling about the other nine holes never being completed is probably on the mark, but perhaps contrary evidence will surface.

I'm glad we're getting some good information for you.

[Phil_the_Author]

Malcolm and Mike,

I believe that the 1900 Harpers Golf Guide that was posted proves that the second nine wasn't built yet. Even though it states that 18 holes were laid out and gives the length of each and total yardage for the 18, the course records listed are either for 9 holes or are the two greatest 18-hole scores ever recorded!

[Kyle Harris]

I believe that the 1900 Harpers Golf Guide that was posted proves that the second nine wasn't built yet.

The only thing the 1900 Harpers Golf Guide proves is that in 1900 the Harpers Golf Guide wrote the second nine wasn't built yet.

From that, we can use other data and context to infer that it wasn't built.

Am I nitpicking? YES. But these syntax issues are critical in my opinion.

[Phil_the_Author]

Kyle,

"The only thing the 1900 Harpers Golf Guide proves is that in 1900 the Harpers Golf Guide wrote the second nine wasn't built yet."

"Quote from: Philip Young on Today at 10:51:46 PM 'I believe that the 1900 Harpers Golf Guide that was posted proves that the second nine wasn't built yet.'"

Isn't that exactly what i said?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

"The only thing the 1900 Harpers Golf Guide proves is that in 1900 the Harpers Golf Guide wrote the second nine wasn't built yet."

"Quote from: Philip Young on Today at 10:51:46 PM 'I believe that the 1900 Harpers Golf Guide that was posted proves that the second nine wasn't built yet.'"

Isn't that exactly what i said?

No.

The Harpers Guide proved nothing about the golf course. It only proved that the Harpers Guide printed something. Anything believed from this report is inference.

If we take the image I posted. The analogue to your statement would be that the Chicago Daily Tribune proved Dewey defeated Truman - which any number of other context cases would show to not be fact. However, it is a fact that the Chicago Daily Tribune printed that Dewey defeated Truman.

I know I'm nitpicking and I know it's annoying, but I really feel that these little syntax errors are what starts threads off track.

[Phil_the_Author]

Hitpicker is just another word for Joe Pa' fan...

[Kyle Harris]

Hitpicker is just another word for Joe Pa' fan...

Can't argue with that one. One bit.

[DMoriarty]

Relying on the 1900 Harper Golf Guide to draw conclusions about whether the full eighteen was built is dubious at best considering that, reportedly, no part of the new 18 hole course was ready for play in 1900. 

I believe guide may have listed the yardages for the 18 hole course that had been planned and was being built, but the course records from the old leased course. 

Asides-

According to one 1912 article, the captain of the golf team was automatically part of the green committee.

Wilson was not captain of the golf team his junior year.  He was captain  for 1901 - 1902. 

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Here is the Aerial Photo which I mentioned. This was taken prior to the Flynn renovations.

The more I Think about it the long cross bunker with the mound and cuts for golfers to pass through is probably the original bunker in the photo entitled "bunker on fourth hole" from the 1902 Golf article.

[Joe Bausch]

I have many early Princeton golf articles.  Busy this morning but I'll try to post them this afternoon.  Stay tuned. 

[Kyle Harris]

Dumb question. Has the exact tenure of Wilson's green committee stint been realized? When did they elect or admit new members? Concurrent with the calender year, academic year, or golf year?

[Joe Bausch]

Articles concerning golf at Princeton from the school newspaper, presented in chronological order:

Oct 2, 1895:



Dec 6, 1895:



May 14, 1896:



May 21, 1897:



Sept 30, 1897:



Oct 13, 1897:



Oct 14, 1897:



Nov 11, 1897:



Nov 17, 1897:



Nov 18, 1897:



Jan 7, 1898:



Oct 6, 1898:



Oct 8, 1898:



Oct 12, 1898:



Oct 25, 1898:



Nov 9, 1898:



Apr 20, 1899:



Sept 25, 1899:



Oct 5, 1899:



Oct 13, 1899:



Nov 1, 1899:



Nov 2, 1899:



Nov 6, 1899:



Nov 15, 1899:



Nov 16, 1899:



Nov 16, 1899:



Nov 18, 1899:



Nov 22, 1899:



Nov 23, 1899:



Nov 29, 1899:




Dec 6, 1899:



Dec 7, 1899:



Jan 16, 1900:



Mar 23, 1900:



May 1, 1900:

[Joe Bausch]

Oh, there are many more to be posted later, probably tomorrow. 

[Mike Cirba]

Joe,

Terrific stuff...

Thanks for leaving us hanging!! 

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Joe,

A very nice chronology, I look forward to the rest.

It seems we have settled a few issues.

1. Willie Dunn unquestionably routed and staked the new golf course located on the Stockton Farm "Springdale" and it was a full 18 holes at the time.

2. Mike Cirba is correct! Dunn was working hand in hand on a consulting basis with the greens committee.

3. Hugh Wilson was still a Sophomore and was not on the greens committee when the routing and rerouting was done. Yet, he was a core member of the Princeton Golf team since freshman year.

Other things I take away from reading the items in the press at that time...

1895- At the Old Stockton Woods Course golf was a novelty and was being promoted among the collegiate at Princeton. As of yet there was no competitive golf among the Ivies, yet, it was "hoped that Princeton men will take an early and lively interest in the game". The newly opened golf course was touted as having "exceptional advantages in the way of natural hazards", and... TAKE NOTE GCA'ERS WHO PARTICIPATED IN OUR FEBRUARY GET TOGETHER AT SEAVIEW AND PEOPLE THINK YOU WERE NUTS, the new links were "being played over through far the greater part of last winter and spring. They thus furnished means of agreeable exercise at a season when out-of-door sport is at a premium in Princeton"

1897- Golf course maintenance is starting to get serious. Greens are closed and top-dressed in the fall. Winter play is limited to temporary greens. In the Spring the ground is broken and seeded with english  (not american) grass seed.

1898- Princeton Golf Club joins the USGA!, along with seven other clubs. Now 103 total club members of the USGA which is more than five times what the membership was a year earlier. (20 total in 1897?)

Also in 1898, Intercollegiate golf is starting to get off the ground. Matches at Ardsley (Another Willie Dunn Jr.) between Princeton, Harvard, Yale and Columbia.

1899- The new links in Princeton are coming!, "within easy reach of the University and townspeople". A surveyor is hired to create a topographic map in order to "AID THE GREENS COMMITTEE"  in laying out the course with the assistance of Willie Dunn. By November 18th the survey is complete and the course is staked out.

The press is smitten, it can be "safely said that the course will be one of the longest and, if properly put in shape, one of the best in the country"

In late November plowing, draining and grading are proceeding at full speed. Hopes are that the course can be seeded in the Spring and open in September.

By December the head professional, Swann, is visiting Garden City for ideas on bunkering, greens keeping, etc.

1900- Money is short and the University Golf Association is considering renewing their lease on the old "Stockton Woods" for one more year. Work has come to a standstill. Yet, by May, work recommences.

What an interesting period as America is just discovering Golf and they are damn exited about it!

[Mike Cirba]

Malcolm,

All very exciting stuff and a nice synopsis to date.

I'm thrilled we've been able to make this thread so useful to you and the club.

[Tom MacWood]

Thanks to Joe and Malcolm for clearing up the questions surrounding the development of the course and presenting it in such a clear and concise manner.

[Joe Bausch]

More articles:

Jan 10, 1901:



Mar 13, 1902:



Mar 25, 1902:



Mar 7, 1903:



Mar 16, 1903:



Mar 23, 1903:



Mar 22, 1906:



May 7, 1907:



May 9, 1907:



May 10, 1907:



May 13, 1907:



Sept 22, 1911:



Oct 4, 1911:



Oct 14, 1911:



Oct 20, 1911:



Oct 8, 1912:



Dec 7, 1912:



Oct 9, 1914:




Oct 16, 1914:




Oct 18, 1915:



Apr 25, 1917:



Feb 25, 1920:

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