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Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2011, 07:24:26 PM »
I will try to get as much info as possible on the nominees so far, but I would love some help!

And I would also love to see some more examples of Alps holes, so please keep the nominations coming.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2011, 07:58:01 PM »
The Dell and the 5th at Painswick are not "Alps" holes to me.  A blind par-3 should be a separate category if you can find room for it ... call it the Maiden category after the original.

I think my final four here would be the original at Prestwick, the 3rd at National Golf Links, the 13th at Rye [which no one has mentioned yet], and maybe the 16th at Old Macdonald if nobody comes up with a better fourth.  I love St. Enodoc, but the sixth there is not a better Alps than any of the above.  If a blind second shot on a par-5 counts in this category, then throw in the 7th at Ekwanok.

If we'd gotten to build the Farm course at Cape Kidnappers, the Alps hole there woulda been a contender.

I am ssssooooooooooooooooo disappointed the 7th at Jawbone Creek does not make your final four. :(
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2011, 08:25:17 PM »
Gleneagles King's 3 (does it qualify as an alps, I never realised such?)

http://www.gleneagles.com/golf/golf-courses/king's-course-/virtual-course-guide/hole-3

Cristain,
The 3rd at Gleneagles Kings is about a 375 yd par 40 with a 50' ridge crossing about 75 yds short of the green. That's why I nominated it earlier.

Phil McDade

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2011, 09:20:10 AM »
Richard:

The Alps at Blue Mound, in suburban Milwaukee, an original Raynor. Certainly not as dramatic as others depicted here, but faithful to Raynor's design intent. Excerpts from my thread on Blue Mound from last year:


#4 (par 4, 388/372 – Alps)
 The Alps plays over dead-level ground. Golfers need to be conscious of two bunkers cutting into the fairway at an angle midway down the fairway right, but again they are easily cleared for most players, and the fairway offers plenty of width to avoid them.


Only an aerial approach will do here.


Another terrific green awaits the golfer on the 4th, a large oval with several horizontal folds.


Note the geometric symmetry to the mowing patterns of the green – a common feature at Blue Mound.


Here’s George Bahto...describing a Raynor Alps, which fits perfectly with what the golfer encounters at Blue Mound: “Seth Raynor built an Alps on most courses, but they were generally identified as having ‘Alps bunkering’ – meaning some cross-bunkering in front of the green. Instead of a blind approach over a ‘mountain,’ Raynor customarily positioned his Alps renditions just over the crest of a rising fairway – then cross-bunkering the green complex. Sadly, many clubs covered in the cross bunker because they did not understand the origin and concept. Alps greens usually had a spine of sorts running through the green to compound putting problems.

Philippe Binette

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Jason Topp

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2011, 10:59:41 AM »
This is a stretch but is a good hole - Kingston Heath 17:


JNC Lyon

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2011, 11:13:55 AM »
I've played three legitimate Alps Holes: The original 17th at Prestwick, the 11th at Tain, and the 5th at Yeamans Hall.  For me, the Alps is great due to the combination of the heroic blind approach over a large dune or mound AND a wild green.  The 11th at Tain lacks a great green, and the 5th at Yeamans lacks a completely blind approach (although Raynor did a good job simulating an Alps on flat ground).

However, Prestwick is great because it has those two elements of blindness and a wild green.  I knew what to expect with the second shot there, but I had no idea the shot would be so thrilling.  The hole played into the wind the day I played it, meaning that both times I played the hole I had to rip a 2-hybrid over the dune and hope for the best.  The green, however, came as a complete shock.  The green is shaped like a halfpipe turned on its side.  If a golfer misses the green in any direction, he will have a tough up and down but will also have many recovery options.  On my second go at the Alps, I hit my second shot left of the green into wispy fescue.  I then opened up a pitching wedge and pitched my shot off the back bank of the green.  The ball finished three feet away, and I tapped in for par.  My recovery was one of the most thrilling shots I hit that day.  What other golf hole would yield such a thrill on a chip shot?

From my limited experience, I nominate the 17th at Prestwick as the original and ultimate Alps hole.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Philippe Binette

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2011, 11:23:42 AM »
The pictures I posted are from the 4th holes at Mont Adstock Golf Club near Thetford Mines, Quebec.
par 4 - 420 yards, the mounds are like 40 feet high (probably some bedrock covered by dirt)

What I love about the holes is the fact that a perfectly placed drive can be placed on a narrow gap on the right side on top of the hill, leaving you a clear view of the green...
but a little left and the ball runs down the hill on the left side, leaving a blind, over the bunker approach
a little too far right and you're blocked by some trees 50 yards further.

the gap is about 10 yards wide and requires a 235 yards carry but you can,t hit it more than 260 on that line.

great holes, maybe less heroic but more strategic than the normal Alps hole

Sean_A

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2011, 11:23:53 AM »
The Dell and the 5th at Painswick are not "Alps" holes to me.  A blind par-3 should be a separate category if you can find room for it ... call it the Maiden category after the original.

I think my final four here would be the original at Prestwick, the 3rd at National Golf Links, the 13th at Rye [which no one has mentioned yet], and maybe the 16th at Old Macdonald if nobody comes up with a better fourth.  I love St. Enodoc, but the sixth there is not a better Alps than any of the above.  If a blind second shot on a par-5 counts in this category, then throw in the 7th at Ekwanok.

If we'd gotten to build the Farm course at Cape Kidnappers, the Alps hole there woulda been a contender.

Tom Agreed, The Dell and #5 at Prestwick are not Alps holes.

I didn't mention #13 at Rye because I don't think it is a patch on St Enodoc's 6th.  I really dislike the green at Rye.  It reminds me of the boring green for the Alps at Lahinch (probably the worst hole on that course).

Ciao  
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jamie Barber

Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2011, 11:40:44 AM »
How about the 16th at Southport and Ainsdale -the Grumbleys

These pictures are from the club website (www.sandagolfclub.co.uk)

From the tee
http://www.sandagolfclub.co.uk/images/photogallery/26.JPG

A look at the mounds
http://www.sandagolfclub.co.uk/images/photogallery/13.JPG

Looking back from the green
http://www.sandagolfclub.co.uk/images/photogallery/27.JPG

Does the fact that it's a rather long approach matter for the template:
http://www.sandagolfclub.co.uk/include/images/sanda/courses/holes/16bg.gif

*EDIT* can't get pictures to embed
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 11:47:27 AM by Jamie Barber »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2011, 11:46:35 AM »
How about the 16th at Southport and Ainsdale -the Grumbleys

These pictures are from the club website (www.sandagolfclub.co.uk)

From the tee


A look at the mounds


Looking back from the green


Does the fact that it's a rather long approach matter for the template:


*EDIT* can't get pictures to embed
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Topp

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2011, 11:52:31 AM »
While there is no denying the magic of the original, using the hole as a template has always struck me as a strange choice.  Such holes involve no strategic decision whatsoever, they are difficult for high handicap players and the blindness of the approach shot is also a drawback.  

I would choose to build such a hole only in locations where the land cries out for one.  Does anyone know the original thinking on why this was a hole to be copied?

John Mayhugh

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2011, 12:28:25 PM »
While there is no denying the magic of the original, using the hole as a template has always struck me as a strange choice.  Such holes involve no strategic decision whatsoever, they are difficult for high handicap players and the blindness of the approach shot is also a drawback.  

I would choose to build such a hole only in locations where the land cries out for one.  Does anyone know the original thinking on why this was a hole to be copied?

I think CBM wanted the hole to require two well-played shots to have any hope of hitting the green, and felt that the uncertainty of results was the fun of the hole.  With the front bunker, an approach that's off by just a yard could be awful instead of great. 


As far as nominations, might as well include the 4th at Fishers Island.  It's a stronger contender in the Punchbowl category, though.  I don't see how anywhere is going to beat National's Alps.  This hole at Fishers may win neither individual category, but it's still one of the overall top template examples I can think of.





As Doak mentioned, the second shot at Rye's 13th.  A cool approach shot, but w/o a bunker in front of the green, the thrill of the climb up is lessened.









Garland Bayley

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2011, 01:11:30 PM »
...they are difficult for high handicap players...

On what basis do you conclude this?

Being a high handicap player, I think alps is easier for high handicap players.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill_McBride

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2011, 01:33:08 PM »
...they are difficult for high handicap players...


On what basis do you conclude this?

Being a high handicap player, I think alps is easier for high handicap players.

Why?  On the Alps at NGLA, two almost perfect long shots, or a great up and down, are required to make par.

Even if par isn't your goal but say bogey, there is no easy lay up with the big hill of rough and the cross bunker in your way.

As a guy whose handicap is rising while his shots get shorter, I found the Alps to be the hardest hole at NGLA by far.  I was very pleased with my two bogies that fine day.

I'm just curious about your thinking on this one.

Phil McDade

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2011, 01:34:25 PM »
Undeniably, the Alps at the Reverse Jans National is the greatest Alps hole in the world ... due to its tunnel approach option.

Best hole I've ever played...

The tee shot is over the proceeding green:


The fairway runs out here, approaching the green bench and garbage can:


The heroic shot over the El tracks, and various other fauna:


The tunnel option:


The green, with its wild contours:



Jason Topp

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2011, 01:39:18 PM »
...they are difficult for high handicap players...

On what basis do you conclude this?

Being a high handicap player, I think alps is easier for high handicap players.

Forced carry.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2011, 02:30:33 PM »
...they are difficult for high handicap players...

On what basis do you conclude this?

Being a high handicap player, I think alps is easier for high handicap players.

Forced carry.

Many high handicappers have never been low handicappers. Therefore, their problems are going to be different than, for example, aging former low handicappers. Certainly a significant number of high handicappers that have never been low have a problem with targets. The blind shot relieves half the pressure of the shot. The high handicapper only needs to meet the distance requirement of the shot. The target, being ambiguous, is a minor concern.

EDIT: Forced carry is of little concern. If I miss the shot, and not carry it, at least I am not in a hazard.
EDIT2: On second thought, often alps has a hazard before the green (as the original did). Since I made the carry at Old Mac with no problem, I didn't even realize there were hazards there. Shoot, I'm screwed now for my next go around. ;)

« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 02:37:27 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jason Topp

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2011, 03:17:59 PM »

Many high handicappers have never been low handicappers. Therefore, their problems are going to be different than, for example, aging former low handicappers. Certainly a significant number of high handicappers that have never been low have a problem with targets. The blind shot relieves half the pressure of the shot. The high handicapper only needs to meet the distance requirement of the shot. The target, being ambiguous, is a minor concern.

EDIT: Forced carry is of little concern. If I miss the shot, and not carry it, at least I am not in a hazard.
EDIT2: On second thought, often alps has a hazard before the green (as the original did). Since I made the carry at Old Mac with no problem, I didn't even realize there were hazards there. Shoot, I'm screwed now for my next go around. ;)


Sorry about that!  I understand the idea that a blind green might be less of a problem for a high handicap (although at least one study showed that low handicaps do better if they do not know where the hole is located because they shoot for the middle of the green). 

The original Alps has a significant hill covered in long grass and then a gaping bunker in front of the green.  I am thinking of that type of hole - where a less than solid approach will wind up either in the long grass or in a very difficult bunker. 

I have not played the Old Mac version so there may be hope for you yet on that one.

Greg Holland

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2011, 05:23:52 PM »
Would anyone consider 14 at North Berwick to be an Alps hole? 

Also on Gullane No. 2 -- I believe it is hole 3 -- it is like driving up a mountain, though the hole is not an Alps, you feel like you are in them. 

Bill_McBride

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2011, 06:20:21 PM »
Would anyone consider 14 at North Berwick to be an Alps hole? 




Greg, I think it has to have the blind cross bunker in front of the hole to qualify as an "official Alps."

Otherwise it's "Perfection!"

J Sadowsky

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2011, 06:22:02 PM »
Would anyone consider 14 at North Berwick to be an Alps hole? 

Also on Gullane No. 2 -- I believe it is hole 3 -- it is like driving up a mountain, though the hole is not an Alps, you feel like you are in them. 

Which is older, the Prestwick Alps hole or the 14th at North Berwick?  If the 14th is older (I don't know the answer to this), then how could it be a template of a yet-to-be-designed hole?


Cristian

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2011, 03:23:59 AM »
Gleneagles King's 3 (does it qualify as an alps, I never realised such?)

http://www.gleneagles.com/golf/golf-courses/king's-course-/virtual-course-guide/hole-3

Cristain,
The 3rd at Gleneagles Kings is about a 375 yd par 40 with a 50' ridge crossing about 75 yds short of the green. That's why I nominated it earlier.

Sorry I missed your post! I was in doubt because the green is at grade wirth the FW more or less, where I thought that an Alps hole features a green not behind, but more or less on top of a mount. I wonder if holes like RSG 5 (I know called sahara, but in its present form it has nothing to do with the sahara template) would qualify if it is not a prerequisite that the green is on higher ground. The green however is 70 or 80 yds behind the mounts on flattish ground.



Another nominee (from club website) just 340 yds in length:



Although the green is visible from the tee, the approach from the fairway is blind.

Richard Choi

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2011, 05:47:16 PM »
Sorry, Christian, but RSG stands for...?

Garland Bayley

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Re: Template Hole Madness!!! - 1st Region - ALPS - Taking nominations now
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2011, 05:51:15 PM »
Sorry, Christian, but RSG stands for...?
Royal St. Georges?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne