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Mike Cirba

Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« on: February 21, 2011, 12:02:29 PM »
Meeting a new friend with an interest in the history of Springdale GC in Princeton, NJ yesterday, I thought I'd lay out here the progression of the first nine holes on the site of the present course.

Today's course is generally acknowledged to be a significant William Flynn revision of an 18-hole course designed by Gerald Lambert around 1914.

Prior to then, the land of the today's course was secured in August 1899 and after a visit from Willie Dunn in November of that year, an eighteen hole course was planned and the land was purchased outright in December 1899.

The following article talks about the coming course, as well as some modifications by professional James Swann to Dunn's design plans;




By March 1901, the course was still being constructed, and this article mentions that the hope is that it can open in June. 





By February 1902, it seems there has been some play on the new course, which is still only nine holes, but which would open formally in March of that year.



Mike Cirba

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2011, 12:39:36 PM »
Kelly,

It's a private club, but I haven't played it yet and am hoping others here may weigh in.

My sense of the course that's there today is that it's a heavy 1920s Flynn re-do of an original course by Lambert.

They do have a website with some basic information and a pic or two... www.springdalegc.com

Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2011, 01:43:02 PM »
Mike,

Thanks! Let me know when you will be available to come and see the course firsthand.

So it appears that Willie Dunn Jr. designed an 18 hole course from the outset and that while 9 holes opened in 1902 the plans were already in place to expand the course to 18 holes per Dunn's original survey of the property.

Hugh Wilson's participation in the development of Princeton Golf Club must have been the seminal moment in his career.




Mike Cirba

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2011, 02:00:40 PM »
Malcolm,

On July 27, 1914 it was reported;

Gerard B. Lambert, who is at his
summer cottage on Long Island, has
been here in connection with the laying
out of the new eighteen-hole
course of the Princeton Golf Club of
which he is president. Work is now
well advanced on the new holes on the
southern aide of the course.


I'm trying to figure out if it was a nine or 18 hole course prior to then.

Mike Cirba

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2011, 02:08:16 PM »
Malcolm,

On May 18, 1901 it was reported;

Princeton Golf Club -
The golf season of the Princeton Unlverslty
Club is concluded with the exception
of the opening of the new golf links
On Monday, June 3, there will be a three
ball handicap tournament at eighteen
holes of medal play to mark the opening
of the new course. All members of 'the
golf club can enter this toumament
Work on the new Lamar club house
which is to be the class of 1886 memorial
gift to the university, will be commenced
during the coming week.

On July 27, 1914 it was reported;

Gerard B. Lambert, who is at his
summer cottage on Long Island, has
been here in connection with the laying
out of the new eighteen-hole
course of the Princeton Golf Club of
which he is president. Work isnow
well advanced on the new holes on the
southern aide of the course.


I'm trying to figure out if it was a nine or 18 hole course between 1901 and 1914..

Tom MacWood

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2011, 02:10:36 PM »
Mike,

Thanks! Let me know when you will be available to come and see the course firsthand.

So it appears that Willie Dunn Jr. designed an 18 hole course from the outset and that while 9 holes opened in 1902 the plans were already in place to expand the course to 18 holes per Dunn's original survey of the property.

Hugh Wilson's participation in the development of Princeton Golf Club must have been the seminal moment in his career.


Malcolm
How did Wilson participate in the development of the course?

Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2011, 02:18:11 PM »
Tom,

Hugh Wilson served on the Greens Committee while the course was under development. He was a student at Princeton at that time and a member of the golf team.

Mike Cirba

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2011, 02:44:07 PM »
Malcolm,

In 1907 Jerome Travers won the first Invitational tournament held at Princeton.

The course was still nine holes, and was termed exceptionally long at 3255 yards.


btw...because of his modest and self-effacing comments, some folks here would have us believe that Wilson was simply an ignorant insurance salesman.   No amount of evidence to the contrary will suffice, trust me.

BCrosby

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2011, 04:40:16 PM »
Mike -

I did not know that Hugh Wilson was named to the Green Committee his junior year at Princeton. And at a time when the planning and construction of the Princeton course had just begun. Did he also serve on the committee his senior year?

Is it possible that his interest in golf course architecture dated back to that time? Is it also possible in the years that followed he kept up his interest in golf architecture? Might he have read books and magazines on the subject? Early on, might he have obtained a good understanding of the "Best Holes" then being widely written about and discussed?

Would he have met and talked with young men approximately his age who also played for Ivy League teams and who also had an interest in golf architecture? Young men like William Langford? Chandler Egan? Max Behr? Sounds like Wilson played in some tournaments in the NE for a time. Might he have crossed paths with Leeds, MacDonald, Tillinghast, Travis and others? Might they have talked about their mutual interest in golf architecture?

Or is all that just loopy speculation?

Bob

   

Mike Cirba

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2011, 05:00:57 PM »
Mike -

I did not know that Hugh Wilson was named to the Green Committee his junior year at Princeton. And at a time when the planning and construction of the Princeton course had just begun. Did he also serve on the committee his senior year?

Bob, I wasn't aware that it was his Junior year in March 1901 either until I went back this morning to find the original article.  As you know, he graduated in June of 1902, and I would imagine he'd have stayed on the committee as the course was opening that spring.   The course was originally planned in November 1899, but money was tight, construction was slow, and they had another course to play on in the meantime.

Is it possible that his interest in golf course architecture dated back to that time? Is it also possible in the years that followed he kept up his interest in golf architecture? Might he have read books and magazines on the subject? Early on, might he have obtained a good understanding of the "Best Holes" then being widely written about and discussed?

It's certainly possible, Bob, although we have no way of knowing.   He was certainly a keen, interested student and a really good player in his earliest days.   However, I think it's more likely that he was more interested in playing well competitively than contemplating amateur golf course architecture, at least at this point.

Would he have met and talked with young men approximately his age who also played for Ivy League teams and who also had an interest in golf architecture? Young men like William Langford? Chandler Egan? Max Behr? Sounds like Wilson played in some tournaments in the NE for a time. Might he have crossed paths with Leeds, MacDonald, Tillinghast, Travis and others? Might they have talked about their mutual interest in golf architecture?

That is more likely, Bob.   We know he played city matches for Philadelphia that involved Macdonald, Travis, and Emmet.[/img]

Or is all that just loopy speculation?

Depends who you ask!  ;)  ;=
Bob

   
[/quote]

BCrosby

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2011, 05:24:17 PM »
"However, I think it's more likely that he was more interested in playing well competitively than contemplating amateur golf course architecture, at least at this point."

To state the obvious, it is possible to play first class competitive golf and also be interested in golf architecture. There are not so few hours in a day that you can't pursue both interests. Wilson's history suggests that he was one of the many people who did so.

Bob 

Dave Givnish

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2011, 05:33:46 PM »
The Pyne family were major benefactors of Princeton.  Percy won the collegiate championship.  Here's an article from the Harvard Crimson:

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1899/10/30/princeton-wins-golf-ppercy-r-pyne/?print=1

Here's a piece from the Springdale web site http://www.springdalegc.com/course_history.cfm

The course was re-routed a few years ago when they moved the clubhouse.  The University needed the space and it appears that they converted the old clubhouse to offices for the Dining Services.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2011, 06:02:06 PM »
Malcolm
Maybe I missed something but I don't see any evidence of Wilson's involvement in the development of the golf course. Where did you read that? If he was on the green committee I believe it is more likely his experience at Princeton fostered his interest in maintenance, not golf architecture. His interest in golf architecture came later, much later.

Mike Cirba

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2011, 07:18:46 PM »
Tom,

Yes, you missed something.

Why pretend you actually know when Hugh Wilson became interested in golf course architecture or when he became interested in anything else for that matter?   You have no idea at all and yet pretend to speak authoritatively on the matter;  why is that?

By 1901/02, before he was 21, Wilson was the best player at his club by eight shots, had won the club championship, was elected to the Green Committee at Princeton during which time the club opened its new course 14 months after joining the committee, and captained the Princeton team back when Ivy League golf was a big deal.

So why do you pretend to know when he developed an interest in architecture?   Because he made a few self-effacing statements about he and his committee having the knowledge of "average club members"?

Some average club members...

Did you know Rodman Griscom's Green Committee designed the second nine holes of the original Merion course or the Dr. Toulmin was one of three men to design Belmont (the forerunner to Aronimink)?

Did you know that HG Lloyd was on Merion's Green Committee from at least 1903 and Griscom was head of the green committee from the inception of golf at the club in 1896 and the building of their first course through the creation of the 18 hole course in 1901 and beyond?

Just an average bunch of guys...
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 07:53:16 PM by MCirba »

Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2011, 07:19:44 PM »
Tom,

Purely speculation on my part.

If only we could somehow access the minutes from meetings of the greens committee at that time. However, certainly Wilson was present and at the bare minimum an interested observer in the creation of a golf course which would become the "home field" for an athletic team which he was to captain. It stands to reason that he would have been paying attention to what was going on and, perhaps, learned something from the process.

A disclaimer, I am not an expert on Wilson. I approached Mike C. as a seeker of information regarding the origins my home course looking to confirm Dunn's involvement which I had read elsewhere here.

Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2011, 08:27:01 PM »
Mike,

Sorry, I had not responded earlier regarding the tidbit regarding Jerome Travers. Quite interesting and another piece of lore the Springdale membership should know about.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2011, 08:49:44 PM »
Mike
I don't see any evidence of Wilson's involvement in the development of the golf course....where did you read that?

Which came first Wilson's interest in maintenance or golf architecture?

BCrosby

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2011, 10:45:21 PM »
Tom -

How many green committees have you served on?

To suggest that g/c's only deal with maintenance issues and that, therefore, Wilson must have only dealt with maintenance issues at Princeton is not terribly persuasive.

I have served on a couple of g/c's and am currently chairman of one. Over the years we have dealt with all sorts of issues. Some are maintenance, some are about the architecture and some are a mixture of both. 

That mixture tends towards the architectural if your course is going through revisions. You work hand in hand with the architect, his plans and the contractors. Our g/c helped shape and implement the details of the architect's revisions. I suspect that is pretty typical. And along the way it's amazing what you learn about how architects practice their craft.

I would guess that the architectural aspect of a g/c's work would only be increased on a course still under construction, as was case at Princeton. 

Bob

 

DMoriarty

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2011, 02:15:46 AM »
Again with the mystery/fantasy about Hugh Wilson's knowledge and interest in laying out and building golf courses?  Wilson squarely addressed the issue in 1916 Chapter on the creation of the Merion golf courses:

The members of the committee had played golf for many years, but the experience of each in con- struction and greenkeeping was only that of the average club member. Looking back on the work, I feel certain that we would never have attempted to carry it out, if we had realized one-half the things we did not know. Our ideals were high and fortunately we did get a good start in the correct principles of laying out the holes, through the kindness of Messrs. C. B. Macdonald and H. J. Whigham. We spent two days with Mr. Macdonald at his bungalow near the National Course and in one night absorbed more ideas on golf course construction than we had learned in all the years we had played.

Seems pretty clear to me.

As for what might have happened at Princeton, my understanding is that the Princeton Golf Club wasn't run by the University, the golf team, or the student body, but by a group of alums including the Pyne family, I think, and some others whose names I cannot remember offhand.    If I had to wager as to who was responsible for decisions relating to the creation of the course, I'd go with these guys.   

Bob Crosby,

Do you think that your experience on various green committees is really comparable to Hugh Wilson's experience as a college junior on Princeton's Golf Club's green committee in 1901? I would think we'd have to know a bit more about how the club and committee was set up before we could start speculating about what Wilson might have done or not done

Here are a few photos of the course around the time Wilson was there.







I have the entire article (with a few more photos) somewhere, but can't find it right now.  I will try to find it and post it when I get a chance.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2011, 06:15:40 AM »
Bob
I have not served on any green committee, but I've been around a lot green committee members and most don't know crap about golf architecture. I've always been under the impression their primary focus is maintenance. What have you found?

In this case we are talking 1901, I suspect they knew ever less about golf architecture and what constituted good golf architecture at the turn of the century. These were the very formative years of golf in this country.

I've also seen plenty of situations when students have temporarily been placed on all sorts of university committees and their involvement is usually ceremonial. I think you are letting your imagination get the best of you.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 06:20:01 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2011, 06:45:16 AM »
Malcolm/Bob,

What Tom and David will conveniently neglect to tell you is that during the late 1890s, and for most of the next fifteen or so years, most of the Green Committees around Philadelphia were VERY involved in the architecture of their golf courses, and by far the exceptions were those courses done by professional golfers, up through WWI..

I could provide example after example, and will do so if anyone feels it's necessary but let's just start with Merion.

Merion had a 9-hole Willie Campbell designed course open in 1896, but as golf grew more popular at the club, by late 1899 it was determined that 18 was needed and Rodman Griscom's father's farm was utilized for an 18-hole course that opened in 1901.

About 7 of Campbell's original holes were incorporated into the new 18 hole course that was designed and constructed by Rodman Griscom and his Green Committee...the same Rodman Griscom who was on Hugh Wilson's committee in 1911.   H.G. Lloyd was on the same Green committee in 1903 although I'm trying to determine if he was there in around 1900/01.

We also know that Dr. Harry Toulmin was one of three men who designed the Belmont Golf Club course, which was the forerunner to Aronimink.

While we don't know what Wilson learned or didn't at Princeton, we know he was there on the committee for about 15 months which included the period through final construction, grow-in, and course opening.

The fifth, Richard Francis, tells us he was added because of his surveying and engineering skills.

The five men on the committee were also five of the six best golfers of the hundreds of golfing members of the club.   THe sixth, Howard Perrin, was relatively new to the club at the time, so these men were considered the club's "experts", and clearly were.

So this humble statement of gratitude from Wilson is indeed what it is...meant to thank Macdonald and Whigham for their help and acknowledge their expertise.  

It is also very important to note that the article David quoted Hugh Wilson from was an article intended to be about agronomy and course construction.   Piper and Oakley had asked Wilson to write a chapter for them on Merion's agronomy, so that his the subject and what Wilson is referring to, not architecture.   You'll notice Wilson's humble statement indeed says, "the experience of each in construction and greenkeeping...", although even in that regard they were clearly each well beyond "the average club member".

Among the things Merion was most grateful to Macdonald and Whigham about was their helpful advice that they send some soil samples to Piper and Oakley early on, which struck up a long-running relationship and became the start of the USGA Agronomy Section.




David,

Thanks for sharing those early pictures of Princeton here.

« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 07:26:23 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2011, 09:20:28 AM »
This from the 1901 Harpers Golf Guide:

Princeton Golf Club - About a quarter mile from Pennsylvania RR station, and accessible by trolley from Trenton. Organised, 1896. Annual dues, $15. Memebership 125. The club hopes to have a good eighteen-hole course of about 5800 yards in order in 1901. President, M. Taylor Pyne; Vice-President, Allan Marquand; Secretary, PAV Van Doren, Princeton; Captain, C. Griswold, Jr.; Treasurer, EC Osborn. Governing Committee, President, Vice-President, and George A. Armour, JS Morgan, CFW McClure, HD Thompson, CH Dodge, WA Wykoff, AF West, Lawrence Hutton, AD Russell, and CC Cuyler. Greenkeeper, James Glass.

Mike Cirba

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2011, 09:28:40 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for the 1901 info on Princeton.

As you know, that book was compiled and published in early 1901 and does not list the members of the Green Committee.   Hugh Wilson was appointed to the Green Committee during his junior year in March of 1901, and became Captain of the golf team for his senior year in 1902.

BCrosby

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Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2011, 09:30:28 AM »
Tom -

It's always such a delight discussing things with you. Especially so when you tell me (1) that you have no experience of the matter at hand (serving on a green committee) and (2) then telling me about my experiences that:

"I think you are letting your imagination get the best of you."

For me at least, you have forfeited your right to be taken seriously on this topic.

David -

I don't know what Wilson learned or didn't learn about golf architecture while on the g/c at Princeton. But then you don't either.

But whatever the structure of the Princeton g/c might have been, it is inconceivable that the architecture of the new Princeton course wasn't discussed often and in great detail during Wilson's tenure. Those conversations would have also natually spilled over onto larger architectural issues of the day. Indeed, it would be quite odd if they hadn't.

All of which leads me to what I think is a non-controversial conclusion. Starting at least as early as his college days at Princeton Hugh Wilson was exposed to architectural issues in a pretty serious way. I would go on to note that, given the players he met in college and in amateur tournaments afterwards and given the architectural issues then in the air, there is no reason to suppose he didn't continue to discuss and deepen his interest in golf  architecture after Princeton.

Bob
 
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 09:35:33 AM by BCrosby »

Kyle Harris

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2011, 09:47:15 AM »


But whatever the structure of the Princeton g/c might have been, it is inconceivable that the architecture of the new Princeton course wasn't discussed often and in great detail during Wilson's tenure. Those conversations would have also natually spilled over onto larger architectural issues of the day. Indeed, it would be quite odd if they hadn't.


With respect to this statement, I fear that many of us do not have the context of golf matters in 1901 to understand why it is inconceivable?

Why is it so odd?