News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


jim_lewis

Update on Cherokee Plantation
« on: February 06, 2002, 03:08:16 PM »
Earlier this week I made a return trip to Cherokee Plantation to checkout the changes that have been made to the course since I was last there in March, 2000 (about a month prior to the Shell WWOG match between Duval and Els).  I wish to clear up a few misconceptions and questions about the club and course that have been posted here over the past year or so.

First, about the club.  The club is one of several ultra-expensive clubs founded by Peter de Savary.  It is located on a 300 year-old, four thousand acre plantation south and west of Charleston, SC.  In addition to golf (a recent addition) the club features an incredible antebellum club/guest house, hunting, shooting, and horseback riding.  In the beginning, initiation (buy-in) was $1million and the objective was to have 75 “owners” (members).  The price tag is now $1.9 million and they currently have about 12 owners. Their new target is 25 members and they really only want to break even financially. Annual dues are $175K, but that entitles members to unlimited visits and guests at no additional charges, heck of a deal. Many on this DG are offended by expensive clubs consisting of wealthy members. For those, this club represents everything you hate.

Now, about the course.  The routing and most other elements of the design were done by Donald Steel, and most of the greens were designed by his associate, Tom Mackenzie.
When it opened the course was a pretty severe test, even for strong players. Duval and Els were nearly embarrassed there.  The greens were only medium in size and the edges sloped off dramatically similar to Pinehurst #2. On top of that, the green speeds were too fast for the contours and slopes.  The rough near the tee shot landing areas was deep and severe. A tee shot that was just off the fairway could result in a lost ball or a nearly impossible shot out of deep rough and around a large speciman oak tree.  The ninth hole was too long for a par 4 and too short for a par 5.  There was no place to locate a good members tee in the wetlands on #5. In short, the course was too severe for the membership and even tour players.  

Over the past two summers, several changes have been made that addressed most of the problems mentioned above.  Most of the changes were proposed by the pro and the superintendent and approved or modified by Tom Mackenzie. At no time has the course been closed but they did have some temporary greens during the summer, when they have almost no play. The modifications include:

1.  Several greens have been softened a little, usually by      reducing the severity of the run-off slopes on one side. They now have more pin positions, but the greens are still very
demanding and are the primary feature of the course. Speeds are now kept below 9 ½ because of the dramatic contours.  On most holes there is at least one sizable bail-out area.

2. The deepest/toughest rough has been cut back a few yards in several places allowing players who miss the fairway by only a few yards to find their ball and having some
chance at recovery.

3. Twelve new ladies tees have been added to allow an option of playing a 5086 yd course.

4. The nines have been reversed allowing only a short walk from the practice area to the first tee.

5. A new medal tee has been added to the 18th hole (formerly #9) to make it an excellent par 5 finishing hole. Members now play from the old medal tee.  This makes the course par 72 at 6963 (medal) and 6437 (member) yards. Also a new members tee has been  added to #14 making it a much better hole for members.

Bottom line, I think this is an outstanding course. I liked it before and much more now. I think it will be even better after they modify a few more greens over the next two summers. The greens are still awesome, but more playable, and the 35 bunkers are all well positioned (with a purpose) and beautifully designed.

Unfortunately, most players will never get to see the course. They are currently not open to raters, but will reconsider after they complete some more changes. I do not think that thechanges thus far are so much a reflection on the original design so much as a recognition of the golfing skills of the members. It was not built to handle tournament calibre players, but it could.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

JakaB

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2002, 03:21:10 PM »
Jim,

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2002, 03:24:43 PM »
Jim Lewis:

Thanks for your courageous, full disclosure report.  It doesn't sound like many GCAers will be joining the club any time soon (myself included), but it does sound like an interesting project to study.  I'd certainly enjoy seeing a before and after view while also hearing from the architect and developer about their thinking each step along the way.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Richard_Goodale

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2002, 03:51:46 PM »
Tim et. al.

I know the archie (Tom McK) and will probably see him again in August.  Want me to see if he's interested in some sort of GCA seminar/do next time he's in SC?

Cheers

Rich
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2002, 06:49:45 PM »
Rich,

I do think the golf course part of Jim Lewis' report is very interesting.  It would be great to hear more about the details.

Beyond that, Charleston would make a good site for a GCA fall outing.  After Nebraska in 2002, maybe a visit to Strantz's latest in Charleston (name escapes me), Cherokee and perhaps a run at the Ocean course in 2003.

That's starting to sound pretty good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

spdb1

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2002, 07:51:53 PM »
I hope the pro didn't screw with those greens too much. I have never been to Cherokee, but I do know that Steele (and assoc.) builds some of the most interesting greens around. However, I did hear that the ones at CP were particularly severe.

I thought his greens at Carnegie Abbey (sister club to Cherokee) were very interesting, and the type you seldom see from other modern archs. If I remember correctly, Doak called the contouring of Redtail's greens some of the best done in his lifetime (doak's, not steele's).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2002, 07:58:16 PM »
I used to think that an international network of about a dozen clubs catering only to those with F you money would work.  Not only can they afford to keep out the riff-raff, they can price to create a barrier from the middle-class, upper-middle class, affluent, nouveau riche, and white-shoes.  

It is easy to feel animosity toward any group that doesn't want you to be a part of it, but I respect what they are doing even if I'll only be able to "play" it vicariously through people like Crusty.

Thanks for the update.  It is one of those courses where I've always wondered what's going on inside the walls.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2002, 08:03:43 PM »
Tim,

Bulls Bay GC is the new Strantz one you were talking about.  And it is definitely worth the trip see a detailed post I did on it back on Jan 13 here (I think it is back on like page 10 now).  Good stuff.

Turboe

ps Jordan did it again to Cleveland the other night.  Had to hurt!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

George Pazin

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2002, 08:39:27 PM »
Jim -

What do you think of the contours of the greens relative to other courses you've played? Were they really that much more severe before alterations that changes were warranted?

I think if I built a course like this that was just for fun for me & my buddies, I'd want some of the wildest greens around. Why bother with softer greens so that you can score better - is score really that much of a concern when you've had that kind of success in life? I'd want to check out the most imaginative greens around - I'd certainly be sneaking onto NGLA to see what all the fuss is about on the first green!!

What I saw on Shell's WWofG with Els & Duval didn't look that crazy to me, but obviously TV tends to flatten things.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

RJ_Daley

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2002, 09:39:31 PM »
From a golf course architecture and design project, this post leaves me with several questions as to the quality of the job done there in the first place.  Presumably one designs a course of this nature for a special client and a very focused membership, after a very pointed meeting of the minds as to what is desired by that client and golfing capabilities of that elite membership.  

First off, to hype it all up, they have a sort of 'grand closing to the world' by giving a glimpse of it to the public via television through a SWWOG featuring two of the very best players, after which it will become a cloistured enclave of that segment of society that needs their extreem privacy from the other 99.999999% of us.  Then it is suggested after the match that it was so difficult as to 'nearly embarrass' even these high quality of tournament pro players.  Not withstanding the fact that the elite membership won't ever be elite players that could come close to competing with the likes of Duval and Els.  So right off the bat, what is the correlation of of a design that is so difficult, with folks that will be the ultimate end users?  

Then we are treated with a laundry list of course re-construction remodelling changes necessary to get this course in the type of design and 'maintenance meld' that would allow the 'elite' membership to actually play it.  Softening greens, relocating tees, shortening holes, etc., doesn't sound to me like they got their money's worth.  Whose fault is it, the membership that isn't satisfied with a tough course they may have ordered up in the first place, or the archie for giving it to them, regardless of whether they asked for it? :-/

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2002, 06:01:27 AM »
Even the most left leaning of people (not pointing any fingers Dick just making a general statement) should be able to understand that whatever your thoughts on how that fictitious CEO got his money.

The fact that he throws it around willy-nilly on expensive renovations to his exclusive club is actually a good thing if you are upset about how he made the money.  Because (and this is where you loose most liberals) guess what the guy who runs the dozer to remake some fairway mounding gets paid part of that same money when he gets a paycheck for his work.  And now instead of it being in Mr. CEO's pocket that same dollar is in Larry Lunchbox's pocket and is probably on the way to the Publix supermarket to buy food for his family.  So everyone should rejoice that the CEO is good enough or dumb enough to spend all that money and get it back in the economic pool.

Sorry for the brief political commentary and lesson in economics, but I am just getting sick and tired of the ENRONisms that are vogue right now.  Someone needs to throw a penalty flag for piling on the general public.  Again Dick not directed at you, it just has been driving me nuts how everyone in all media outlets is jumping into the fight after the fight is done to kick the carcas while it is down, and short of yelling at the TV this was the only forum.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

RJ_Daley

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2002, 09:08:07 AM »

I don't know who makes up the 12 members of the plantation.  They could all be wealthy sports jocks (like Dan Marino), or wealthy industrialists that responsibly run their enterprises as good corporate citizens.  It is just that in the original post, a point is made to state extravagent numbers and comment that this club is designed to represent everything that is revolting about such ostintatiousness.  

Somehow I take that as 'in your face' sort of sentiments.

I do think we need a fellow like TR again...  :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

jim_lewis

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2002, 12:54:01 PM »
I was reluctant to include information about the club, membership, price tag, etc. in my initial post about Cherokee because I was afraid that it would take the conversation away from the main event, which is the golf course. I only did so because some who were aware that I had been to Cherokee Plantation asked me specific questions and because the place is so unique that it is hard to ignore the setting for the course. I knew that there would be some who are fascinated by the club and others who would be offended by a playground for the super-rich.  Frankly, I will not comment on the club further, since what I really care about is the golf course.

I am one of the course’s biggest fans. I liked it when I played it two years ago, and I like it more now. There are some who thought the course was too difficult before. That includes at least two prominent regulars on this DG, David Duval, Ernie Els, and probably most of the members (especially their wives!).  Their complaints were that the greens were too severely sloped and too fast;  the rough was so deep and thick and near the fairways that a wayward shot left no chance of recovery; that the course was too long for average lady; and that the greens were so small and hole locations so limited that the course did not vary enough from day to day. I will reluctantly admit that there is some validity in those complaints.  If you can imagine Pnehurst #2 with smaller greens and deep “lost-ball” rough crowding the landing areas, you have a pretty good idea of what the course was like. During the Shell event Duval and Els actually played some holes from the member’s tees.

I don’t know why they built such a tough course considering their membership. The important thing is that they have the good sense and the money to address those issues.

All changes have been approved by the architect (s).  The course is still very demanding and the greens are some of the best and most contoured I have seen. They have reduced the green speed to accommodate the slopes. Those greens that have been “softened” now have more usable hole locations, which allows a member who visits for a week or so to be faced with different options each day depending on the hole location. The course has not been shortened, except that ladies tees have been added to allow the weaker lady player to have an appropriate set of tees. In fact, the course has been lengthened. The 14th hole plays 449yds from the medal tee, which is fronted by a wetland. Previously, the member’s tee was forward of the wetlands and played at only 339yds. After some clever negotiations with the environmental regulators, they were able to build a new member’s tee at 379yds making it a much better hole for the members.  Number 18 (formerly #9) was monster par four at 474/428 yds with serious rough on the left and a pond on the right. The green sloped severely to the right so that a long iron hitting the right half of the green might runoff into the pond. A shot favoring the left side was no bargain either because of a bunker at the left front. Missing the green left presented a very difficult chip to a green that ran toward the pond. The hole was so tough that Els and Duval played it from the member’s tees. They added a new medal tee at 515 yds, moved the members to the 474yd tee, and cut back the severe rough a few yards on the left of the landing area.  In addition, they raised the right side of the green just a little so that a pretty decent approach shot is less likely to wind up rolling off the green and into the pond. It is now a good, but still demanding, finishing hole.

Frankly, I don’t care who did, when, or why. The changes have made a good course better.
Check out my motto to the left of this post!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Ran Morrissett

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2002, 01:02:38 PM »
Peter de Savary told me how proud he was that Cherokee Plantation is not just a golf club, and without a doubt, the spa, boating, hunting, and fishing activities on offer are superb. And of course, the Plantation house itself is in a world class league all its own.

My question is suppose Cheorkee Plantation was "just" a golf club and that the course could have been routed along the curving waterway - how much better do you think the course would have been, if at all?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

jim_lewis

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2002, 01:15:08 PM »
Ran:

You talking to me?

I presume the "curving waterway" you are referring to is the Combahee River. To answer your question, I don't know. I am better at evaluating what is than what might have been. I will add an observation that when a course is built adjacent to a body of water, you sometimes see some convaluted, forced routings as a result of zeal to maximize water front holes. Number 16 at Bandon Dunes is the best (worst) example I can think of. I like the fact that most of Cherokee Plantation is routed over high ground so that drainage is not a problem. I also admire a architect/owner who has the restraint not to force holes un-naturally to water.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Ran Morrissett

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2002, 01:40:10 PM »
Jim,  Is the young-ish green keeper still there? I have forgotten his name at the moment but he had as good a grasp on fast and firm as anyone I've ever met. He had the place smoking fast when we were there - what a great find he was for de Savary!

How is the club handling the 200 yard (plus?) distances between the (old) 4th green and 5th tee and the 8th green and 9th tee? Do they still shuttle people with golf carts?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

jim_lewis

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2002, 01:56:53 PM »
Ran:

Yes and Yes.  I chatted briefly with the young super, but I am embarrassed that I can not recall his name either.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Tim_Weiman

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2002, 07:16:56 PM »
Daryl/Dick:

Growing up in the oil industry, specifically the supply and trading segment of the business, I should probably be a little bit tired of all the Enronisms.  Especially since the media has totally botched reporting about Enron's influence on energy policy.

But, I'm not.  My former employer (British Petroleum) was one of three companies who bid for Enron's energy trading business.  BP bid all of $25 million, essentially the value of Enron's computer system to support trading activity.  Why in the world anyone on Wall Street ever thought the business was worth $50-80 billion, I haven't a clue!

A classic failure of the best and the brightest.

Anyway, I'm not offended by Jim Lewis' report on Cherokee Plantation, no matter what it costs to join.  The project management part of the story seems a lot more interesting to me.

How did they manage to miss the mark by such a wide margin on the first go around?  What kind of oversight was provided during the design and construction phase?  What were the architect's marching orders?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

RJ_Daley

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2002, 12:17:02 AM »
The previous comments appearing in this space have been deleted by the writer inorder to foster peace and harmony between the social classes.   I do wish we had a man like TR to scrutinize certain corporate finance and influence peddling practices that are occuring, however...;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Fred Ruttenberg

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2002, 04:55:59 AM »
I played Cherokee in November with my son-in-law and it was one of my most memorable golf experiences. The feeling is not that of a golf club but of a small resort where golf is one component. We were the only people on the golf course that day. The course was in excellant condition. There did not seem to have been a great deal of earth movement and the course fit well into the surrounding terrain. Green speed was 9-10 but played reasonably not like a fast day at Pine Valley.

My overall impression was similat to the Carnegie Club =a fine but not great golf course.but a spetacular experience

Cherokee Plantation was designed as a private retreat for a wealthy few. Not much different the the original concept the Shadow Creek or several one person clubs-only on a grander overall scale. Each time such a project is built it should be applauded. Not only is there a fine new course that we can aspire to play, but new fodder for this site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2002, 09:04:48 AM »
I'm sorry I missed this topic until now!

But reading through it (and I will read it again more carefully) I have to say I feel it's one of the most significant topics on Golfclubatlas for a whole variety of reasons!

And some of those reasons would include the extreme exclusivity of the club and also the entire undertaking of it. Another reason, and one that should be the most fascinating and also the subject that Golflclubatlas should concentrate on the most is the architecture of the course and its original "maintenance meld" that combined with the design, as explained by Jim Lewis.

This should be interesting to us since it appears to be a superlative case study in the outside edge or limit, if you will, of one end of the spectrum of both architecture and set-up (maintenance) that says a ton of interesting things about so many of the factors we discuss on this site--and many times we discuss it only in theory! It sounds to me as if Cherokee Plantation's golf course, at least originally, may have presented even the best golfer, in fact not in theory, many of those factors we discuss! And for that reason it should be extremely fascinating to us!

For posting this topic, particularly the analysis of the golf course, but also the background and make-up of the club itself, we should be very grateful to Jim Lewis!

But here are some of the other reasons I believe this topic is one of Golfclubatlas's most significant! And I'm fairly certain that many of GCA's contributors will hate me for mentioning these things!

The first and most important reason is it shows how we react to such a place as Cherokee Plantation that is without doubt unusual. We clearly have the opportunity to analyze a significant golf course and particularly the exact and detailed reasons of the effects of its apparent difficulty, challenge or severity on two of the world's top players. That alone is a most interesting subject as it is simply not something we ever see much of these days! A course that came close to embarrasing two of the world's best players!?. What more interesting subject could we ask for to study and analyze the architectural (and maintenance) reasons why? We have (had) the opportunity to analyze why and in detail!

But what do we do instead? We start to criticize those who put up the money to build the place! Instead of concentrating on the architecture and its related subjects we launch immediately into a social and economic commentary and critique of the people who built the place!

Whatever "value" or "worth" Cherokee Plantation is to those who put up the money and belong to it is certainly no concern of mine. The fact that a membership in the club maybe worth 100 times more to them than to me is of no concern either! And I hardly think that an unusual, extravagant and yes even ostentatious project like this one is going to ultimately upset the economics of golf or golf course architecture either. I have no idea of the fees and profit Steele might have made on this project but I'm quite certain he realizes that if it was excessive he likely will not be able to carry that fee and profit into his next project--wherever that may be!

So, I think we have or did have a unique opportunity to analyze a golf course, that even if it did miss the mark as to its "playability" for its members, is nevertheless a fascinating study in design just because of what Els and Duval were faced with there as well as how the club is tweaking its course back to reasonable playability for its members! That to me is a most fascinating subject to study and discuss--architecturally--and maintenance-wise! The very first question we should have been asking and discussing on this topic is, "Was it totally over the top architecturally and maintenance-wise and, if so, why? What if we came to the conclusion on close analysis that it was not?? That would be increbibly fascinating and instructive for many of the things we like to concern ourselves with in the study and discussion of architecture.

And the last reason is things like commentary on the analogies to the Enron situation is not going to help us be able to discuss this fascinating architectural subjectl! It's going to do the opposite for us! It's going to shut off--again--from us, any discussion with the club or anyone involved with it, like it has with so many of the other subject clubs we've treated on here in this manner!

Ultimately, this really hurts Golfclubatlas itself. Not getting access to play a course like Cherokee is probably simply an American reality! But it may not be so for getting access from the club or those involved with it to discuss it's architecture (and maybe even the project itself). That would certainly be my hope for this GCA discussion group with any golf club that has something about it that is interesting to the subject and discussion of architecture.

I don't think we really need to be accusatory and condemning of some of the people involved in some of these clubs like the Merions or Cherokees, simply for our own good. If we critique  or even condemn some of the things about their course's  architecture, and then leave it at that, that's much more acceptable and understandable, certainly to them!

I shouldn't even cite names but just look at Ran Morrissett's posts in this topic! He steered clear of the social and economic commentary posts and tried to steer this subject back to the point of this website. So did Turboe, it seems!

Personally, I think we should learn something in how best to contribute from guys like Tom MacWood and Mike Cirba who although they very well may have strong feelings about architecture, and do state them, at least they keep their feelings focused on architecture! We should too--certainly including me! It's a lot better for all of us to do that and it's much better for this site too!

I realize this post won't sit well with plenty of contributors who will get pissed at me--and maybe I deserve it! And I'm in no way denying that what RJ said is true; "But, we still have the freedom to be revolted and express such if we choose..."

Of course we have that freedom of expression on here--on the Internet! But let's see if we can't use that freedom of expression better to make this website better and more expansive, more far-reaching too--not less so!

Let's criticize the hell out of architecture if it seems to deserve it, but after the architecture the criticism should begin to end.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2002, 02:05:54 PM »
Tom, I can assure you that I do value the discussion here on GCA as it relates to architecture.  But, sometimes architecture and its relationship to socio-economic status are so intertwined with golf course development that it is hard not to make a comment on trends or developments in the arena as they take place.  This has been historically so.  I agree with you that Cherokee Plantation is a sort of sentinal project that ought to be analysed.  I just went beyond talking about the golf course architecture (as a matter of the architect's original planning beyond a design that was functional for its members) and commented on what such a development represented to me on the socio-economic scale, as a matter of my opinion, which is worth about as much as anyone else's... ::)

You will find that I deleted much of the commentary in my above 3 posts that read more like passages of the "Muckrakers" in an effort to divorce those issues from the design standpoint.  

Although, while CP might be a significant project on some levels, it probably won't be an enduring conversation because it won't be experienced by enough people to make any difference in the broad body of knowledge about GCA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

SteveC

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2002, 06:47:18 PM »
I played CP last year, 1st week of April. We played with the pro - a wonderful guy. I apologized for being 20 minutes late (it is out in the boondocks), and he replied, "No problem...the next group doesn't go off 'til tomorrow." Incredible. CP isn't just about golf - it's about the "total package," of which golf is just one component.

Having said that, the golf is superb. Challenging holes, pretty holes, a wide variety of shot selections, greens that were tough and fast, sometimes completely wicked, and absolutely fun - reminded me very much of some of NGLA's for contours and devilishness. I found the course to have more character all around than Steele's Skibo Castle track (excepting Skibo's 16-17-18, which ooze with character). True, most folks won't ever lay eyes on the place, let alone play it, but for those who do make it and who enjoy the peripheral amenities, it doesn't get any better than CP.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

michael nuzzo

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2002, 10:15:20 PM »
why wouldn't they have just grown the greens to an 8 and widen the fairways?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Update on Cherokee Plantation
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2002, 04:50:29 AM »
"No problem, the next group doesn't go off until tomorrow!"

That's one of the most hilarious remarks I ever heard in golf!!

I think Atlantic City might be trying to copy that policy. The comment reminds me of one I heard about Bidermann. An  Englishman was told he could play Bidermann when in the states so he called one day and asked and was told: "Sorry the course is closed today as Mrs DuPont will be playing (alone)!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tags: