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Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« on: February 17, 2011, 08:24:42 PM »
best score: 67
among those:
longest hitter: JB Holmes
shortest hitters: Corey Pavin
guys playing a fade: vijay, couples etc
guys playing a draw: allenby
and everybody else
                   

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2011, 08:51:26 PM »
The Fazio bunker work has matured nicely.  I wish all the haters hadn't quit the site and could defend themselves.

Peter Pallotta

Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2011, 09:21:30 PM »
Yeah - Corey Pavin is the poster boy/litmus test for good architecture.  I wonder why he never won at the old Augusta, pre Tiger proofing; or at Harbour Town. Does it really all come down to having less par 5s (or shorter ones -- or unreachable ones)?

Peter
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 09:24:12 PM by PPallotta »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2011, 09:45:02 PM »
The Fazio bunker work has matured nicely.  I wish all the haters hadn't quit the site and could defend themselves.
Wrong. They may be aging nicely, but those bunkers aren't even in the same league as the bunkers at the Riv pre-Fazio.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2011, 10:04:11 PM »
Yeah - Corey Pavin is the poster boy/litmus test for good architecture.  I wonder why he never won at the old Augusta, pre Tiger proofing; or at Harbour Town. Does it really all come down to having less par 5s (or shorter ones -- or unreachable ones)?

Peter

Is "Gritty Little Bruin" one of the most sneakily condescending lines of all time? 

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2011, 10:10:01 PM »
Yeah - Corey Pavin is the poster boy/litmus test for good architecture.  I wonder why he never won at the old Augusta, pre Tiger proofing; or at Harbour Town. Does it really all come down to having less par 5s (or shorter ones -- or unreachable ones)?

Peter

Is "Gritty Little Bruin" one of the most sneakily condescending lines of all time?  

An overrated underrated player if there ever was one.  Take away the Open victory (unfair, I know) and what's so amazing about his record?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 10:19:50 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2011, 10:13:31 PM »
Yeah - Corey Pavin is the poster boy/litmus test for good architecture.  I wonder why he never won at the old Augusta, pre Tiger proofing; or at Harbour Town. Does it really all come down to having less par 5s (or shorter ones -- or unreachable ones)?

Peter

Is "Gritty Little Bruin" one of the most sneakily condescending lines of all time? 

An overrated underrated player if there ever was one.  Take away the Open victory (unfair, I know) and what's so amazing about his record?
s

Terry--
You won't get an argument from me!

Andy Troeger

Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2011, 12:29:53 AM »
Riviera is a great course, but the title sounds like taking a conclusion and fitting the theory to match what you already know to be the case. I don't find much correlation between leaderboards and great courses, but I'm sure you could find some if you looked hard enough! Freddie still loves Riviera evidently!

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2011, 01:01:56 AM »
I deleted.  Too weird.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 12:57:05 PM by John Kirk »

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2011, 03:36:52 AM »
I loved watching the coverage last night but, just to play the contrarian, shouldn't a really good course spread the field a bit more?  90 players witnin 5 shots of the lead, even after just one round, is an awfully crowded leader board.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2011, 11:53:20 AM »
I watched an hour or so of it last night and what struck me the most was TGC's fairly crisp coverage,  which made it appear like the field was moving 'fast', no matter what pace of play was actually attained. They didn't waste a lot of time showing elaborate pre-shot routines, and the longest one-shot was of Bubba Watson in the left greenside bunker at #10 where he bobbed up and down for 20 seconds or so before pulling the trigger (on what turned out to be a poor shot).   



 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2011, 02:10:22 PM »
Nice interactive tour of the course on the tournament web page (not pgatour.com):

http://www.northerntrustopencourse.com/

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2011, 02:20:33 PM »
I havent seen Riviera pre-Fazio's bunker work.  Does anyone have before/after comparisons?

Thanks!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2011, 03:05:18 PM »
Go Freddie go!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2011, 01:27:53 AM »
I havent seen Riviera pre-Fazio's bunker work.  Does anyone have before/after comparisons?

Thanks!

Mark

It is not really a before after, but in the following video Geoff Shackelford profiles the 6th hole and the clip included a quick historic shot of the same hole.  

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2011/2/15/quick-and-also-rough-look-at-rivieras-6th.html

(warning.  bad sound)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 01:29:26 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2011, 01:36:37 AM »
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2011, 06:04:50 PM »
Go Freddie go!

Go off camera before expectorating again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmOVDdtn8aU

I watched the clip a few times but didn't see it.

I was at Riviera yesterday, next to the fifth green when a club member standing next to me leaned over the ropes and "expectorated" a nasty loogie right onto the edge of the green, as the pros were lining up their putts.   So perhaps it is accepted practice there.   If so, I'll file it right up there with other accepted practices in which I hope to never participate, like the accepted practice of shirts off at certain parts of some courses.

Interesting comment on television today about Couples not showing up to defend his title at whatever Senior Tour event is taking place this week.  Not necessarily evidence of Riviera's quality, but I think it is safe to say that Couples thinks it is good architecture.  I think he is also a member at the Valley Club in Montecito, so I am think I am inclined to agree with his tastes on at least these two.  
________________________________________

Barney, I don't consider myself a hater, and still think Riviera is a beautiful and compelling course.  But I think you may just be getting used to the look of the Faziofied bunkers.  They just don't look quite right to me, especially in person, but that is just my opinion.

That said, to me most obvious example of what I would would say is the inferior and/or misguided Fazio work is at the 8th hole (I'll leave the bunker work here aside.)   Now that the trees are gone between, one can really view the two fairways and compare them.  To the left you have Riviera at its best, with the quirky rumpled fairway feeding naturally into the barranca. To the right you have what could almost be an elongated  soccer pitch.   And in between you have the wash, where it looks like they have tried to make it quirky or natural, but the shapes are squarish and sharp and look very contrived.   It looks a bit like the a skateboard park grassed over.    

I will say, though, that with the trees gone the left fairway seems to be a bit more of a reasonable option, and I did see a number of golfers play intentionally left with the thursday right pin position.  

Riviera is such a great place and has remained so even though some of the changes may have been questionable.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Jansen

Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2011, 06:22:27 PM »
So help me out... I played Riviera in 2007.  Who bunkers did I see... Thomas or Fazio?  I wasn't aware they had been redone... what I saw made a huge impression on me.  The bunkering on #9 stands out amongst those.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2011, 09:09:43 PM »
So help me out... I played Riviera in 2007.  Who bunkers did I see... Thomas or Fazio?  I wasn't aware they had been redone... what I saw made a huge impression on me.  The bunkering on #9 stands out amongst those.

Great question, who gets credit for the bunkers; Thomas, Bell, Fazio, or MacDonald and Sons?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2011, 10:32:22 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmOVDdtn8aU

I watched the clip a few times but didn't see it.


About the 11 second mark just after he crosses the path. 

I just put it on Youtube for fun because I was watching the tournament the other night with my 9-yr old and as Fred expectorated my son said "Dad - look, Fred Couples just spit!  You need to report him!"  My son watches Sportscenter all the time and knew about both Tiger's spit in Dubai and the phone-in rules violations on the PGA Tour...so this incident combined both.

Sorry for the thread diversion.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2011, 10:38:18 PM »

That said, to me most obvious example of what I would would say is the inferior and/or misguided Fazio work is at the 8th hole (I'll leave the bunker work here aside.)   Now that the trees are gone between, one can really view the two fairways and compare them.  To the left you have Riviera at its best, with the quirky rumpled fairway feeding naturally into the barranca. To the right you have what could almost be an elongated  soccer pitch.   And in between you have the wash, where it looks like they have tried to make it quirky or natural, but the shapes are squarish and sharp and look very contrived.   It looks a bit like the a skateboard park grassed over.    

I wish I recorded Peter Oosterhuis's comments a few years ago on either Thursday or Friday (more free-flowing Golf Channel coverage) when they had a blimp shot of the 8th and Oosterhuis said that it seemed to him that the hole needed changes...that the Fazio design was flawed.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2011, 11:49:38 PM »
Here is the aerial from Google Earth of the two fairways.  I've cut off the back few tees behind the visible ones. Although it doesn't do the movement in the left fairway justice, it does give some idea of the strange and sharp formations in the arroyo between the two fairways.  Any one have any thoughts on what the idea might have been here?

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sam Morrow

Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2011, 11:51:06 PM »
Nice interactive tour of the course on the tournament web page (not pgatour.com):

http://www.northerntrustopencourse.com/

That is really awesome course tour.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2011, 12:48:08 AM »
Nice interactive tour of the course on the tournament web page (not pgatour.com):

http://www.northerntrustopencourse.com/

That is really awesome course tour.

The 8th hole is out of date on that tour. 
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: You know Riviera is a great course with this leaderboard
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2011, 12:51:28 AM »
Here is the aerial from Google Earth of the two fairways.  I've cut off the back few tees behind the visible ones. Although it doesn't do the movement in the left fairway justice, it does give some idea of the strange and sharp formations in the arroyo between the two fairways.  Any one have any thoughts on what the idea might have been here?

I just looked at the first round coverage again, and Oosterhuis commented again on the 8th.  He said that the barranca used to come into play much more from the right side...that it went up closer to the green.  "The barranca was a major threat over the years."  Not so much now.

Now there is that odd sand stream that runs through the barranca...very strange looking.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

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