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Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2011, 02:46:53 PM »
David,

This is simply outstanding information. My sincerest thanks.

It may take me some time to digest and see if I can place the description of the first nine hole routing in my mind.

I am hoping to get some of our "old guard" to read these posts and comment accordingly.

Will check back in later...
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Mike Cirba

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2011, 02:48:40 PM »
May 10, 1907


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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2011, 02:52:27 PM »
Mike,

Any chance that "9 hole affair" was the result of an accomodation due to half the holes being flooded?
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Kyle Harris

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2011, 02:59:22 PM »
Quote from: Jim Sullivan on February 22, 2011, 02:52:27 PM
Mike,

Any chance that "9 hole affair" was the result of an accomodation due to half the holes being flooded?

That's what I was wondering, myself.
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Mike Cirba

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2011, 03:13:39 PM »
Jim/Kyle,

I'm not sure that wouldn't be referenced in the article had nine holes been underwater and unable to be played.   I'm thinking the language, "a nine-hole affair", indicates permanence, not a temporary state.

This was, afterall, the first Invitational Tournament held at Princeton.   I could be wrong, but...
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #55 on: February 22, 2011, 03:19:50 PM »
"Half under water"...with HALF being the operative word for these purposes...

Mike, seriously, in the context of David's article immediately above, don't you think this is pretty logical?
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Kyle Harris

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2011, 03:21:30 PM »
We also shouldn't necessarily assume the reporter knew much or anything about the finer points of golf. The details we are looking for may not have been the details the reporter saw or cared to report.
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Mike Cirba

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2011, 03:42:45 PM »
Jim/Kyle,

You may be right.

I can only tell you I've seen no references indicating the second nine ever actually opened for play.

It may very well have.
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2011, 03:50:31 PM »
Mike,

I may be out of my depth here, but the first paragraph of David's article in post #42 says as of January 1902 Princeton had a full 18 hole course that was standard in every particular. Where is it stated that the second nine was not actually built?
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mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2011, 03:51:46 PM »
 That article seems clearly to be speaking of a nine hole course since it speaks to the doubling of the nine hole yardage. Isn't "half the holes" used as an approximation commonly? Is it possible that both Moriarty and Cirba are correct?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 03:54:24 PM by mike_malone »
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AKA Mayday

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2011, 03:56:53 PM »
Quote from: mike_malone on February 22, 2011, 03:51:46 PM

Is it possible that both Moriarty and Cirba are correct?



Sure...just get either of them to admit it...
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Kyle Harris

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2011, 04:00:48 PM »
Quote from: mike_malone on February 22, 2011, 03:51:46 PM
That article seems clearly to be speaking of a nine hole course since it speaks to the doubling of the nine hole yardage. Isn't "half the holes" used as an approximation commonly? Is it possible that both Moriarty and Cirba are correct?

The sun rose this morning, but it has yet to set. ;)

I did see a cat and a dog playing happily together outside my window earlier though.
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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2011, 04:33:09 PM »
The course was nine holes in 1907 at that tournament.   I am just curious as to what happened to the other other 9 holes.   Also, while they probably were the same, I am not entirely certain that the 9 holes in 1907 were the same nine holes as in 1902. 
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2011, 04:37:00 PM »
David,

Why do you say that so definitively? What am I missing? Because it sure is something...
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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2011, 04:45:32 PM »
Jim, 

Because I have seen other accounts about the tournament. I don't have time to copy and post them and I want to look into it a bit further because those same articles raise other questions. 

For example one report was that that the tournament would take place over the "new links" and that the course was nine holes and "has been well laid out."   This raises the possibility (at least) that something else was going on.
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2011, 04:48:43 PM »
Fair enough...we'd hate for anything to be cut and dried...
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Mike Cirba

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2011, 05:08:24 PM »
If it was eighteen holes that is more than ok with me.
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2011, 05:44:12 PM »
Is there any possibility that there are several golf clubs/courses that are being mixed up here? I ask this because after following the entire thread from the beginning one of the points that all seem to agree upon is that the golf course of the Princeton Golf Club opened for play in 1902. If that is the cae, then how can one explain this article taken from the New York Daily Leader in 1896?:



It clearly references the new home just purhcased by President Cleveland to be located where "To the north are the links of the Princeton Golf Club, stretching away to the Rocky Hill Ridge, five miles distant..."

This seems to be stating that there was a Princeton Golf Club course at least as far back as 1896...
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2011, 06:08:04 PM »
This is from the New York Ledger of 11.16.1899:



There are a number of other articles that I've come across that describe this land as being "along the canal" which would more than explain the flooding in the tournament, the gift of the property to the University in 1904 and others detailing tournament results and much more. I have yet to find anything that details what happened to the original course...
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Mike Sweeney

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2011, 06:23:02 PM »
Quote from: MCirba on February 21, 2011, 12:02:29 PM


Today's course is generally acknowledged to be a significant William Flynn revision of an 18-hole course designed by Gerald Lambert around 1914.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Division_I_Men%27s_Golf_Championships

Interesting timing as Princeton won its first NCAA in 1914. With Yale as a close second, Princeton was the dominant team from 1914 to 1940. It would be interesting to understand who drove this golf focus at Princeton as it was probably NOT a coincidence.
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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2011, 06:34:29 PM »
Same club different course, I think.  The old course was reportedly on leased land; in 1900 there were financial difficulties associated with finishing the new course and the club was contemplating again  leasing the old nine for one year with an option for more.   Reportedly they overcame the financial difficulties a few months later, but it sounds like they may have continued to lease the old course for at least a while.

Mike Sweeney, what was probably not a coincidence?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 06:38:40 PM by DMoriarty »
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Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Sweeney

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2011, 06:44:25 PM »
Quote from: DMoriarty on February 22, 2011, 06:34:29 PM


Mike Sweeney, what was probably not a coincidence?

The (re) opening of the course in 1914 and the start of Princeton's dominance in golf in 1914. My guess is a group of alumni got the program and funded the course and team (recruiting, coaches .....).
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JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2011, 07:36:34 PM »
Really?

Couldn't it just be that the better players wanted to go to a school with a really good course on premises?
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Phil_the_Author

Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2011, 08:01:51 PM »
David,

I understand that it was a prior course. My point was that no one had even mentioned this 9-hole course and it might explain the supposed discrepancies in the 9/18 hole argument that you guys are having.

I am wondering just how close it was to the "new course" especially as there seems to have been a correlation between both courses and the President's new home. The new course was included in the 1904 gift to the University along with the the President's home.

The question as to how close it was to the new one is reasonable when one set of articles speak of 18 new holes to be built, another that only 9 were, another that mentions 18 used in a tournament and even your statement that there were only 9 holes to the course in 1907. I am wondering, and it is pure conjecture yet would certainly explain away all of the supposed contradictions, if the second nine wasn't built as originally planned because they still had access to the original nine holes, thus making an 18-hole course. It would certainly explain how in 1907 the course only had 9-holes, especially if the land was now no longer being leased. It would also explain why they waited to build all 18...
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Malcolm Mckinnon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Princeton/Springdale Early Golf course evolution
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2011, 08:04:15 PM »
Mike,

The golf course you hear described in the story about the Grover Cleveland house is the one that was abandoned upon creating the new course opening in 1902 on the Stockton farm property. The article that David posted refers to it and the problems with play through the green due to cows and their hoof marks on the turf.

The Delaware and Raritan canal which you refer to is at least a quarter mile to the West of the current golf property. It was built with predominantly Irish labor in the early 1800's as a commercial conduit to move goods between Philadelphia and New York City. The flooding you read about had to occur on the creek that still flows through the property to this day.

I would expect that I'd you google mapped present day Springdale Golf club you would see the present day pond and creek as well as the canal.

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