Charlie " Steam Shovel" Banks in NJ

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

The subject just came up in another thread.

Mr. Banks certainly dug a lot of trenches in the Garden State after departing from teaching at the Hotchkiss School.

What's your favorite?

Mine is the one Banks 9 hole set at Montclair. Charles B. MacDonald School on steroids, almost to the same scale that Seth Raynor created at Yale.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The Knoll, Forsgate, Hackensack, Essex County are all very good courses located within an hour of each other.

I'll be back later

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Are all the original Banks holes still in existence at Foresgate CC in NJ?

I played the course once as a teenager and the again recently and with all the real estate development that has gone on in the interim I felt that some of the holes from the old Bank's course might have been eliminated and the course rerouted.

Of course my brain may just be gruyere cheese and I am mis-remembering the golf course.

Please inform me.

[JNC Lyon]

Malcolm,

Of the New Jersey Banks courses, I've only played Hackensack.  It is a ton of fun, and the course has gotten better each time of seen it.  Bill Brightly and company are overseeing some great changes there, with the Biarritz and Redan holes in their original glory.  On top of the great layout, the club is first-rate, with an excellent clubhouse, solid caddie program, and a great staff.  Honestly, I can't say enough good things about Hackensack.  Most of the reason that it attracts such a great atmosphere is because of the superb Banks layout.

[Matt_Ward]

Malcolm:

The Banks Course at Forsgate is still the same one. The real estate you mentioned really only impacts the compansion 18 at the same facility.

In my mind, the collective par-3 hole there are only exceeded in the cunulative by the likes of what you find at Pine Valley and Plainfield.

The Knoll, as Pat Mucci mentioned, is also a fine public course layout now -- thanks to the work of George Bahto. With some additional tweaks here and there could be even better.

Hackensack, as JNC mentioned, is also a fine layout.

I personally believe the work Hanse and Bahto did for Essex County has elevated it to top five status in the Garden State. Used to be the news on that club was about the back nine holes -- they have done extrenely well, in cooperation with the club's leadership, have really made a formerly good course into a much better one.

Let me also point out that Banks did other work in NJ -- two of the nines at Montclair bear his name -- although the 4th nine is the one that bears the closet connection to its original form.

[George_Bahto]

Matt - why do TWO nines at Montclair Golf bear his name - only the 4th is his work

Banks also built Rock Spring according to his and Raynor's plans - Raynor died just after they broke ground there

and don't forget Banks built the Essex County Park Commission course in Belleville - the scene of some of the best money matches in NJ. We knew the course as "Branch Brook" but it is also known as "Hendrick's Field"  -   that was the "funnest" place - played there for about 7 years after I came out of the Navy

Banks designed a course called Criossing CC near Trenton that never got built - Wendehack was to built the clubhouse

Other courses of Raynor in NJ;

Morris County
Essex Fells (built by James Braid to Raynor's plans after Raynor died
Rumson (Matt, bet you didn't know that one)
Roselle CC - 9 holes

Raynor had some "involvement" at Hollywood (got paid for something he did)

I still have some thoughts abut Forest Hill - a long time super at the Knoll (liek 20 years) ended up there for about 6 - 7 years - he came from Rock Spring before that, so he knew Banks' work well. He swears there is much Raynor on the course, partially covered,  although they swear Tillinghast. Just on logistics alone it would seem the team of Raynor / Banks might have been involved.

1. just a few miles away is the Branch Brook - which was the site of the original Forest Hill course (they lost their lease there and the county took over the land)

2 just a few miles away, in about the same time period, Bnaks and or Raynor, or both, were working on Essex Fells, Essex County, Rick Spring, the Knoll, Montclair and not that far away were Hackensack and Roselle ..... this was king of "their area"

[Matt_Ward]

George:

I was under the impression that the 3rd and 4th Nines at Montclair were done by him. If I am mistaken thanks for the correction.

Rumson frankly is a bore of a layout in my mind -- just dead flat and really nothng exceptional. Yes, I know Raynor did Morris County and for the Raynor fan club here on GCA few people really mention the layout in Covent Station. Always loved how the course transitions from the first six short holes to the more demandig ones starting with the exceptional 7th !

I am well aware of "Branch Brook" / Hendricks Field reputation. Plenty of people thought they could swoop on down there and pick the pockets of others -- when the reality was the other way around !

[Anton]

Forsgate is a real nice course when the conditions are good.  Seemed like for a while they really struggled out there. 

The Architects Golf Club in Philipsburg, NJ has a real nice Banks hole (designed and built to replicate the Banks style and philosophy of design).  The essentials are there in the impression.  Bowl shaped green with tough pin placements and trench like bunkers (greenside).  Plus 2 trench like bunkers that affect a players depth perception from the tee.  The length is not bad (191yds) with an elevated tee but the target is a Redan style hole that appears to have a very tight putting surface. 

Every year I try to make at least 2 trip up to Architects because I feel the course designers (Opened in: 2001 Designed by: Stephen Kay and Ron Whitten) did a great job of capturing the essence of each historic designer.  They did this without the course feeling like it is a carbon copy of classic golf holes.  they were also able to blend it all together into one seamless piece.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

The subject of Banks in NJ popped into my mind when reading Par Mucci's reminiscence of the public "Essex County West" course which I am unfamiliar with and asked Pat if it still existed. A google search of Essex county Public courses resulted in a trove of Bank's work and I am guessing that the "Hendricks Field" course is the one that Pat remembers playing.

Montclair has 3 nines by Donald Ross and one by Banks. Not too difficult to figure out which is the Banks nine but it begins to the far left of the clubhouse. The first hole is a left hand dogleg downhill par 4 to a classic punchbowl green.

Yes I have played Hackensack but would not say I was bowled over. A very fine golf course but subtle compared to the nine holes at Montclair or even Forsgate. Great cigars available in the men's locker room, however.

I had an opportunity to play Essex County this fall and had to decline due to a conflict and am sorry I did. I have heard the recent renovations there are well worth seeing.

Now I am keen to see the Essex County Public work that Banks was involved with.

[George_Bahto]

Malcolm: the Essex County Country Club was originally a 36-hole course. In later years they operated the "West" course as a public access course in order to help fund the East course's membership.

They later sold the course to the NJ County of Essex (a bit comfusing - one is a club, the other a county in NJ). That course is now called Francis Byrne and is just below the East course. The course is just a shadow of what it was planned and even to what it was when played it. It has been shortened and lots of bunkers removed in order to speed up play etc...   RIP - it was a grand course (I played over it for 17 years)

The Park Commission course is not worth looking at in my opinion unless the buried elephants are still in the green - otherwise a nothing muni

[Doug Braunsdorf]

George,

  I didn't know Rumson was Raynor; I was always of the understanding it was HH Barker.  (here we go again...)

Also, I know Roselle is Raynor; what do you find are the reasons for the divergence in the appearance vs. the traditional "Raynor" course? 

Thank you

DRB

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

George,

Thanks! I google mapped Essex County CC and I see precisely what you are saying. I won't miss my next opportunity I have to play the private east portion of the property.

My grandfather belonged to Riviera Country Club in Coral Gables, FL which maintained 18 holes of an original 36 hole complex of Donald Ross golf next to the old Biltmore Hotel. The Hotel was converted into a hospital during World War II and the 18 holes closest to the Hotel were public and pretty run down at the time.

Lately the city of Coral Gables restored the Hotel and golf course and hired a management company to run the property. Looks like they did a nice job.

[JNC Lyon]

The subject of Banks in NJ popped into my mind when reading Par Mucci's reminiscence of the public "Essex County West" course which I am unfamiliar with and asked Pat if it still existed. A google search of Essex county Public courses resulted in a trove of Bank's work and I am guessing that the "Hendricks Field" course is the one that Pat remembers playing.

Montclair has 3 nines by Donald Ross and one by Banks. Not too difficult to figure out which is the Banks nine but it begins to the far left of the clubhouse. The first hole is a left hand dogleg downhill par 4 to a classic punchbowl green.

Yes I have played Hackensack but would not say I was bowled over. A very fine golf course but subtle compared to the nine holes at Montclair or even Forsgate. Great cigars available in the men's locker room, however.

I had an opportunity to play Essex County this fall and had to decline due to a conflict and am sorry I did. I have heard the recent renovations there are well worth seeing.

Now I am keen to see the Essex County Public work that Banks was involved with.

Malcolm,

How recently have you played Hackensack? It is improving constantly, with new bunkering on 3, 11, and 13 completed in the last couple of years.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

JNC,

My last round at Hackensack was almost 10 years ago. It sounds like I need to get back there.

[JNC Lyon]

Malcolm,

Definitely.  The club has made many big changes in the past few years.  From my understanding, it's a totally different and vastly improved golf course now.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Too bad about the former East Course / Francis Bryne.

It was one helluva layout years ago -- the county has done a decent job in keeping it playable but so much of the design ingredients were either softened, removed or outright neglected.

It clearly has much to offer but because of its present ownership it's highly unlikely to make a move similar to the one you have been involved with at The Knoll / West.

[Richard Hetzel]

Although I have only had the pleasure of playing 1 Banks course, Hackensack, it was one of the top 3 courses I played last summer out of 71 new golf courses. An EXCELLENT round of golf! Great course, and I am sure it will only continue to improve as they are in the process of restoring it. Here are few teaser pics from my round with Bill Brightly back in June.

[JNC Lyon]

Thanks for the pictures Rich.  That Biarritz is a real gem, no?

[Matt_Ward]

JNC:

You should see what Stephen Kay did with the 17th at Forsgate. Goes a good bit beyond what you see at Hackensack and I say that not as slight to the Oradell-based course - more of plug for what was done at the Monroe Twsp course.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

This is the greatest forum!

I have just gone back and am reading about the renovations that have been going on at Hackensack from Richard Hetzels's post this past summer and am goggle eyed.

I am embarrassed to be so out of touch.

My earlier perceived deficiencies of bunker depth are being remediated! Yes!!! My descriptions of "subtle" do not apply any longer.

Great job Hackensack!

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

And my apologies to the rest of you for throwing out a thread that has been so well better covered just recently.

Next time I will search the forum before rashly posting something so redundant.

How many yards is the Biarritz at Hackensack? Looks splendid!

[JNC Lyon]

Malcolm,

The Biarritz is about 235-240 yards to the back tier from the tips.  When I played there in the fall, I hit a solid three-wood that landed on the front tier, ran through the swale, rolled up to the very top of the slope short of the back plateau, paused, and then rolled back down.  It was agonizing to watch from the tee, but it was great fun nonetheless.

The 3rd's genius is its location in the routing.  Banks found great locations for all short holes at Hackensack, particularly the Biarritz (gently downhill), the Short (downhill with a drop-off and long view behind), and the Redan (along a right-to-left sloping hillside).  He chose a perfect spot for an elevated at the Biarritz third, which allows the golfer a full view of the grand green.

It's very easy to fall out of date with renovations these days.  Clubs like Hackensack are making changes gradually over a few years, so a few years can make a huge different.  Two years ago, Hackensack had just re-established the front half of the brilliant Biarritz green without the bunkering.  Now, the hole is the highlight of the layout. 

[Richard Hetzel]

JNC, I hit a perfectly straight shot onto the front portion of that green. Into the swale, up the hill and it rolled back down. Pin was cut, waaaay back left. Instant 3 putt.

Great hole.

Here are few more pics, see renovation in deep bunker on #11 (I think).

[Joe Bausch]

Larger version of the 3rd green at Hackensack:

[Bill Brightly]

Larger version of the 3rd green at Hackensack:

Man, I am hoping we lost all those trees behind the green this winter... We lost a few two years ago when I was Grounds Chair.  It is a very steep drop off behind the green, and while it would not quite be a skyline green, the lack of a backdrop would definitely add to the drama.


And Matt Ward is correct, Forsgate's Biarritz has deeper bunkers and a deeper swale, as well as more movement on the green. Both require (full, lofted) drivers for 80% of the field if playing the proper tees. However, I can get to the back with a low running shot that lands short of the swale (wish I knew how to do it consistantly...)