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Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #150 on: February 21, 2011, 04:19:06 PM »
Kevin Lynch,

If Donald Trump didn't sell the houses to the owners, with the inducement of spectacular views, he has no obligation to perpetuate those views.

If you buy a house, and while looking across the street, there are open lots that provide you with a nice view of woods and mountains or the ocean in the backround, does that mean that another person can't buy that lot and build a home for themselves, because it blocks your view  ?


I understand your point, and I suppose it depends upon the applicable zoning regulations and assurances that were given to Aberdeen City officials regarding the construction intentions.  I'm not sure if Trump had to give assurances that there would be no artificial impediments to the views of existing residents.

I was asking the question because I vaguely recall some controversy over whether Trump was allowed to do what he was doing.  I wanted to get some clarification on the issue.

I suppose you may be right that Donald has every right to block their views.  But is it really necessary, or could there a more tactful way of handling this?

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #151 on: February 21, 2011, 05:21:00 PM »
I'm done with this Patrick. You're either ignorant or naive. Maybe both.

Have fun hanging with the Donald....





While I'm still waiting for Patrick to touch base with his contacts at the Golf Channel to find out about Trump approving episodes of Donald J. Trump's Fabulous World of Golf, I simply made an inquiry with someone at Golf Channel in media relations. Here's what he came back with:


Robert, try being honest when we engage in these discussions/debates.

In your reply # 91, here's what you stated:
[/b]
Quote

I have some contacts at GC. I'll contact them tomorrow to see who exactly is financing the show and whether Trump has approval over the final result.
[/i]

To which I replied in reply # 92:
Quote

So do I, Sounds like a great idea, you go first.[/color][/b]

You deliberately misrepresented my clearly stated position, by indicating that you were waiting for me to report back first.
Thus I have to question your objectivity and your intellectual honesty.
As they say, false in one, false in many.
If you're going to resort to being deceitful, I have no interest in continuing a discusson/debate with you subsequent to this post.[/color][/b]

From Jeremy Friedman, Media Relations, Golf Channel:

"Regarding the Trump series, Golf Channel retains sole creative control of the series as we are the sole copyright holder.  Donald Trump does see the shows before they air, but simply to make sure we haven't mis-represented his brand in any way. That said, we respect Mr. Trump’s point of view and if there are things he suggests regarding the show, we will listen and sometimes implement, but the final creative decisions are solely those of the Golf Channel.  The Workshop is a production company that we (Golf Channel) hired to produce the series.  We collaborate but ultimately they execute our direction.  The Workshop also produces The Haney Project series for us."

This is what I stated, while you and others claimed that Donald Trump exercised broad based editorial control.
You were wrong, I was right.
Next case.
[/b]

So I guess it is a not clear cut.

It sure is clear cut.
"THE GOLF CHANNEL RETAINS SOLE CREATIVE CONTROL.
It doesn't get much clearer than that.
If you weren't so biased against him you would recognize the meaning of "sole creative control"
Case closed.  
Next
[/b]

Does Trump see them in advance? Sure does, though I'm not sure whaet "mis-represented his brand in any way," means.

Sure you are, unless you're just playing dumb.
[/b]

I read that to say the program doesn't include anything that Trump does not want included.

That's PURE BS and you know it.
"SOLE CREATIVE CONTROL" says it all.
If you don't know what protecting the "Trump Brand" is, contact an attorney for assistance.
In addition to failing to be objective, you're being disengenuous.
[/b]

Of course, they do say Trump presents, "his point of view," and "we will listen."

Robert, I realize how difficult it is for you to admit, defeat, but, it's game, set, match.
It's over.
The Golf Channel retains "SOLE CREATIVE CONTROL". It doesn't get any clearer than that.
[/b]

To me this is typical corporate speak. The Golf Channel "maintains" editorial control, but for fear of "misrepresenting" Trump, they allow him to clearly provide his perspective.

Robert, Robert, Robert,  No twisting of words to try to justify your uninformed opinion will suffice.
It's over, "THE GOLF CHANNEL RETAINS SOLE CREATIVE CONTROL"

Have a nice day(;;)

And if Golf Channel wants to continue its affiliation with Trump, I think the writing is clear.

Only in your mind

Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #152 on: February 21, 2011, 05:37:48 PM »
Kevin,

Good questions.  I'd assume that there must be some zoning requirements re building heights, grading etc included in the approvals, but who knows. Wonder whether the approvals anticipated holdout owners on the property and whatever "rights" they might have.  The one holdout property overlooks the dunes and course land.  I assume the development of houses and hotels will in fact be around the holdout property.  So, another question would be, is the berming just between the property and the course or between the property and all the surrounding development?

For perspective, the farm land slopes gently down to the dunes and then the sea.  Here's a view from the highway looking east.  This view is from just south of the property, but gives a sense of the topography.





Here are two pictures from about a half mile south of the property.  The first one looking west and north-west up to the farm land.  The second looking north-west and north.  The holdout property is about a mile up towards the red X.  I imagine the views from the property would be pretty nice towards the sea.














« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 05:40:59 PM by Bryan Izatt »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #153 on: February 21, 2011, 06:36:22 PM »
Kevin, Bryan, et. al.,

The notion that no one can perform any construction on their property because it impedes the views from other properties is preposterous.

If that was the case, the first home built in a development could prevent any other home from being built.

Do you cretins understand the onerous scope of your positions.

Should Seminole have to tear down all of the trees and vegetation on their north, south and western property lines so that the neighbors can see into the golf course ?

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #154 on: February 21, 2011, 08:51:01 PM »

Niall,

I think the discussion has expanded far beyond your categorization.

As exhibit "A" I would cite Carl Nichols post, whereby he's already, without ever having played or seen the golf course, decided that it's an inferior golf course not worthy of play.

I think this was the same Carl Nichols who made the same claims against Bandon, Whistling Straits and Pinehurst.

Patrick-
Not sure to whom you meant to refer, but I certainly haven't said that about the Trump course here or elsewhere (or about any of the others, all of which I've played).

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #155 on: February 21, 2011, 10:11:39 PM »
Carl Nichols,

My appologies, it was Carl Johnson who made the statement.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #156 on: February 21, 2011, 11:13:51 PM »
Kevin, Bryan, et. al.,

The notion that no one can perform any construction on their property because it impedes the views from other properties is preposterous.

I can assure you that where I live that if I wanted to construct a berm on my property that I would need to get a building permat and that would require a hearing where interested parties (including my neighbours) would be allowed to provide input on the impact of my proposed changes on their properties (including the views).  I have no idea what Scottish zoning laws are like, but I'd guess they are closer to mine than they are to your's or Florida's.

If that was the case, the first home built in a development could prevent any other home from being built.

Nice non sequitur.  This was about a property that was outside the development; not about first and subsequent homes within a development.  Most developments I know have to meet local zoning regulations and have restrictions on the type, style, size, height, setback, lot coverage etc of houses allowed in the development.  I doubt that there is anyone who would expect what you stated above.  You're not usually so nonsensical.

Do you cretins understand the onerous scope of your positions.

Should Seminole have to tear down all of the trees and vegetation on their north, south and western property lines so that the neighbors can see into the golf course ?

Another total non sequitur.  What are you thinking tonight.  Were there any zoning bylaws in Palm Beach County when Seminole was built?  Did the zoning bylaws speak to trees?  Does any place have zoning restrictions on trees and other natural growth?  In my neighbourhood the government plants trees on the easements and requires a permit before you remove any trees even on private property?  What does any of this have to do with Scottish zoning requirements and the specific requirements for Trump's development.


Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #157 on: February 22, 2011, 02:02:31 PM »
"...and while I'm in the mood for having a rant. Lets address the question of the "berm" fronting the houses. I'm not really familiar with that term but presumably it means some sort of artificial dune or mounding used to screen out the houses. Mr Trump, and yes I'm assuming it was his decision to screen the houses, seems to think this a good idea.

"Berming" and "screening" are common, modern day, architectural features.

Time and time again, Tom Huckaby and others on this site have indicated how important the views beyond the property lines are.
If an object, a factory, open pit or homes are deemed to be an eyesore, why wouldn't you berm them to enhance the golf course and the golf course experience.

What's the difference between a well landscaped berm and/or row of trees and another house or better yet, a  maintainance barn  ?
Would you rather look at another house, a maintainance barn or a natural appearing, landscaped berm ?"


Patrick - who says I think those houses are an eyesore or indeed take anything away from the view ?

Niall, it's not what you think, it's what the developer thinks.
If he thinks the houses have a negative impact on the presentation, he's free to act within the law and berm or screen those houses from views from the golf course.
[/b]

With respect to Tom Huckaby et al I was talking about Scottish Golf and a Scottish golf course and suggesting that buildings, rather than detract from the view actually add to it by giving the course a sense of place. When you're standing on the 17th tee at the Old Course what would you rather play over, a certain letter fixed to the shed or a row of nice conifers ? Patrick, its all about context and an artificial berm or screen or whatever you want to call it adds nothing other than expense, and I may add makes the Trump organisation seem petty.

I don't think you can compare the surrounding environment in St Andrews to that of the site at Aberdeen.
Artificial berms can be made to look quite natural.
Would the berms eliminate views from those houses ?  Probably, but, what it houses were built where the berm would be located ?
As to them being "petty", I think he's trying to achieve perfection.  Can the two intersect ?  Probably.
[/b] 

"what's the difference between a well landscaped berm and/or row of trees and another house or better yet, a  maintainance barn  ?
Would you rather look at another house, a maintainance barn or a natural appearing, landscaped berm ?

You can't have it both ways."

Patrick - See my answer above.

Ditto
[/b]

"Just look at where Sebonack put their maintainance barn and staff residence building.
Immediately adjacent to the 5th hole at NGLA.
So, NGLA bermed it.
Should they have left it open ?

You can't have it both ways.(;[/b] "

Patrick - I've never been to Sebonack or NGLA so not really equipped to pass comment but let me suggest that while you have come up with some apt examples on this thread, in this case citing two courses on the other side of the world might not be the most relevant. I suggest you reread my original post and consider the points I'm making about the context of where this course is being built.


I understand that.
There seems to be a conflict of golfing cultures.
But, isn't that tangential to the conflict that development brings in general ?
Status quo versus change ?
[/b]

"Let's not lose sight of the fact that these courses were crafted 300 years ago, not last week.
You can't compare the creation of courses removed centuries from each other when the development process was seperated by light years"

Patrick - golf has been played at both TOC and North Berwick for hundreds of years and in that time both courses have been continually evolving like every other course of the age and yet in that continual process of alterations no-one has planted trees and created a screen to block out the town. And as for comparing a modern design with architecture of the past, is that not what the bulk of the threads on this site are about in one way or another. As a great man once said, you can't have it both ways.


Part of that view point is rooted in the fact that the town was always there
It wasn't like TOC was an isolated spit of land with nothing nearby.
The genesis and evolutionary process of both courses is light years apart, physically and culturally.
One took centuries to evolve, the other's can be measured in months. 
[/b]



Patrick

I really wish I had the knack of typing in coloured text. I must have spent half an hour the other night trying to do that and failed as you can see. So rather than try and interject my responses to your individual responses etc let me respond in general to many of the good points you make.

When I had my "rant" regarding buildings overlooking courses I was making a general point and not trying to be prescriptive in how you must treat buildings on courses etc. As you say its a clash of cultutres and I dare say many an Amercian might otherwise play the course and say great course, great views but what the hell were the thinking in keeping those old rundown houses beside the course. Alternatively they might not bat an eyelid and like Carl J have taken them in as part of the scenery and moved on. Either way, and as you say, Trump is perfectly within his rights to build a berm provided it conforms with regs etc.

Whether he is legally right however won't stop him looking petty in the court of public opinion. Much of the Scottish and even international press regarding the building of this course has focused on his dealings with these houseowners. His pretty flagrant lobbying for CPO powers to be used has gone down badly with most people as you might imagine in a country where great swathes of the population were evicted from their homes only several generations ago. To belatedly say that he's not looking for the CPO powers to be used and at the same time block the view of the houses and block the view from the houses can't help but seem petty and an act of bad grace. No matter, he has his permissions and in time all will have been forgotten by most.

One last point. You talk of the genesis and evolutionary progress of this course being in months. The fight for planning permission, not counting the initial period of inception, has been several years plus the building of the course which is going to be how long ? Then what ? I'll bet if you had the opportunity to look back at this course from a hundred years hence that you would see a course which had continually evolved either at the hand of man or due to natural forces. Similar to TOC in fact. Don't believe me ? How many changes has Kingbarns had, or the Dukes St Andrews, or the two St Andrews Bay courses ? And all of them are relatively new. Now you take that process over a hundred years and I suspect that you will find the course which will be opened for play in the near future will be a good bit different from the one in a hundred years.

Niall 


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #158 on: February 22, 2011, 04:58:50 PM »
Kevin, Bryan, et. al.,

The notion that no one can perform any construction on their property because it impedes the views from other properties is preposterous.

I can assure you that where I live that if I wanted to construct a berm on my property that I would need to get a building permat and that would require a hearing where interested parties (including my neighbours) would be allowed to provide input on the impact of my proposed changes on their properties (including the views).  I have no idea what Scottish zoning laws are like, but I'd guess they are closer to mine than they are to your's or Florida's.

In what city/town do you live ?
I'll look up the ordinances.
Internal berms usually don't require permits on a golf course project.
As to screening, some municipalities/counties may require an offset and a height limitation on certain species.
For example, a hedge may require a 25 foot offset and an 8' limit, but, trees would require neither constraint.
[/b]

If that was the case, the first home built in a development could prevent any other home from being built.

Nice non sequitur.  This was about a property that was outside the development; not about first and subsequent homes within a development.  Most developments I know have to meet local zoning regulations and have restrictions on the type, style, size, height, setback, lot coverage etc of houses allowed in the development.  I doubt that there is anyone who would expect what you stated above.  You're not usually so nonsensical.

You missed the point.
If I bought a lot and in building my home on that lot, my house blocked the view that an existing home previously enjoyed, that existing homeowner does not retain the right to prevent me from building my home as long as it conformed to the approved zoning.

The notion that a homeowner is entitled to views beyond their property, in perpetuity, is absurd.
That you don't understand that concept seems to be obstructing your view of the situation at Trump Aberdeen.
[/b]

Do you cretins understand the onerous scope of your positions.

Should Seminole have to tear down all of the trees and vegetation on their north, south and western property lines so that the neighbors can see into the golf course ?

Another total non sequitur.  What are you thinking tonight.  Were there any zoning bylaws in Palm Beach County when Seminole was built? 

Of course there were.
Do you think zoning ordinances came into existance in 1978 ?
[/b]

Did the zoning bylaws speak to trees?
 


They speak to trees and other forms of vegatation and inanimate objects
[/b]

Does any place have zoning restrictions on trees and other natural growth? 


Palm Beach County and the municipalities have restrictions, not zoning restrictions, on the types of barriers that can be created between property owners.  ie, there's difference between trees and hedges.
[/b]

In my neighbourhood the government plants trees on the easements and requires a permit before you remove any trees even on private property?


When you provide the name of the town/city you live in, I'll research the buffer provisions.
[/b]

What does any of this have to do with Scottish zoning requirements and the specific requirements for Trump's development.


It's the same principle.

If instead of a berm, Trump built a maintainance barn, or a house for the Superintendent, do you feel that the homeowner has the RIGHT to prevent the building of a structure on Trump's property ?   Before answering, think of the impact of that "right" in terms of valuing the property, for sale and/or for taxes.



Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #159 on: February 22, 2011, 05:33:17 PM »
I really wish I had the knack of typing in coloured text. I must have spent half an hour the other night trying to do that and failed as you can see. So rather than try and interject my responses to your individual responses etc let me respond in general to many of the good points you make.

I'm also having a hard time using the colors, size, bold and other features and I can't cut and paste.
Is anyone else experiencing these difficulties ?


When I had my "rant" regarding buildings overlooking courses I was making a general point and not trying to be prescriptive in how you must treat buildings on courses etc. As you say its a clash of cultutres and I dare say many an Amercian might otherwise play the course and say great course, great views but what the hell were the thinking in keeping those old rundown houses beside the course. Alternatively they might not bat an eyelid and like Carl J have taken them in as part of the scenery and moved on. Either way, and as you say, Trump is perfectly within his rights to build a berm provided it conforms with regs etc.

I think you're right, some golfers won't notice the buildings and others will, some will regard them as an eyesore.

Ken Bakst had a similar decision to make on his 3rd hole at Friar's Head.
There was an old barn directly behind the 3rd green.
He chose to leave it there.
Some feel it added character to the hole, others felt it was an eyesore.
So, it's perspective, "beauty residing in the eye of the beholder"
[/b]

Whether he is legally right however won't stop him looking petty in the court of public opinion.
Much of the Scottish and even international press regarding the building of this course has focused on his dealings with these houseowners.
His pretty flagrant lobbying for CPO powers to be used has gone down badly with most people as you might imagine in a country where great swathes of the population were evicted from their homes only several generations ago. To belatedly say that he's not looking for the CPO powers to be used and at the same time block the view of the houses and block the view from the houses can't help but seem petty and an act of bad grace. No matter, he has his permissions and in time all will have been forgotten by most.

Nobody knows the formula for success, but surely, the formula for failure is to try to please everybody.
On a project of this scale, I'm sure that there are a multitude of objectors on a wide variety of issues.
If the developer, any developer caved and catered to each and every objection, I doubt the project would reach fruition.
And, if it did, the quality would be dramatically diluted, distilled into mediocrity by compromise.

I often wonder how much better Sebonack would have been without Tom Doak having to compromise with just one person, Jack Nicklaus.
Now, maybe that's presumptuous on my part, but, I can't help thinking that Sebonack would have been a better golf course had Tom Doak "retained sole creative control".  Contemplate for a second, the finished product at Sebonack, had a committee been responsible for its design.
Then expand that to every self interest group on the East End.

I know for a fact that some homeowners in the area objected to building a golf course on that site because they maintained that it might disturb historical indian tribal or burial areas.  In one context, that allegation is comical.  It didn't stop the objectors from building their homes on that land.
Other nearby homeowners indicated that they wouldn't object to a course being built if they were granted free memberships.

So, sometimes the local homeowner objections need to be scrutinized more carefully before you side with the "underdog" or "little guy"
against the assumed, big, bad developer, and, even worse, Darth Trump.

I don't know the specific homeowners, or the particular specifics of each case.
But, I do know that I object to someone dictating how I should treat my property, ONLY because they have a beneficial interest, a bias, when making their opinion known.

I was involved in similar situations where nearby homeowners demanded that they be granted views onto an adjacent golf course, when that golf course was neither a party nor an agent inducing them with respect to the purchase of their home.
Some threatened to file suit.
My view was, go ahead, file a suit.  We're not responsible for your views and we can do what we want with our property as long as we abide by the local, county and State ordinances.
Our position was upheld.
[/b]

One last point. You talk of the genesis and evolutionary progress of this course being in months. The fight for planning permission, not counting the initial period of inception, has been several years plus the building of the course which is going to be how long ? Then what ? I'll bet if you had the opportunity to look back at this course from a hundred years hence that you would see a course which had continually evolved either at the hand of man or due to natural forces. Similar to TOC in fact. Don't believe me ? How many changes has Kingbarns had, or the Dukes St Andrews, or the two St Andrews Bay courses ? And all of them are relatively new. Now you take that process over a hundred years and I suspect that you will find the course which will be opened for play in the near future will be a good bit different from the one in a hundred years.


Niall, you can't compare the genesis of two courses, in two vastly different sites, in different times, one urban, one rural, where one took centuries and the other, contemporaneous, taking months or even a few years.  It's really not a valid analogy, but, I understand your point.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #160 on: February 22, 2011, 07:14:52 PM »
Kevin, Bryan, et. al.,

The notion that no one can perform any construction on their property because it impedes the views from other properties is preposterous.

I can assure you that where I live that if I wanted to construct a berm on my property that I would need to get a building permat and that would require a hearing where interested parties (including my neighbours) would be allowed to provide input on the impact of my proposed changes on their properties (including the views).  I have no idea what Scottish zoning laws are like, but I'd guess they are closer to mine than they are to your's or Florida's.

In what city/town do you live ?
I'll look up the ordinances.
Internal berms usually don't require permits on a golf course project.
As to screening, some municipalities/counties may require an offset and a height limitation on certain species.
For example, a hedge may require a 25 foot offset and an 8' limit, but, trees would require neither constraint.
[/b]

If that was the case, the first home built in a development could prevent any other home from being built.

Nice non sequitur.  This was about a property that was outside the development; not about first and subsequent homes within a development.  Most developments I know have to meet local zoning regulations and have restrictions on the type, style, size, height, setback, lot coverage etc of houses allowed in the development.  I doubt that there is anyone who would expect what you stated above.  You're not usually so nonsensical.

You missed the point.
If I bought a lot and in building my home on that lot, my house blocked the view that an existing home previously enjoyed, that existing homeowner does not retain the right to prevent me from building my home as long as it conformed to the approved zoning.

The notion that a homeowner is entitled to views beyond their property, in perpetuity, is absurd.
That you don't understand that concept seems to be obstructing your view of the situation at Trump Aberdeen.
[/b]

Do you cretins understand the onerous scope of your positions.

Should Seminole have to tear down all of the trees and vegetation on their north, south and western property lines so that the neighbors can see into the golf course ?

Another total non sequitur.  What are you thinking tonight.  Were there any zoning bylaws in Palm Beach County when Seminole was built? 

Of course there were.
Do you think zoning ordinances came into existance in 1978 ?
[/b]

Did the zoning bylaws speak to trees?
 


They speak to trees and other forms of vegatation and inanimate objects
[/b]

Does any place have zoning restrictions on trees and other natural growth? 


Palm Beach County and the municipalities have restrictions, not zoning restrictions, on the types of barriers that can be created between property owners.  ie, there's difference between trees and hedges.
[/b]

In my neighbourhood the government plants trees on the easements and requires a permit before you remove any trees even on private property?


When you provide the name of the town/city you live in, I'll research the buffer provisions.
[/b]

What does any of this have to do with Scottish zoning requirements and the specific requirements for Trump's development.


It's the same principle.

If instead of a berm, Trump built a maintainance barn, or a house for the Superintendent, do you feel that the homeowner has the RIGHT to prevent the building of a structure on Trump's property ?   Before answering, think of the impact of that "right" in terms of valuing the property, for sale and/or for taxes.



In answer to your color question above, yes, I'm having trouble with the buttons in reply screen.  None of them work.  They did a few weeks ago.  Something has gone wrong with the hosting software.  I assume Ben and Ran are aware.

Doing colors manually is too painful, so here are some answers:

I lived in the city of Vaughan, ON for 20 odd years in a residential community.  I've now moved to a high rise condo in the city of Toronto, ON.  Knock yourself out with studying our zoning bylaws in the socialist monarchy of Canada.  ;)

I didn't miss your point.  I said it was a non sequitur.  Your blue statement makes the point more clearly.  Obviously if the building conforms to the zoning bylaws and building codes then you're good to go.  To relate it back to Trump, the question is: does his approval contain any restrictions on how he interfaces with the surrounding properties?  Are there any height restrictions on barriers between the development and neighbouring properties?  I don't know.  Do you?  In my city there are restrictions on the height of fences between houses and around back yards, but that's irrelevant to the Trump situation in Scotland.

Oh, was Seminole built in 1978?  What were the bylaws in 1929 or thereabouts.  Do you know what they were?

I don't agree that it's the same principle.  Scottish regulations may be nothing like NJ or FL.  I would guess that in Scotland that Trump can build whatever has been approved to be built regardless of it's impact on views.  I assume the view issue was considered (or not) as part of the approval process.  What I don't know is if there are any restrictions on berming or plantings to block his view of his unwanted neighbour or his neighbours views over his property.

When I was briefly looking at Palm Beach County's zoning bylaws I came across an application for a church.  The plan approved showed berming around the property. What do you suppose would be the impact if they bermed it 10 feet higher than approved?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #161 on: February 22, 2011, 09:30:54 PM »
Bryan,

In Palm Beach County, berming may have more to do with water flow and drainage than anything else.

I've created 20 foot berms, 10 foot berms and 5 foot berms, some really massive, and in doing so, I don't believe that permits were required as part of the general construction project, but, I'll review my files when I next visit Florida.

One can't compare inner city zoning ordinances to those applicable to rural areas.

My guess is that Mike Keiser had a relatively free hand in developing Bandon.
Same for Kohler at Whistling Straits.
Same for Rees Jones at Atlantic, although there were offset requirements where water was involved.

This would lead me to believe that the same would apply to Trump in Aberdeen.
If, a hole came close to any of those houses, and Trump wanted to berm/dune that hole's border, I can't imagine him not being granted permission.

What I haven't been able to get across to you is that the homeowner's ability to dictate design/construction on someone else's property is akin to extortion.  You want the homeowner to be able to dictate what Trump can do on Trump's property, and there's something inherently wrong with that principle.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #162 on: February 22, 2011, 09:42:32 PM »
. . . As exhibit "A" I would cite Carl Johnson's post, whereby he's already, without ever having played or seen the golf course, decided that it's an inferior golf course not worthy of play. . . .

Pat, with all due respect, I did not say that I had decided that it's an inferior golf course not worthy of play.  Let me be clear.  What I said was that for my part I'd rather play other, older, traditional courses.  That's all.  The Trump course of which we speak may in fact, three or twenty years from now, or whenever, be universally recognized as the greatest course in the world worthy of play by every golfer, from the best there are to guys like me.  Still, I'd prefer to play the other courses.  That's all I said.  I did not say it was inferior, which I could not of course, because it's not finished, or unworthy or play, for the same reason.  I think we need a judge and a jury here.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 09:44:56 PM by Carl Johnson »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #163 on: February 22, 2011, 10:01:19 PM »
Carl,

I wonder if you'd have said the same thing if the course was designed by Tom Doak or Coore & Crenshaw ?

Quality is quality, irrespective of the owner/developer, architect or age of the course.

One would think that the course's reputation as a fun, challenging golf course would be the principle factor in prioritizing your order of play.

I got the distinct impression that you were "dissing" the course because of "The Donald"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #164 on: February 22, 2011, 10:14:31 PM »

Definitely we should wait.  It's easy for me to be skeptical at this point though. 

Trump thinks his FL course is better than Seminole;

and his LA course is better than Pebble.

Didn't Pete Dye design the L.A. course long before Donald purchased it ? 
[/b]

He said he spent $61 million on one hole alone in LA. 

That was for mitigation or necessary repair work when some holes slid into the Pacfic Ocean.
[/b]

He loves to add artificial waterfalls; and insists they are not artificial.[color]

Off the top of my head I can only think of two courses that Trump had designed for him, three with Aberdeen.

West Palm Beach, a Fazio design and the New Course at Bedminster, a Fazio design.

I don't recall any waterfalls at Bedminster, but, there's certainly one at WPB, which is a nice course, which could be even nicer with some fine tuning.

I haven't played the new nine yet. but those two courses are the ONLY two courses currently in play, that I can think of, that he built from the ground up, as opposed to acquiring them.  Are there any others ?

If not, then shouldn't we ONLY judge the work he's done on the courses he's built rather than the courses he's acquired ?[/color]

  

Jim Nugent

Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #165 on: February 23, 2011, 01:19:56 AM »
Patrick, Trump himself takes credit for designing his LA course.  I copied this direct from the course website:

"Who designed the Trump National Los Angeles Golf Course?
This golf course is the world’s first and only Donald J. Trump Signature Design."   

And from an article on that same website, Trump says, “It’s a Donald J. Trump design, you know.”

He spent $61 million on one hole... got what I repeatedly hear is a mess of a course... and says it's better than Pebble.  I hope he does not play much of a role in designing the Aberdeen course.  (I still think the project will probably fall through.)


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #166 on: February 23, 2011, 04:58:47 AM »
Pat

I take your point about the obvious extension of the protection of views being only one property in a large area.  However, and it may be extrortion, but planning authorities in England (and the difference with Scotland isn't great) absolutely can require developers to alter plans because of views - often times associated with conservation.  For instance, houses on a street behind the "High St" in an attractive village can be required to lower their roof levels to preserve the view from the High St.  Additionally, land may be made a concervation area to protect views of a village from a certain direction.  Furthermore, hedge heights are dictated in England not for views per say, but to allow sunlight - which often amounts to the same thing as views.   

I find the concept of building a berm around a protected building to be harsh.  The owners of the Coastguard Station had little choice in what they could do with the building.  For the house to be buried behind a berm because the owners followed planning regulations is unreasonable to say the least - especially when we condsider that Trump hadd that plot of land earmarked for one his blocks.  As I say, I don't like the way Trump has gone about his business in Scotland and its a sorry affair to have the Scottish gov't in bed with this project.  I won't be playing the course regardless of its reputation because golf most certainly takes a back seat in this incidence.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #167 on: February 23, 2011, 05:05:30 AM »
Can't help but weigh back in despite common sense saying I shouldn't:

Regarding the "berming" issue, never mind what Donald Trump is saying... I'm not sure which area this is referring to but there are two I can think of.... One of them I'd say that 95% of architects would have built a screen... The other which is more directly influencing a hole and long views, I'd still guess that the vast majority of architects would build some form of false mounding because the transition into plain farmland would have been quite stark and unbalanced... (this is all planning consented assumed...)

So let's leave Trump's supposed bullying tactics out of it... we've talked about that ad nauseum...
Let's leave the building on an SSSI out of it... we've talked about that ad nauseum...

Let's be happy that becuase of the current economic situation, the golf course will have time to bed in and stake its own claim before the real estate plans see the light of day...

And lets stop assuming that because Trump goes on a telly program and boasts about designing golf courses that he is automatically the most interfering client with bad ideas that any architect has ever had to deal with.... Because I've heard directly that he's been quite a good client to deal with, golf-wise....

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #168 on: February 23, 2011, 09:20:22 AM »
Carl,

I wonder if you'd have said the same thing if the course was designed by Tom Doak or Coore & Crenshaw ?

Quality is quality, irrespective of the owner/developer, architect or age of the course.

One would think that the course's reputation as a fun, challenging golf course would be the principle factor in prioritizing your order of play.

I got the distinct impression that you were "dissing" the course because of "The Donald"

Yes, assuming that by "the course" you mean Trump's course, designed my Martin Hawtree.  I would still prefer to play the older, traditional courses.  Which is not to say that after the hypothetical Doak or C&C course, or the actual Hawtree course, developed a great reputation and found a comfortable place in the Scottish golf landscape, I would still not want to play there.  By way of a loose analogy, I've played Kingsbarns, but only because by golf touring buddies had it on their list as a "must play."  For myself, while I found it to be a very nice course and enjoyable to play, in my mind I could not place it in the St. Andrews/Fife landscape, and I would not want to go back.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #169 on: February 23, 2011, 02:29:17 PM »
Carl,

I wonder if you'd have said the same thing if the course was designed by Tom Doak or Coore & Crenshaw ?

Quality is quality, irrespective of the owner/developer, architect or age of the course.

One would think that the course's reputation as a fun, challenging golf course would be the principle factor in prioritizing your order of play.

I got the distinct impression that you were "dissing" the course because of "The Donald"

Yes, assuming that by "the course" you mean Trump's course, designed my Martin Hawtree.  I would still prefer to play the older, traditional courses.  Which is not to say that after the hypothetical Doak or C&C course, or the actual Hawtree course, developed a great reputation and found a comfortable place in the Scottish golf landscape, I would still not want to play there.  By way of a loose analogy, I've played Kingsbarns, but only because by golf touring buddies had it on their list as a "must play."  For myself, while I found it to be a very nice course and enjoyable to play, in my mind I could not place it in the St. Andrews/Fife landscape, and I would not want to go back.

Carl

Re your observation on Kingsbarns, you're not alone. I personally like the course but wouldn't put it up there with the best links I've played but then neither would I put Dornoch or the Old Course in my top 5 so most people would say I don't know what I'm talking about. What I do think is world class about that course is the way a dull agricultural fields was transformed into a rugged, mostly natural looking landscape. Something that I think the creator didn't get close to with Castle Stuart IMHO.

Your observation between old and new probably accounts for my tastes too.

Niall 

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #170 on: February 23, 2011, 02:38:54 PM »
Carl

Re your observation on Kingsbarns, you're not alone. I personally like the course but wouldn't put it up there with the best links I've played but then neither would I put Dornoch or the Old Course in my top 5 so most people would say I don't know what I'm talking about...

Apologies for the threadjack, but this is too good to pass up! Please post a list of your top 10 links courses on a new thread, it would make a great addition to the various lists threads.

As an aside, I can't imagine there is a zoning law in the entire world that would allow building a berm that would obscure another's view for the purpose of blotting out the view of said person. The only places this would be allowed would be the kind of places that don't have zoning laws.

Carry on...
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 02:41:01 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #171 on: February 23, 2011, 02:52:36 PM »
Can't help but weigh back in despite common sense saying I shouldn't:

Regarding the "berming" issue, never mind what Donald Trump is saying... I'm not sure which area this is referring to but there are two I can think of.... One of them I'd say that 95% of architects would have built a screen... The other which is more directly influencing a hole and long views, I'd still guess that the vast majority of architects would build some form of false mounding because the transition into plain farmland would have been quite stark and unbalanced... (this is all planning consented assumed...)

So let's leave Trump's supposed bullying tactics out of it... we've talked about that ad nauseum...
Let's leave the building on an SSSI out of it... we've talked about that ad nauseum...

Let's be happy that becuase of the current economic situation, the golf course will have time to bed in and stake its own claim before the real estate plans see the light of day...

And lets stop assuming that because Trump goes on a telly program and boasts about designing golf courses that he is automatically the most interfering client with bad ideas that any architect has ever had to deal with.... Because I've heard directly that he's been quite a good client to deal with, golf-wise....

Ally

You're an enthusiast for this project which is fair enough. What you can't deny is that there are some important issues that desrve some discussion and at least some of them are design related. I think I'm right in saying your in the business. I've started another thread an hopefully you will contribute, I certainly hope so.

George

I might take you up on that but bear in mind I said Dornoch  and TOC wouldn't get in the top 5. I think I'll need to put some thought into this one and get ready for the backlash.

Niall

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #172 on: February 23, 2011, 06:02:09 PM »
George

I might take you up on that but bear in mind I said Dornoch  and TOC wouldn't get in the top 5. I think I'll need to put some thought into this one and get ready for the backlash.

Niall

Niall

Dornoch and TOC wouldn't make my personal or best top 5 links either. 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #173 on: February 23, 2011, 08:52:52 PM »
Pat

I take your point about the obvious extension of the protection of views being only one property in a large area.  However, and it may be extrortion, but planning authorities in England (and the difference with Scotland isn't great) absolutely can require developers to alter plans because of views - often times associated with conservation.  For instance, houses on a street behind the "High St" in an attractive village can be required to lower their roof levels to preserve the view from the High St.  Additionally, land may be made a concervation area to protect views of a village from a certain direction.  Furthermore, hedge heights are dictated in England not for views per say, but to allow sunlight - which often amounts to the same thing as views. 

Sean, I don't think you can equate conservancies, with the issue at hand.
In the U.S. boundary fences and hedges are ofter limited in height.
Rarely are trees limited.

Trump received permission for his project, it's not as if he's completed the project and is going back for additional variances.
I'd be very surprised if another property owner has "extortion" rights over the use of another property that they have no ownership in.
[/b] 

I find the concept of building a berm around a protected building to be harsh.  The owners of the Coastguard Station had little choice in what they could do with the building.  For the house to be buried behind a berm because the owners followed planning regulations is unreasonable to say the least - especially when we condsider that Trump hadd that plot of land earmarked for one his blocks.  As I say, I don't like the way Trump has gone about his business in Scotland and its a sorry affair to have the Scottish gov't in bed with this project.  I won't be playing the course regardless of its reputation because golf most certainly takes a back seat in this incidence.


What I find interesting is the assumption on almost everyone's part that Donald Trump planned the entire development, soup to nuts, that he didn't engage any professionals as part of the planning process.  No engineers, hydrologists, architects, planners, etc., etcc.
That he and he alone is the creator of every aspect of this project.

Now suppose for a second, that Patrick Fitzgerald, a planning consultant/landscape architect, presented a report to Hawtree recommending the berming of the property so as to "screen" the view, and, that Donald Trump new nothing of the intent until he arrived on scene.  Would he still be the villain ?  Don't bother to respond as I already know the answer.

In golf, as in life, you must take the good with the bad, the bitter with the sweet, and in this case, the project as a whole, even though there may be disagreements with some of the individual elements.

Donald Trump has grand plans, for a resort which will include a 36 hole golf course, a golf course that he wants to be as good as it can be.

And, what do some of you do ?  Nit Pick, like Magpies.

I'll guarantee you that if the work you do was subjected to the same level of scrutiny, your life would be miserable, because someone can, and always will, find fault with various aspects of your work.

So, rather than whine about his management style, his hair, his demeanor and his personality, wait until the golf course is fininshed and playable, then do your due diligence, your analysis, and then and only then, bring forth your opinions and criticisms.
Just don't forget to give the devil his due, if he deserves it.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Trump's Aberdeen Episode
« Reply #174 on: February 23, 2011, 09:23:05 PM »
Pat

Yes I can speak of conservation because that is what the Coastguard house is about and the reason for my thinking its a bit harsh to punish a landowner because he followed planning guidlelines (meaning he has an ugly house).  I don't know what ACC will do or have done, but I would hope they would be sympathetic with the Coastguard house owners.  Afterall, they bought their house because of the views and knowing that the neighbouring land could not be developed.  The price they paid for that was to have an ugly house.  Well, the developement aspect didn't hold up, but I hope ACC preserves their views so long as a reasonable standard is set.  It wouldn't matter to me if Hawtree, Trump or God called for the berm in the plans.  My wish would be for the Coastguard owners to get a fair shake in this process - that usually involves compromise because its rarely black or white in these sorts of situations.     

Planning applications, especially of this size are not normally completed in one go.  There is a lot of back and forth even before an application is submitted.  The negotation continues through the entire process.  Its impossible to plan for everything because of the consultation process which often turns up stuff not previously accounted for.  Its better to think of the proces as draft of a paper.  Some papers take more drafts and not necessarily because the original draft was lacking. 

I am not whining about Trump at all.  I don't care for his public persona on this deal or the way he has gone about this development.  That is my opinion and I have good reasons for holding it.  I stated earlier that I won't be playing Trump Scotland and I meant it.  The course holds no interest for me other than its a shame it was allowed to be built.  You obviously like the man and what he has accomplished.  I don't know enough about Trump to draw any conclusions about him from that end of things.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing