Trump's Aberdeen Episode

[Kevin Lynch]

I couldn't help myself from looking in on the "Fabulous World" Episode tonight dealing with Trump's visit to his Aberdeen project. The hardest thing was determining which of his comments was the most stunning.  Perhaps there was some unfavorable editing, but several comments left me dumbstruck.  A sampling of these were:

1) Build a Hole With a Wide Fairway - "Let's build one like that."  During the discussion of widening one of the holes, Trump didn't make a single mention of why that may have merit in terms of playability, different options / angles, etc.  Instead, the extent of his reasoning for doing this was because he noticed that Pine Valley had some wide fairways during his flyover.  Somewhere in his mind, I think he wants to to be able to say "this must be the greatest course in the world, we have one hole with a wide fairway like Pine Valley."  Even when they interviewed the associate architect, he didn't mention any architectural basis for such a change, just that (paraphrasing) "Mr. Trump wants it done on a grand scale."

2)  Discussion of Filling in a Portion of Lake - "You want to make it smaller?"  During his walkthrough, part of his team discussed the possibility of filling in a portion of a lake on the 10th hole to "change the angle."  I think Donald's brain filtered out any discussion of strategic impact or design considerations - he fizzled out upon hearing "smaller."  Clearly this guy is obsessed with the notion that "Water = Great," so bigger water = greatest in the world.  He even gave some great advice to his architect that "if you can do something good with the 10th hole, that should be a signature hole."  Yes, Donald, nothing captures the essence of the "greatest links / dunes course in the world" than a hole built around a lake.  Seems like strategy is a mere afterthought to Trump.

3)  "Bandon Dunes is a little toy compared to this"  - No commentary needed - just enjoy that nugget.


4)  Removal of Stone Wall Formation - "You shouldn't even have to ask me if that should be removed."  In walking the course, there was a formation of stones running across one of the fairways.  I'm not sure if this formation was created during the clearing of the land or if it existed when he bought the property.  But it was apparent Donald had absolutely no interest in something as natural as a rock formation spoiling his perfect course.  This comment wasn't too head-shaking, but the way he berated his staff over it was appalling.  Someone on his staff was unfortunate enough to suggest that these types of formations could add charm to a course, and asked if Donald wanted to keep it or bury it.

Good thing he never visited Pete Dye Golf Club's 14th hole - Donald may have had a heart attack.

Like I said, maybe not the most egregious choice by Donald, but it led to this final nugget:

5)  "They're all very aesthetic people or they wouldn't be working for me."  From seeing his interactions with his crew, I think the main criterion for a Trump Employee is the ability to set aside your dignity to tolerate Donald's arrogance.

I'd love to hear some Architects' impressions of Donald's "input" during the walkthrough.  Please feel free to tell me if I'm missing something, but it seems like Donald's obsession with "look" doesn't bode well for the project.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Donald Trump is the Client.

Martin Hawtree with associate Caspar Grauballe are the architects. I can assure you that they know what they are doing.

Like any project, the client will have an input to a greater or lesser degree. I was told that Donald Trump has a great eye for remembering the landscape which is at least a decent start.

The 10th hole will be a fantastic hole not because of the lake but because of the natural green site. The key to the split strategy of the hole will be to get players playing both ways which is perhaps why they talked about reducing the lake size. The island fairway opens the second shot (par-5). The normal fairway leaves a blind second.

Incidentally, there is a high water table on the site and a lot of natural water.

I did not see last night's program but I cannot wait to see the finished course.

[jeffwarne]

Donald Trump is the Client.

Martin Hawtree with associate Caspar Grauballe are the architects. I can assure you that they know what they are doing.

Like any project, the client will have an input to a greater or lesser degree. I was told that Donald Trump has a great eye for remembering the landscape which is at least a decent start.

The 10th hole will be a fantastic hole not because of the lake but because of the natural green site. The key to the split strategy of the hole will be to get players playing both ways which is perhaps why they talked about reducing the lake size. The island fairway opens the second shot (par-5). The normal fairway leaves a blind second.

Incidentally, there is a high water table on the site and a lot of natural water.

I did not see last night's program but I cannot wait to see the finished course.

I meant to watch last night's show.
Anyone know when it reairs?

I'm guessing I'll never play there, not because of the course but just because I'm certain I wouldn't suffer the production.
His Bandon quote was unnecessary and downright silly.
I certainly wouldn't want to draw comparisons to a 4 course complex that was 6000 miles away and in another country.
particularly 4 courses that are some of the greatest in the world-all in one resort.

[Adam Clayman]

The most interesting was about the super. I got the impression the super was trying to tell him that mistakes can often be made in the doses of chemical applications. And why would you risk losing the Marjam grass if a mistake was made.

I thought this was an SSSI?

[JNC Lyon]

Donald Trump is proof that all the money in the world can't buy taste.  His creations appear vulgar, and he has no sense of the traditions of the game or what makes good architecture.  He's simply a spoiled kid who always wants things his way.  Although I'm a free-market guy, Trump is the embodiment of the problems of capitalism and conspicuous consumption.

[Tom Yost]

The most interesting was about the super. I got the impression the super was trying to tell him that mistakes can often be made in the doses of chemical applications. And why would you risk losing the Marjam grass if a mistake was made.

I thought this was an SSSI?

My guess would be that the super knows a lot more about chemicals that DJT.  Again, it's a TV show, but the super seemed to be the only one who wasn't a boot lick suck up.  The end result - FIRED!

[Sean Leary]

Its just unfortunate that he is forcing his will on the design. Hard to tell if they are taking into account prevailing winds and the like.

Is it possible that he has only seen Pine Valley from the air? Seems like it based on his comments about the 300 yd wide fairways..

[Ally Mcintosh]

Its just unfortunate that he is forcing his will on the design. Hard to tell if they are taking into account prevailing winds and the like.

My question is how do you know he is doing this any more or less than other clients?

And how do you know his opinion is more or less informed than other clients?

Not sure the relevance of your prevailing wind question...

[Sean Leary]

Its just unfortunate that he is forcing his will on the design. Hard to tell if they are taking into account prevailing winds and the like.

My question is how do you know he is doing this any more or less than other clients?

And how do you know his opinion is more or less informed than other clients?

Not sure the relevance of your prevailing wind question...

I don't know for sure, but I would guess that he is based upon his personality. It just seems like he is going for all WOW with every decision,that we see least. Obviously there is a lot more going on decisionwise that is not on television. But did you hear him "assumed close" with Hawtree?  "Martin, you are going to do X, right?" Do I think all clients do that, no I don't.

[JNC Lyon]

Its just unfortunate that he is forcing his will on the design. Hard to tell if they are taking into account prevailing winds and the like.

My question is how do you know he is doing this any more or less than other clients?

Because he is featuring his design plans for the golf course on a television show.  Even the most overbearing clients don't do that.

[Tom Yost]

Did any of the Philly guys see the mention of Cobbs Creek in the previous episode?  Trump mentions playing there frequently while he was attending Wharton and they showed a couple of seconds of footage.

[Adam Clayman]

There was plenty of fodder when presented with what he described as never having to deal with before. Faced with great ground it sounded like he wanted to consider re-routing somewhere near the 16th hole. Like getting away from the plans was a foreign concept.
It shows how we here who emulate those that design in the dirt are spoilt and just expect the best ground will be used to its greatest use. Having THAT figured out somewhat a head of time.  How about the cash (I assume) he laid on Martin giving him first count. Which is always strong.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Its just unfortunate that he is forcing his will on the design. Hard to tell if they are taking into account prevailing winds and the like.

Is it possible that he has only seen Pine Valley from the air? Seems like it based on his comments about the 300 yd wide fairways..

Sean and Kevin,

Why don't we wait and see what the finished product looks like before being critical.

The "Donald" might just surprise us all.

[Tim Pitner]

Its just unfortunate that he is forcing his will on the design. Hard to tell if they are taking into account prevailing winds and the like.

Is it possible that he has only seen Pine Valley from the air? Seems like it based on his comments about the 300 yd wide fairways..

Sean and Kevin,

Why don't we wait and see what the finished product looks like before being critical.

The "Donald" might just surprise us all.

Pat,

You seem to be sort of an apologist for Mr. Trump--I'm not sure why.  If you've seen the program, it's easy to be critical of Mr. Trump.  He treats the people who work for him very shabbily, has a lot of questionable priorities with respect to golf course design and generally comes off as an insufferable egomaniac.  I have no idea whether he's always like this or not, but that is definitely what one takes away after watching the show.  I presume that Mr. Trump sees the Golf Channel show as good publicity for him--that's hard to understand. 

I agree we should wait before critiquing the golf course--the program suggests, though, that if a good to great course is built there, it will be in spite of Mr. Trump, not because of him. 

[Adam Clayman]

Why don't we wait and see what the finished product looks like before being critical.

Pat,

Dr. Klein walked the proposed route. Don't you think he was fair in his criticisms ?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Why don't we wait and see what the finished product looks like before being critical.

Pat,

Dr. Klein walked the proposed route. Don't you think he was fair in his criticisms ?

Adam,

From my walk of the proposed route, I happen to disagree with many of Brad Klein's criticisms.

[Kevin Lynch]

Its just unfortunate that he is forcing his will on the design. Hard to tell if they are taking into account prevailing winds and the like.

Is it possible that he has only seen Pine Valley from the air? Seems like it based on his comments about the 300 yd wide fairways..

Sean and Kevin,

Why don't we wait and see what the finished product looks like before being critical.

The "Donald" might just surprise us all.

Pat,

You seem to be sort of an apologist for Mr. Trump--I'm not sure why.  If you've seen the program, it's easy to be critical of Mr. Trump.  He treats the people who work for him very shabbily, has a lot of questionable priorities with respect to golf course design and generally comes off as an insufferable egomaniac.  I have no idea whether he's always like this or not, but that is definitely what one takes away after watching the show.  I presume that Mr. Trump sees the Golf Channel show as good publicity for him--that's hard to understand. 

I agree we should wait before critiquing the golf course--the program suggests, though, that if a good to great course is built there, it will be in spite of Mr. Trump, not because of him. 

I think Tom summarized what I was feeling (apologist comment notwithstanding).  I wasn't trying to criticize the final product this early and recognize that last night's program is a limited basis.  And I certainly wasn't attempting to criticize Hawtree - I'm sure he's very good at what he does.

My reaction was mainly to the comments and behavior of Donald.  He wants the biggest lake possible and seemed completely incapable of comprehending that there may be a strategic upside to make the hole better if a portion was filled in.  In all his shows, I have never once heard him discuss the playing options a hole may present.  Rather, the only comment I ever hear is "isn't that the most beautiful hole - look at that!"  Hopefully, someone like Hawtree will take care of that for him, but with his domineering style, I could imagine some good ideas being overridden because of his single-minded idea of what a "good" hole is.

I don't think Donald views his working relationship with Hawtree as collaborating with a very qualified professional.  I've been a professional for 20 years, and I've never had a client try to stick some cash into my pocket as a "tip."  Is that how you would treat a professional that you respect, or is that how you'd treat a "server"?  Perhaps it was meant for Hawtree to share with his workers, which would be better.  But then you'd have to ignore the fact that it was obviously done in a way so it would be captured on camera, even though such a "bonus" could have been handled much more discreetly.

[Kevin Lynch]

The most interesting was about the super. I got the impression the super was trying to tell him that mistakes can often be made in the doses of chemical applications. And why would you risk losing the Marjam grass if a mistake was made.

I thought this was an SSSI?

My guess would be that the super knows a lot more about chemicals that DJT.  Again, it's a TV show, but the super seemed to be the only one who wasn't a boot lick suck up.  The end result - FIRED!

That was some of the impression I received.  I think the super was attempting to explain the complexity and risks of what Donald wanted, but Trump seems to have no interest in nuance.

Again, this illustrates his lack of respect for his employees.  He seems to think the super simply has "grunt work" to do, not anything as complex as chemistry. 

[Nick_Christopher]

While highly entertaining in that "watching a train wreck" way, the episode cleary showed that Donald Trump has a singular goal to create what in his mind is the greates golf course in the world.  His hyperbole and frequent use of superlatives is a window onto the modern golfer's psyche.  The notion that you can rank golf courses against some objective set of criteria and the pursuit of grandiosity is what has driven the golf business to the brink.  In Donald's and many modern golfers minds', bigger is always better; and if there is something as unfortunate as a single house in your sight-line, just build a dune up to block it! 

Because of the spectactular natural features of the site, I'm sure the course will be very beautiful and memorable.  It remains to be seen whether the construction crew will be forced to manufacture too many "great" holes, or if some restraint will be applied to a great piece of land.

[J Sadowsky]

While highly entertaining in that "watching a train wreck" way, the episode cleary showed that Donald Trump has a singular goal to create what in his mind is the greates golf course in the world.  His hyperbole and frequent use of superlatives is a window onto the modern golfer's psyche.  The notion that you can rank golf courses against some objective set of criteria and the pursuit of grandiosity is what has driven the golf business to the brink.  In Donald's and many modern golfers minds', bigger is always better; and if there is something as unfortunate as a single house in your sight-line, just build a dune up to block it! 

Because of the spectactular natural features of the site, I'm sure the course will be very beautiful and memorable.  It remains to be seen whether the construction crew will be forced to manufacture too many "great" holes, or if some restraint will be applied to a great piece of land.

I would only disagree with the terminology "in his mind."  I think what he wants to do is create a course that is *regarded* as the greatest course in the world.  Trump is hardly the genius many make him out to be, but the point of his marketing and reality TV shows show is not just advertising or brand awareness, but also to try and change people's values about what matters.  In that sense, he is not only trying to say that his course is the best in the world - he is trying to set the criteria for judging what the best course in the world is, and then claim that his course wins on that criteria.

[JNC Lyon]

While highly entertaining in that "watching a train wreck" way, the episode cleary showed that Donald Trump has a singular goal to create what in his mind is the greates golf course in the world.  His hyperbole and frequent use of superlatives is a window onto the modern golfer's psyche.  The notion that you can rank golf courses against some objective set of criteria and the pursuit of grandiosity is what has driven the golf business to the brink.  In Donald's and many modern golfers minds', bigger is always better; and if there is something as unfortunate as a single house in your sight-line, just build a dune up to block it! 

Because of the spectactular natural features of the site, I'm sure the course will be very beautiful and memorable.  It remains to be seen whether the construction crew will be forced to manufacture too many "great" holes, or if some restraint will be applied to a great piece of land.

Nick,

I don't think Trump is objective at all.  He is very biased towards anything he builds, regardless of what it is.  The idea of building one of the best courses in the world is not an invention of the modern era.  These were goals with courses like Pine Valley, NGLA, Lido, Oakmont, and many others.  The problem now is that "greatness" is equated with excess and massive spending.  Many developers have a twisted concept of how to make a course great, and Trump is the leader of that pack.

Trump has employed no restraint on any of his other courses.  He built two artificial waterfalls on an oceanfront site in California.  Why is there any reason to believe he will start employing restraint now.

[hick]

The show airs again on Wednesday  9:30 East coast.

[Bob_Huntley]

Bumped from a while ago.



1  GolfClubAtlas.com / Golf Course Architecture / Re: Trump in Scotlandon: November 14, 2010, 02:02:42 PM 
Started by Dean Stokes, Message by Bob_HuntleyRelevance: 31.8%
My distaste for the man has been mentioned before.

Relevance: 22.8%
Quote from: Bob_Huntley on January 31, 2010, 04:51:29 AM
I couldn't sit back anymore.....

5  GolfClubAtlas.com / Golf Course Architecture / Re:Better than Pebble (Trump Content)  on: April 15, 2004, 11:25:54 pm 
Started by Jeffrey Formanczyk, Message by Bob_Huntley


How on earth can anyone give credence to anything this man says. His ridiculous hairstyle with dyed ends makes him out to be a mountebank.

Surely, he is one of the most odious men in the public eye.

Bob
 

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Its just unfortunate that he is forcing his will on the design. Hard to tell if they are taking into account prevailing winds and the like.

Is it possible that he has only seen Pine Valley from the air? Seems like it based on his comments about the 300 yd wide fairways..

Sean and Kevin,

Why don't we wait and see what the finished product looks like before being critical.

The "Donald" might just surprise us all.

Pat,

You seem to be sort of an apologist for Mr. Trump--I'm not sure why. 


Not at all, but, at least be realistic and fair in your criticisms.
Make sure you have all of your facts right.[/b]

If you've seen the program, it's easy to be critical of Mr. Trump. 

I have not seen the program.[/b]

He treats the people who work for him very shabbily,


I can't speak for all of his employees, but, of the ones I've spoken to, they had nothing but good things to say about him, AND, I pressed them for the negatives, but, they stood fast in their praise.

So, was this for the camera ?  For the theatre ?  For the ratings ?[/b]

has a lot of questionable priorities with respect to golf course design and generally comes off as an insufferable egomaniac.  I have no idea whether he's always like this or not, but that is definitely what one takes away after watching the show.  I presume that Mr. Trump sees the Golf Channel show as good publicity for him--that's hard to understand. 

Don't you have to see the finished product, the golf course BEFORE you criticize it ?[/b]

I agree we should wait before critiquing the golf course--the program suggests, though, that if a good to great course is built there, it will be in spite of Mr. Trump, not because of him. 

That's pure BS.  If a good to great golf course is built there it's due to the efforts of one man, Donald Trump.
He's the one responsible for the entire project, for the final product, good, bad or indifferent.
If it's a good to great course, it's due to his efforts and he should get credit for it.[/b]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Huntley,

You know that I respect you and your opinions, but, you're missing a critical point.

It's "showtime", he's on, he's performing.

Do you think that "The Apprentice" would have been popular if he was a nondescript milktoast.

The guy knows how to promote and he produces quality projects, in his buildings, TV shows and Golf Clubs.

He's also very, very smart.

Like Don King, his hairstyle is part of his persona.

He can be a very funny, very personable individual, but, he's not on TV to act like the normal every day citizen or golfer.

It's an act and he's fooled you all.