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Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2011, 11:07:51 AM »
It's always humorous hearing about or watching members of a national club with no tee times enduring predictable  hour + waits with guests on holiday weekends because their club "doesn't have tee times"
150 type  A's with three guests can't all tee off at 8 am on a Saturday

3 guests on a weekend morning? I didn't realise that was allowed in the US, it's not at a lot of places in the UK.

1 guest per Member at the weekend is norm here.
Most UK courses would allow 3 guests with a member on a weekend.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

jeffwarne

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Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2011, 11:22:01 AM »
I made one comment about the "no tee time" system before but I will pile on with another one. While money appears to be the overriding factor for many people today if there's a close second (and probably first for many) it is time. Why force a local member into a crapshoot when it comes to time?  A tee time allows for someone to approximately plan for their time at the club. The first come, first served model does not.

I think no tee times is the best thing goin for a national club with only a few hundred members and an unpopulated course, but for local courses unless you are going to have a very small membership I just don't see the value. Time is important, and it is why many are playing less or giving up the game today.


It's always humorous hearing about or watching members of a national club with no tee times enduring predictable  hour + waits with guests on holiday weekends because their club "doesn't have tee times"
150 type  A's with three guests can't all tee off at 8 am on a Saturday

I've been on maybe 6 of these trips (let's call it 18 days) in my life and can only recall waiting an hour one of those days.  I was part of an unaccompanied foursome on that particular trip and was just fortunate to be there.  Also, time is a less valuable commodity to me on one of these trips than when at home because my entire day is going to be spent at the course anyway.  An hour delay isn't going to prevent me from playing 36 holes, or sometimes 54, because the crowd thins out significantly in the afternoon and evening.

Which national clubs have you visited and experienced the "predictable" hour long wait?

It doesn't matter which club.
For the guest who is "fortunate to be there", waiting an hour is not a big deal.
For the member, who told his wife he'd be home at 12:30 to take the kids to the beach, having had a tee time so he could've planned it would've been helpful.
I've seen this repeated at multiple well known clubs who pride themselves on "no tee times"
If they are truly not needed, one can just turn up and slot into one; but if they are needed at certain peak times, they can alleviate a lot of angst and hand wringing.
Only very experienced staff aware of such patters can massage this and inform members of the appropriate time to arrive and avoid such debacles.
This is of course truer of clubs in Holiday or remote locations, less so in suburbia.
I know of a member of a very highly spoken of club on here who very recently(on a Friday) waited an hour to tee off before ultimately starting on the back, played the nine in 2 1/2 hours because the groups went off inappropriately spaced, and ended up quitting after 9 when they were told that there was another hour wait to make the turn onto #1.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2011, 11:33:21 AM »
What a whine ass, the club would be better off without him.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2011, 11:35:54 AM »
What a whine ass, the club would be better off without him.

actually that's a good description of this individual (just hate it when they have a point)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2011, 11:39:43 AM »
I am a current member at a local high-end tennis club. I paid about $2000 (X2) for initiation (my entire family) and pay about $200/month in membership fees which end up being about $350/month when you include clinics and lessons and whatnot. The family as a whole use the facility at least 2 to 3 times a week.

I have a hard time justifying joining a golf club membership that costs more that I will use less.

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2011, 11:45:27 AM »
I am a current member at a local high-end tennis club. I paid about $2000 (X2) for initiation (my entire family) and pay about $200/month in membership fees which end up being about $350/month when you include clinics and lessons and whatnot. The family as a whole use the facility at least 2 to 3 times a week.

I have a hard time justifying joining a golf club membership that costs more that I will use less.

Of course you can't.  I bought a lake house one summer and soon learned that you can't have it all.  Enjoy tennis with your family.

I sincerely wish I enjoyed spending time with my family more than my friends.  I just don't and that is good for golf.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2011, 11:48:29 AM »
Some of the great things i've read on this post:

1. $2.1 million to operate based on a stable dues line
2. No Initiation Fee
3. No tee times
4. Liberal Guest Policy
5. No F&B/Locker/Misc fees.

These are great and IMHO the $2.1 operations line has a great chance of achieveing success.  HOWEVER, No tee times and 350 full dues paying playing members will not work here.  Too mny members for the available peak tee time slots on Friday, saturday, Sunday & Holidays.

The membership number we use for for tee time implementation is 200-225, as a certain percentage of those members just aren't available to play every weekend.  Additionally, during peak times, no guests are allowed to get these members out and play a squickly as possible.

Now do the math - $2.1 million / 225 members = $9,333 annually for the privilage of driving up, pulling on your shoes and teeing off.


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2011, 11:50:33 AM »
It's always humorous hearing about or watching members of a national club with no tee times enduring predictable  hour + waits with guests on holiday weekends because their club "doesn't have tee times"
150 type  A's with three guests can't all tee off at 8 am on a Saturday

3 guests on a weekend morning? I didn't realise that was allowed in the US, it's not at a lot of places in the UK.

1 guest per Member at the weekend is norm here.
Most UK courses would allow 3 guests with a member on a weekend.
Not on a Saturday morning if there's a medal on, they won't, which at most clubs is most weekends.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2011, 11:58:58 AM »
It would not work in DFW.  Could not be built to support those operating numbers, and it is doubtful that 350 members could be found that would pay $6,000 annually for the existing courses needing members.

There is one club trying a similar tact, but with a substantial initiation fee that's been heading downward progressively.  I suspect that it will eventually compromise its upfront fee with a combination of higher membership levels, lower monthly dues (to achieve volume), and outside play.

I marvel that the Carolina Club is able to command a relatively high initiation fee.  Speaks highly of the course, its management, the membership, and the market.  If I was committed to the area long-term, I'd be a candidate.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2011, 12:01:25 PM »
200-225 members equates to less than 15 fourballs on the course Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. Why not create midweek memberships to bring in some income when the club is empty?

Cave Nil Vino

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2011, 12:06:42 PM »
It's always humorous hearing about or watching members of a national club with no tee times enduring predictable  hour + waits with guests on holiday weekends because their club "doesn't have tee times"
150 type  A's with three guests can't all tee off at 8 am on a Saturday

3 guests on a weekend morning? I didn't realise that was allowed in the US, it's not at a lot of places in the UK.

1 guest per Member at the weekend is norm here.
Most UK courses would allow 3 guests with a member on a weekend.
Not on a Saturday morning if there's a medal on, they won't, which at most clubs is most weekends.
Misreading posts again Mark - Read again and check the small print!
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2011, 12:08:13 PM »
Lou is correct in the fact that you can't find 350 members to pay $500/month.  What do you have to make to be able to afford that nut, $150,000/year?  How many guys out there making that kind of money aren't already in debt up to their eyeballs, have a wife up their ass and house equity in the toilet?  Golf is a luxury and you are selling a Walmart product.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2011, 12:31:50 PM »
Sorry, Adrian, you'll have to explain.  I've read it again and I can't see my error.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Bruce Katona

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Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2011, 12:36:59 PM »
Mark: Exactly correct in your assessment of Tuesday-Thursday play, which here equates to the ladies day play and corportae outings to generate additional guest fee income.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2011, 12:52:13 PM »
It's always humorous hearing about or watching members of a national club with no tee times enduring predictable  hour + waits with guests on holiday weekends because their club "doesn't have tee times"
150 type  A's with three guests can't all tee off at 8 am on a Saturday

3 guests on a weekend morning? I didn't realise that was allowed in the US, it's not at a lot of places in the UK.

1 guest per Member at the weekend is norm here.
Most UK courses would allow 3 guests with a member on a weekend.
Not on a Saturday morning if there's a medal on, they won't, which at most clubs is most weekends.
The discussion was about 1 guest or 3 guests. Clearly if there is a competition most clubs will restrict any guest, but competitions rarely run the whole weekend, so there will be weekend space. On a seperate point most UK golf clubs take weekend green fees.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2011, 12:55:13 PM »
What is this about a club needing members to "be invested"? Whatever happened to doing a great job and taking care of customer retention that way? The successful public courses all know how to do that, why not the swanky private clubs?

The initiation fee / lifetime membership investment makes sense under a non-profit scheme. If a bunch of guys and girls get together and decide to build and run their own golf course, merely for the joy of it. In that case the members are actually the owners of the place and the initiation fee they put up is used directly in financing construction of the course.

But if I am not the owner, then I am the customer. Investment is for business owners, customers pay dues and receive services.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2011, 12:57:18 PM »
While it sounds nice, the flaw in Chris's dream club is two-fold. 1) it assumes that the facility is free and 2) doesn't take into account the Owner.  It sounds like a Semi-Private, non-equity membership but without the public play (which subsidizes the member by putting some cash into the owner's pocket).

In doing Pro-Formas for courses, you have to be able to make it on Fri-Sun play, Mon-Thurs is hopefully break-even. Perhaps this is Private Clubs have 36-holes.  The incremental operational cost of the 2nd 18 is less than the benefit of twice the number of members.  All your fixed overhead costs are the same for 18 or 36.

As for the ongoing debate over tee times, whoever mentioned what I call "the partial tee sheet" wins.  It's the best of both worlds. Whether it's every other time blank or 1/3, 2/5 etc. depends on how the individual club operates.  However, those who need the security of a tee time are served as are those who are more "spur-of-the-moment" guys.  Plus, if you pack a tee sheet and things slow down, you have no wiggle room, but, with "Starter" times interspersed, things can get smoothed out rather easily.

Finally, Mucci's right about having skin in the game.  However, instead of an "Initation Fee", I think referring to it as a "Share" is a better way of looking at it.  Each new member buys a Share. He may sell it when he leaves, either to another, or back to the club (at - say 75% of the going rate).  Letting the Course deteriorate is against ones interest as it will adversely effect the value of your Share.
Coasting is a downhill process

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2011, 01:00:36 PM »
What is this about a club needing members to "be invested"? Whatever happened to doing a great job and taking care of customer retention that way? The successful public courses all know how to do that, why not the swanky private clubs?

The initiation fee / lifetime membership investment makes sense under a non-profit scheme. If a bunch of guys and girls get together and decide to build and run their own golf course, merely for the joy of it. In that case the members are actually the owners of the place and the initiation fee they put up is used directly in financing construction of the course.

But if I am not the owner, then I am the customer. Investment is for business owners, customers pay dues and receive services.

Ulrich

Members who pay initiation fees are more loyal and take better care of the course.  What so many of you of the Walmart mentality do not understand is that membership in a club is a two way street.  It ain't like Sam's Club where you go in a pick up huge jugs of mustard just so you don't have to go back again until your dog is dry.  At a true club you all buy regular size mustards and share after properly storing the container so some guy doesn't get stuck with that awful half water half mustard first squirt.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 01:03:26 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Mike Hendren

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Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #68 on: February 11, 2011, 01:12:09 PM »
While I don't know the Atlanta market, I can't help but thinking a solid, well-maintained golf course could generate 40,000 rounds annually at an average of $52.50 for total revenue of $2.1 million.  Perhaps you lose some stability in the income stream, but there's more price and cost elasticity in such a model, not to mention the potential upside if the weather's decent in the winter. - another few thousand rounds is nice gravy.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2011, 01:16:45 PM »
Chris,

The underlying premise is good: a gold-centered club without the incredibly costly expense of mainatining a huge (often old) clubhouse and extensive full dining operation. It might work if such a club is already existance (and you don't have to buy the land.) But you probably could never take over an existing course and start this now, because getting 250-300 new members would be next to impossible.

While there may well be 300 guys who would like to join, many of those have already come up with the cash to join a country club, or are saving their money to join one that they have in mind. Plus, many struggling clubs are offering "dues only" deals, so you would be in competition for the same guys. I think this model would produce a very transient membership, guys looking to get off public courses, but waiting until they can join a full country club.

Clubs with no tee times get away with it because they have such a wide range of demographics. The young guys show up first thing in morning (with set foursomes,) tee off between 7 and 8, then sprint to the soccer game. Middle aged or older guys play after that, and a significant percentage play mixed after lunch (for reasons beyond my comprehension.) The model you suggest would seem to attract a much higher precenatge of younger guys who need to play early.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2011, 01:20:25 PM »
While I don't know the Atlanta market, I can't help but thinking a solid, well-maintained golf course could generate 40,000 rounds annually at an average of $52.50 for total revenue of $2.1 million.  Perhaps you lose some stability in the income stream, but there's more price and cost elasticity in such a model, not to mention the potential upside if the weather's decent in the winter. - another few thousand rounds is nice gravy.

Mike
How about this model: Membership dues $50 per month, Round fee $30, Range balls* $5, Cart fee* $25, Caddie* $50. Drink and eat as much as you like (regular prices). 1000 members, 40,000 rounds.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2011, 04:41:39 PM »
Quote
What so many of you of the Walmart mentality do not understand is that membership in a club is a two way street.

Sharing is something I can do only with stuff that I own. Give me ownership of the golf course and I'll share it with my fellow owners. But if you see me as a customer and want to make a profit off me, you'd better provide value for money or else I'll leave. Or, in the case of initiation fees, never arrive in the first place. Initiation fees and for-profit schemes don't match.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2011, 04:52:56 PM »
3 pages of responses--i'd say it works.

Key is quality of golf course and price point vs. other clubs...if you are lower than mkt (and course is above mkt), then golfers will percieve value.

Run a few scratch-only tournaments and give em away--get some good players to join and maybe this will help generate the perception of a "players club"

I dont think you win the family or women's vote though...they are looking for a pool, a dining room, a card game and lunch, etc.  that stuff will take you away from your model.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2011, 04:55:31 PM »
Ulrich I do see where you are coming from when you talk of 'for profit' courses and initiation fees not going hand in hand. The problem is a bit like this...... as in another thread the fundamentals of developing a golf course dont really work... herin lies the clue...lets say me you and another want to build a golf course and lets say the land costs a million, the course costs a million and the clubhouse costs a million and we are ALL equal partners..... realistically we want a 8% yield on our money or theres no point.
Its hard to make 240,000 a year out of golf, its not impossible, but hard, you can be going along okay then hit some bad weather, one bad month can cost you a 100,000.
Its reasonable to make 120,000 a year.
If you can get 30-40% of your 1,000,000 investment back from initiation fees, your cushioned a bit and the return on golf starts to make sense. I have part-owned 4 golf courses and always made money, but its a single digit return. In this climate some might say thats good, although in this climate there isn't really much profit at all because everyone is lowering their numbers.
Making money out of golf is not easy, but a few dicky calls and by golly you can really mess it up and do your money.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would a Membership like this work?
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2011, 07:57:54 PM »
Adrian,

wouldn't it work out better if you had more members? The German Golf Federation reckons that an 18 hole course can cater to up to 1400 members.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)