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John Kavanaugh

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Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2011, 10:54:03 PM »
Nice, pick a site 40 miles from New York City to use in case of a terrorist attack. Who is the rube here?

Adam Clayman

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Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2011, 11:42:02 PM »
Pebble has always told them they only need two weeks notice to be the back up.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Chris Buie

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Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2011, 11:45:43 PM »
I would imagine Oakmont could do it.  It would take them only a few days to slow down their greens enough for the U.S. Open.

Jim Colton

Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2011, 11:46:53 PM »
Is this just a way for courses to brag about how tough they can make it? I recall hearing this same 'we get it ready during the U.S. Open week just in case' statement at three or four different places in the last year.

Sam Morrow

Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2011, 11:50:04 PM »
Does he build tents and stands just in case? If not it seems like he is wasting his time, afterall they owe it to the USGA.

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2011, 05:52:53 AM »
I would imagine Oakmont could do it.  It would take them only a few days to slow down their greens enough for the U.S. Open.
All Oakmont would have to do is put up ropes and tents. It's THAT close to US Open set up everyday...
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Phil_the_Author

Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2011, 07:02:10 AM »
Interesting timing on this... just a few days after they stated that they won't be going back to Bethpage for a long time...

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2011, 09:52:06 AM »
I must have missed something regarding the USGA and Bethpage but based on some comments I read on Geoff Shackelford's site, it appears that there has been some parting of ways.  What is the word?

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2011, 10:09:38 AM »
Not sure about any Bethpage issues, but a course like Trump makes perfect sense. Considering the circumstances that would cause thos move, the difficulty of the golf course would be about 50th on the priority list for getting it done.

Ron Csigo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2011, 10:16:58 AM »
I must have missed something regarding the USGA and Bethpage but based on some comments I read on Geoff Shackelford's site, it appears that there has been some parting of ways.  What is the word?

Rory - I heard that it had something to do with the local authorities from the municipality.  Since BB is a municipal course, the USGA needs approval from the local officials. 
Playing and Admiring the Great Golf Courses of the World.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2011, 10:22:31 AM »
Brad,

That's a smart tactical move on Donald's part.
And, it's a smart move on the USGA's part.

There's nothing wrong with having solid contingency plans in place.

I never thought he'd get an Open in the normal course of events, but, I've learned not to underestimate him.

JakaB,

Evidently, you've never been to Bedminster.

Trump could get the faciliites ready in a heartbeat.

Oakmont couldn't and neither could any member owned course.

You fellows are so anti-Trump that you'd rather see a U.S. Open postponed or not played rather than have it played on time, on schedule at his Bedminster course.

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2011, 10:34:09 AM »
It seems the issue is the ability to erect the infrastructure and arrange parking etc., at the drop of a hat. Course prep is secondary in this kind of situation.  Its smart to have a plan and for the contingency course to be in New Jersey where the USGA can work to develop a coherent plan with the local municipalities without incurring all of the additional expenses that would be incurred in an effort to set this up in a location further from HQ.  I am participating in preparation for an event smaller in scale than the US Open and we rarely ever talk about the golf course itself during our meetings. Its almost all infrastructure and logistics.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2011, 10:36:27 AM »
. . . You fellows are so anti-Trump that you'd rather see a U.S. Open postponed or not played rather than have it played on time, on schedule at his Bedminster course.

Admittedly I'm in that camp.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 11:35:16 AM by Carl Johnson »

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2011, 10:48:04 AM »
I would imagine Oakmont could do it.  It would take them only a few days to slow down their greens enough for the U.S. Open.
All Oakmont would have to do is put up ropes and tents. It's THAT close to US Open set up everyday...

Butler National here in Chicago could surely do the same.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2011, 10:54:17 AM »
Brad,

Thanks for the link.  I really like the (Old ) golf course at Bedminster and the setting. I also found the greens fun to play. I think it would be great to introduce an occasional  "newcomer" on the Open scene.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2011, 10:54:27 AM »
Ron,

"Rory - I heard that it had something to do with the local authorities from the municipality.  Since BB is a municipal course, the USGA needs approval from the local officials."  

It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any "local officials" whatsoever. Bethpage offered them the course for another Open immediately following the 2009 Open. The USGA never got back to them, even not returning phone calls directly made to David Fay. Since the "powers that be" at Bethpage and the State want very much to see the course being used on a major level, after being "snubbed" (their words not mine) by the USGA they entertained offers from the Barclay's who would like to include it in a three-course rotation with Ridgewood and Plainfield. Because of that, and because the PGA has had talks with Bethpage regarding the possibility of hosting the 2020/21 PGA & 2028 Ryder Cup there, The USGA is no longer considering using them for "quite a while."

It is my opinion that the politics for this mess began when Bethpage turned down the USGA's offer of the 2012 U.S. Amateur. They did this because they couldn't justify the losses to the State bean counters. The downward relationship spiral began then. Still until something is signed with Barclay's or the PGA there is hope that reason may prevail. Bethpage would love to host more U.S. Opens. There are some within the USGA who are are working beghind the scenes to try and heal the rift as well as some outside of Bethpage.

The biggest danger is the horrible New York State budget crisis. There have been drastic operating cuts at Bethpage, 25% in maintenance and reductions in manpower such as losing 7 full-time employees who worked solely on the Black. There is a REAL fear that the incredible condition that the course has been maintained in will begin to suffer. One person who is very invovled said to me that his biggest fear is that the course could easily return to near the condition it was in prior to the 2002 Open if they don't put back the maintenance monies. They have been assured that if a contract for an event such as the 2012 Barclay's or a future U.S. Open was signed that the justification for returning the maintenance monies would be there...

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2011, 10:55:58 AM »
In a bizarre way, I almost wish the US Open would be forced to go to a less prepared course, if only to show the USGA it isn't necessary to modify a course to host the Open.

Oakmont wouldn't have any problems from a golf perspective, can't speak to the logistical stuff. I'd imagine #2 wouldn't need a whole lot of work to prepare.

Perhaps a superintendent could speak to the difficulties associated with putting on a big time event and enlighten us.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2011, 11:08:13 AM »
Phil,

I wonder if all of those renovations to get Bethpage-Black ready for two U.S. Opens had anything to do with making the golf course more expensive to maintain -- handwork around bunkers, steep slopes, etc.? And have they managed to address the drainage nightmare of that boggy 18th fairway?


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2011, 11:15:07 AM »
Phil,

I'm curious why Bethpage feels it should get the profitable event without "giving back" a little by hosting other USGA events that will not generate the revenue. Obviously evey course has some sort of budget to follow.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2011, 11:34:03 AM »
Brad,

The problem isn't the cost of maintaining the Black as much as it is the other four courses.

After the success of the Black in 2002 the public began putting pressure on the State to bring the other course's up to the same standard. Bethpage also began a successful push to get the Red course into much better shape and to see it ranked highly which it now is among public courses. They rebuilt numbers of bunkers and tees on the Green course and had actually planned going course-by-course to get the other three (Green, Blue, Yellow) at least on the level of the Red.

So cutting the maintenance expenses for the Park meant stopping some programs planned for and others already in place while continuing expenditures on the other courses already begun. Each course had to undergo severe cuts. In addition to this are the problems the budget crisis has caused to the OTHER Long Island parks with golf courses. At each one of them the last two years have seen their particular Superintendent retire or resign and not one of them have been replaced. This has meant that dave Catalano has had to be involved in them as well. In fact, for about the past 6+ years he has also overseen the care of Montauk Downs and so the budgets for these courses have impacted into Bethpage as well. In order then to balance out the work done on all the other courses the Black's manpower was both cut and shifted.

The biggest problem for Bethpage is that regardless of its condition they will always do huge numbers of rounds on an annual basis. This means that the revenues they produce can produce a more profitable "bottom line" with the maintenance budgets slashed. This is very important throughout the state as these "profits support the entire rest of the New Yoprk State Park system. Without these monies a number of smaller state parks would have to be shut.

So as you can see it really is a much bigger dynamic with Bethpage than any other major municipal facility.

The drainage problem on 18 was caused, NOT by the heavy rains during the Open, but by the extreme rains throughout the entire month before it with the Open rains basically breaching the dam. It was only because of the incredible drainage system at Bethpage (deep natural sand base and man-made) that the Open was even able to be held. There was not another course on the Island that would have been able to do so that week.

Ironically, and fortunately, a budget decision made back in 1934 helped in 2009. The original plans called for a drainage pond to be built at the base of the hill fronting the 1st tee of the Red and going all the way around to the 1st tee of the Green. If that had been built there wouldn't have been the soggy Open at all as the entire plateau would have become a lake...

Ron Csigo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2011, 11:38:30 AM »
Ron,

"Rory - I heard that it had something to do with the local authorities from the municipality.  Since BB is a municipal course, the USGA needs approval from the local officials."  

It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with any "local officials" whatsoever. Bethpage offered them the course for another Open immediately following the 2009 Open. The USGA never got back to them, even not returning phone calls directly made to David Fay. Since the "powers that be" at Bethpage and the State want very much to see the course being used on a major level, after being "snubbed" (their words not mine) by the USGA they entertained offers from the Barclay's who would like to include it in a three-course rotation with Ridgewood and Plainfield. Because of that, and because the PGA has had talks with Bethpage regarding the possibility of hosting the 2020/21 PGA & 2028 Ryder Cup there, The USGA is no longer considering using them for "quite a while."

It is my opinion that the politics for this mess began when Bethpage turned down the USGA's offer of the 2012 U.S. Amateur. They did this because they couldn't justify the losses to the State bean counters. The downward relationship spiral began then. Still until something is signed with Barclay's or the PGA there is hope that reason may prevail. Bethpage would love to host more U.S. Opens. There are some within the USGA who are are working beghind the scenes to try and heal the rift as well as some outside of Bethpage.

The biggest danger is the horrible New York State budget crisis. There have been drastic operating cuts at Bethpage, 25% in maintenance and reductions in manpower such as losing 7 full-time employees who worked solely on the Black. There is a REAL fear that the incredible condition that the course has been maintained in will begin to suffer. One person who is very invovled said to me that his biggest fear is that the course could easily return to near the condition it was in prior to the 2002 Open if they don't put back the maintenance monies. They have been assured that if a contract for an event such as the 2012 Barclay's or a future U.S. Open was signed that the justification for returning the maintenance monies would be there...

Thanks for detailed explanation Phil. 
Playing and Admiring the Great Golf Courses of the World.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2011, 11:42:04 AM »
Jim,

It's not that they have a problem "giving back" but really hosting a US Amateur is a very different thing for a State facility than a private club.

First of all hosting the U.S. Amateur would have required the facility to create an infrastructure every bit as big as the one they did for the Open. Doing so would then have meant that ALL FIVE courses would be closed for three weeks with the Black, Red and Green several more. That would have meant a tremendous impact on revenues. When it is hosted at a private facility this revenue situation is be dealt with in very different ways than a State facility. Because the revenues lost would have been tremendously greater than any additional tax revenues generated by the Amateur it simply could not be justified by the State from their budget standpoint.

I saw the projected numbers and there really was a staggering difference. Bethpage wanted to find a way to justify it because they wanted to highlight the Red course on national television but in the end they were unable to...


 

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2011, 12:05:32 PM »
Steve Young as just one counter argument...

Bruce Wellmon

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Re: Trump National could pinch hit for a U.S. Open
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2011, 12:08:36 PM »
Interesting.
Does the Super Bowl have a back up site?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 12:15:56 PM by Bruce Wellmon »

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