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Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Southview
« Reply #125 on: August 23, 2011, 10:53:48 AM »
Southview

My favorite part of the Oak Ridge member guest was actually a rain delay.  I spent about an hour chatting with a former member and 19 time club champion who retired to Palm Springs many years ago.  His views on course architecture are the polar opposite of the generally prevailing views here.  He likes courses to be manicured, visible, to clearly define the shot demands, to punish poor shots and to provide a reasonable putt to a player that hits the green.  As you might guess, he is not a fan of Stone Eagle but is a huge fan of the Reserve.

     I enjoyed the discussion because it is sometimes nice to hear a strong counterpoint to the views expressed on this site.  It is easy to forget that a significant portion of the population cares about fairness and thinks of the game as a game, rather than an adventure through nature.
 
    It is possible that such viewpoints are uneducated but more likely they are a strongly held preference.

The consequence of the rain delay was that we were late meeting Jeff Shelman at his club – Southview in South St. Paul.  Southview is squeezed on an extraordinarily small piece of land.  As a result, its holes generally run back and forth and are pretty narrow.  These pictures are largely from this website and used with permission:
http://7minutemiles.com/wp-g2
Narrow Hole:

Picture of island par 3 15th.  It is listed as the “signature hole” on the club’s website but such a designation sells the course woefully short:

Despite these limitations, Southview is fun to play.  Its par fives are very short – between 470-500 yards.  Its features some very interesting and significantly sloped greens.    One can play well if he puts the tee ball in play.  Otherwise you get to work on the punch shot under trees and your patience.
I fell into the latter category and got the opportunity to contribute to Jeff and John’s pocketbook. 



Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Winsong Farm
« Reply #126 on: August 23, 2011, 10:55:28 AM »
Windsong Farm
I got my revenge in the morning by taking John to Windsong Farm.  We played from its 6700 yard tees which normally are very manageable but seemed extraordinarily long given the fatigue from the week as well as the overnight rain and the dew that lingered on a humid still day.  Fortunately for me the fairways are extraordinarily wide, I had a slight advantage over John in length and John refused to take his handicap strokes.

My favorite aspect of Windsong are its par 3’s.  So these photos will emphasize those holes.

Nonetheless, we start with the short par four 3rd:



The 4th – 180-200 yards with a gigantic green.  The silo has been hit when the pin is in the back:



The demanding par 3 7th.  The hole is a short to midiron to a very narrow green that slopes towards the water just enough to make a bailout an almost certain bogey.



A typical example of green surrounds at Windsong Farm (the 8th from back left) – many options around the greens but no cozy rough to keep a wayward approach close:



The 10th –
It can be anything from a hybrid to a 6 iron for me.  Green slopes pretty severely away from the bunker on the left.



Approach to the short par five 12th.  Even I can reach this green on a good day.  The bunker on the right is well short of the green so a 3 wood that hits just right of the bunker winds up on the fringe.



Approach to the short par 4 13th.  The toughest pin is on the right with misplayed shots rolling 20 yards away from the green.  If you bail out to the center, you face a downhill putt with disaster lurking if you are too aggressive:



The 16th – can be anything from a 6 iron to a 3 wood for me depending on the wind, the tee placement and my game.  The clubhouse is in the background:



We trudged our way around the course and finished the marathon.  I took John to the airport, went to a Twins game and then fell asleep at about 6 in the evening.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 03:50:36 PM by Jason Topp »

Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Minnesota Wrap up
« Reply #127 on: August 23, 2011, 10:56:38 AM »
While this trip proved a bit ambitious, particularly given some of the worst heat and humidity experienced in Minnesota in the last decade, I enjoyed giving John a sampling of Minnesota golf.  Minnesota does not have any courses that will compete for top 20 in the US.  Nonetheless, the depth and quality of the courses is extraordinary.  Some people whom I talked with described this tour as one reviewing the “greatest hits”  in the state.  I would describe it more akin to a “31 Flavors” tour that did not necessarily hit the best courses but provided a sampling of the variety the state has to offer – from classic to modern, short to brutish and from a variety of architects with a heavy Ross emphasis.  Another tour including a sampling of the following courses would be as good or better in terms of quality and variety:

Quarry at Giant’s Ridge/ Wilderness at Fortune Bay - Brauer
Golden Valley/Rochester – Tillinghast
Somerset/ Minnesota Valley – Raynor
Woodhill/Interlachen/Minneapolis – Ross (and others)
Hazeltine – Rees Jones
North Oaks (Thompson)
Spring Hill (Fazio)
Stoneridge (Weed)
The Classic/Deacon’s Lodge (Hoffman/Palmer)

PCCraig

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Minnesota Wrap up
« Reply #128 on: August 23, 2011, 11:10:06 AM »
While this trip proved a bit ambitious, particularly given some of the worst heat and humidity experienced in Minnesota in the last decade, I enjoyed giving John a sampling of Minnesota golf.  Minnesota does not have any courses that will compete for top 20 in the US.  Nonetheless, the depth and quality of the courses is extraordinary.  Some people whom I talked with described this tour as one reviewing the “greatest hits”  in the state.  I would describe it more akin to a “31 Flavors” tour that did not necessarily hit the best courses but provided a sampling of the variety the state has to offer – from classic to modern, short to brutish and from a variety of architects with a heavy Ross emphasis.  Another tour including a sampling of the following courses would be as good or better in terms of quality and variety:

Quarry at Giant’s Ridge/ Wilderness at Fortune Bay - Brauer
Golden Valley/Rochester – Tillinghast
Somerset/ Minnesota Valley – Raynor
Woodhill/Interlachen/Minneapolis – Ross (and others)
Hazeltine – Rees Jones
North Oaks (Thompson)
Spring Hill (Fazio)
Stoneridge (Weed)
The Classic/Deacon’s Lodge (Hoffman/Palmer)


Jason,

I agree fully. As a newcomer to Minnesota this year, it's been great fun visiting so many golf courses in a somewhat small radius with interesting design pedigrees. Jeff Shelman has asked me a couple times this year after playing a particular course (I'm paraphrasing) "Did you think it was good, how do you think it stacks up with courses in Chicago?" and I've said many times that the courses here not only stack up, but below Chicago Golf and Shoreacres, it could be stronger.

I might start a thread...
H.P.S.

Jeff Shelman

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Good news on the photo of No. 15 at Southview: That picture is a few years old and most of the trees/growth behind the green is gone.

And the first photo is No. 18, the par 5 finisher up the hill.

Mark Johnson

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I really love the juxtaposition of Minikahda and WBL

So very different courses though built in the same era.   I much prefer WBL because of the terrain and there are just a couple holes (#3, #7, #11)  at Minikahda that bothers me.

Though I know it would never happen, I would love to see Minikahda steal a page from WBL and put the Back tees on 18 on the other side of excelsior.

Dan Kelly

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... there are just a couple holes (#3, #7, #11)  at Minikahda that bothers me.

What bother you about those holes?

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Rick Shefchik

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Good news on the photo of No. 15 at Southview: That picture is a few years old and most of the trees/growth behind the green is gone.

And the first photo is No. 18, the par 5 finisher up the hill.

Jeff, I didn't recognize the photo of #18 at first. I don't think the hole plays nearly as narrow as the photo makes it look.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Mark Johnson

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... there are just a couple holes (#3, #7, #11)  at Minikahda that bothers me.

What bother you about those holes?



my bigger issues are with 7 and 11;  3 irks me a little less


I dont like the line on 7 at all.  The target is off another green and none of the bunkers really come into play.

11 is just an awkward shot for any pin on the left side.   I dont like par 3s where you have to work a ball around a tree.

On 3, i am not sure what the architect is trying to get me to do.   The front is heavily guarded but the back isn't steep enough.  Also, one of the few holes where there are several trees which dont come into it.

Jason Topp

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... there are just a couple holes (#3, #7, #11)  at Minikahda that bothers me.

What bother you about those holes?



my bigger issues are with 7 and 11;  3 irks me a little less


I dont like the line on 7 at all.  The target is off another green and none of the bunkers really come into play.

11 is just an awkward shot for any pin on the left side.   I dont like par 3s where you have to work a ball around a tree.

On 3, i am not sure what the architect is trying to get me to do.   The front is heavily guarded but the back isn't steep enough.  Also, one of the few holes where there are several trees which dont come into it.
Mark:

I do not understand any of these concerns.

7:

I see no downside in aiming at a green off the tee.  The carry over the bunker on 7 is 260 yards according to Bing Maps which makes carrying the thing not even a consideration for me.  You must hit the ball a mile for that bunker to be irrelevant.  The bunker 70 yards short is at the exact layup spot I would otherwise choose and the severe slope on the front bunker requires someone going for the greeen in two to be real precise.

11:  Maybe I have not played the hole enough but I have never noticed a tree encroaching on the line of play.  I will look at that when I play there this fall.

3.  The back is pretty darn steep.  Unless there are conditioning issues I do not see why trees out of the line of play matter. 


Mark Johnson

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... there are just a couple holes (#3, #7, #11)  at Minikahda that bothers me.

What bother you about those holes?



my bigger issues are with 7 and 11;  3 irks me a little less


I dont like the line on 7 at all.  The target is off another green and none of the bunkers really come into play.

11 is just an awkward shot for any pin on the left side.   I dont like par 3s where you have to work a ball around a tree.

On 3, i am not sure what the architect is trying to get me to do.   The front is heavily guarded but the back isn't steep enough.  Also, one of the few holes where there are several trees which dont come into it.
Mark:

I do not understand any of these concerns.

7:

I see no downside in aiming at a green off the tee.  The carry over the bunker on 7 is 260 yards according to Bing Maps which makes carrying the thing not even a consideration for me.  You must hit the ball a mile for that bunker to be irrelevant.  The bunker 70 yards short is at the exact layup spot I would otherwise choose and the severe slope on the front bunker requires someone going for the greeen in two to be real precise.

11:  Maybe I have not played the hole enough but I have never noticed a tree encroaching on the line of play.  I will look at that when I play there this fall.

3.  The back is pretty darn steep.  Unless there are conditioning issues I do not see why trees out of the line of play matter. 



When I played a member told me it was 235 to carry and I just measured it on Bluegolf and got 240 from the back of back box.   I can tell you that I carry my driver 260-270 and can carry this with 20+ yards to spare.   I actually think this hole plays better as a long par 4 from the middle tees. (which is what is occasionaly done when it hosts tourneys)

I guess we disagree on whether another green (or tee box) for that matter should be directly in a line of play.   Personally, I dont think it ever should be and I cant think of any all-time great course which require you to do this.

Re: 3, i just think it looks awkward.  I have much bigger issues with the other 2 holes,    However, I am not sure how the tree removal project missed these.

Dan Kelly

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Mark:

I do not understand any of these concerns.

7:

I see no downside in aiming at a green off the tee.  The carry over the bunker on 7 is 260 yards according to Bing Maps which makes carrying the thing not even a consideration for me.  You must hit the ball a mile for that bunker to be irrelevant.  The bunker 70 yards short is at the exact layup spot I would otherwise choose and the severe slope on the front bunker requires someone going for the greeen in two to be real precise.

11:  Maybe I have not played the hole enough but I have never noticed a tree encroaching on the line of play.  I will look at that when I play there this fall.

3.  The back is pretty darn steep.  Unless there are conditioning issues I do not see why trees out of the line of play matter. 



I'm with Jason on all three counts.

7. Mark -- Do you *always* "carry" your driver 260 to 270? If you mis-hit it, doesn't that bunker come into play? It sure comes into play for 98 percent of all golfers. And once you carry that bunker, isn't that second shot awfully interesting?

11. Where is the tree encroaching on the line of play? What sort of "encroachment" are you talking about? One that forces you to hit a straight ball or some given bend in the ball to get close to the hole? I don't see how that's a problem.

3. The front is pretty darn steep, too. I missed left in Round 1 of the Senior Amateur last summer. Pin was down front. Chipped up about 20 feet above the hole, expecting the ball to dive down to the right. It managed to find a flattish spot at the right edge of the green -- and the putt I had (screaming sweeper to the left) was the fastest putt I've ever had to execute. Just gave it the wee-est tap I could, and it went 12, 15 feet past.

I think 3 and 7 are wonderful holes, and 11 is just fine.

I thought they took out every tree they needed to take out.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Doug Wright

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Mark:

I do not understand any of these concerns.

7:

I see no downside in aiming at a green off the tee.  The carry over the bunker on 7 is 260 yards according to Bing Maps which makes carrying the thing not even a consideration for me.  You must hit the ball a mile for that bunker to be irrelevant.  The bunker 70 yards short is at the exact layup spot I would otherwise choose and the severe slope on the front bunker requires someone going for the greeen in two to be real precise.

11:  Maybe I have not played the hole enough but I have never noticed a tree encroaching on the line of play.  I will look at that when I play there this fall.

3.  The back is pretty darn steep.  Unless there are conditioning issues I do not see why trees out of the line of play matter. 



I'm with Jason on all three counts.

7. Mark -- Do you *always* "carry" your driver 260 to 270? If you mis-hit it, doesn't that bunker come into play? It sure comes into play for 98 percent of all golfers. And once you carry that bunker, isn't that second shot awfully interesting?

11. Where is the tree encroaching on the line of play? What sort of "encroachment" are you talking about? One that forces you to hit a straight ball or some given bend in the ball to get close to the hole? I don't see how that's a problem.

3. The front is pretty darn steep, too. I missed left in Round 1 of the Senior Amateur last summer. Pin was down front. Chipped up about 20 feet above the hole, expecting the ball to dive down to the right. It managed to find a flattish spot at the right edge of the green -- and the putt I had (screaming sweeper to the left) was the fastest putt I've ever had to execute. Just gave it the wee-est tap I could, and it went 12, 15 feet past.

I think 3 and 7 are wonderful holes, and 11 is just fine.

I thought they took out every tree they needed to take out.

I totally agree Dan. I think Minikahda's #3 is one of the best par 3s I've played anywhere. I challenge anyone to find a better greensite than this one. The par 3 11th isn't far behind. What a wonderful and challenging sloped Ross green, only made better by Prichard's expansion in the restoration. I don't think #7 is a  great hole--a rather pedestriam par 5 compared to the 4th or 9th--but the concerns raised about the 7th aren't mine. If you want to find fault with Minikahda, I'd look at the par 3s before and after #7. Both #6 and #8 are out of character with the rest of the course.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Dan Kelly

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I totally agree Dan. I think Minikahda's #3 is one of the best par 3s I've played anywhere. I challenge anyone to find a better greensite than this one. The par 3 11th isn't far behind. What a wonderful and challenging sloped Ross green, only made better by Prichard's expansion in the restoration. I don't think #7 is a  great hole--a rather pedestriam par 5 compared to the 4th or 9th--but the concerns raised about the 7th aren't mine. If you want to find fault with Minikahda, I'd look at the par 3s before and after #7. Both #6 and #8 are out of character with the rest of the course.

Curious, Doug:

You have more experience with Minikahda  than I do -- so I'm asking:

1. Why do you prefer No. 4 to No. 7?

2. What do you mean by "out of character"? I'm not disputing that, but just wondering what you mean by it.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated (139) Tournaments
« Reply #139 on: September 16, 2011, 03:53:12 PM »
Much of my summer this year was spent playing competitive golf..  I subscribe to the notion that there is a big difference between “happy golf” and competitive golf and am drawn to the challenge of trying to post a number like a moth to a light bulb.

The first competitive round of the year featured 33(F) degree temperatures , 25 mile per hour winds and snow flurries.    I got out of the car and voted for cancellation but the motion apparently failed.  My only contribution was to get up and down from a pond for par to halve a hole.  Our squad – former perennial powers in the event – was crushed in the first round by a team that was crushed in the second round.  I hope relegation is available to our squad next year.

I next got my butt kicked in qualifiers for state tournaments.  It was not a good omen when I realized during a windy cold practice round that I could not make it over water to the fairways on a couple of holes from the back tees into the wind. I actually tried to map out wedge shots to the front tees in case I needed them. Fortunately, they moved the tees forward during the event.  Unfortunately, the tee movement did not change my short game.  The second event did not involve forced carries but at least it poured the entire day.

After three rounds in snow, rain, cold and wind, I tried out hot and humid for a match play event.  It felt good for the 18 hole qualifier and even better when my opponent forfieted my first match in the afternoon.  The next morning, I had the misfortune of having an opponent show up – therby depriving me of the title:

 http://p.hostingprod.com/@mpga.net/2011_Match_Play_A.pdf
http://www.mngolf.org/uploads/tanners_brook_results_2.pdf
http://www.mngolf.org/uploads/wapicada_results_2011.pdf
http://p.hostingprod.com/@mpga.net/First_Flight_Braket_Pairings.pdf

   It was now time for my Iowa swing of tournaments.  For me, the highlight of the summer is being introduced on the first tee at the Northwest Amateur in Spencer, Iowa.
 


I have written about the Northwest Amateur before in which I gather with a group of high school friends to try and recapture childhood glory at a venue that we have played many times in the past. This year we were joined by Ben Kodadek who screwed up the mojo of the  trip by showing competence on the course.

http://tournamentresults.igolftheworld.com/IndividualStroke/Results.aspx?IDGolfEvent=3b2f4766-6d6a-43a7-8cdf-af11f0a11e9c&IDTournament=9ad4b2e6-8c52-443f-b10d-e8f1d636e9de&CategoryCode=

Next was the Herman Sani Invitational, which is hosted by Hyperion Field Club outside of Des Moines, IA.  I have played the Sani at times because it includes professionals and is a rare opportunity to play with some old friends that are now club pros.  It is a wonderful event that raises money for a scholarship program.  The course is about 6400 yard Bendelow design with plenty of birdie opportunities and fast sloping greens.

  In the final round I was paired with three kids who played for college teams.  After watching how far they hit the ball, I questioned how these guys could have shot the same score as me in the first round.  I soon got my answer.  The entire course is on the side of a hill.  These guys had a hard time figuring out that the hill would influence the speed of their putts.  If they figure that out, I will never play with them again.

I also got to experience parents following their kids around the course.  When I was a kid only one parent did that.  The father would carry around a lawn chair and sit about a hole ahead.  If you were in the group ahead you would see the father in the trees and then hear a stream of profanity that was not meant to be heard by other humans – let alone children.  We all loved the father but kept our distance when his son was on the course.

Today, it seems like a requirement that any group of kids playing in a tournament bring along a pack of parents following them around like a herd.  In my group, the parents stayed about a half a hole ahead and made the unfortunate decision to stay in the left rough.  The first four holes at Hyperion feature OB tight on the right side.  I have learned over the years that my best play is to aim at the trees left and try and fade it back to the fairway.  The parents stood 60 yards short of their kids tee shot distance but such positioning put them precisely in range for me.  I made one blonde mother jump four holes in a row as my tee shots travelled directly at her without a hint of fade.    

After assuring the mother I was not trying to kill her, I spent much of the remainder of the round conversing with them.  They seemed so old when standing 240 yards away.  Up close, I realized we were about the same age.

Herman Sani Invitational (Aug 12-14):  
http://tournamentresults.igolftheworld.com/IndividualStroke/Results.aspx?IDGolfEvent=0fa1a218-7234-488b-80d9-97b40d425f11&IDTournament=085e1590-314b-420b-a5dd-1da4fb16aa9d&CategoryCode=

The final phase of my tournament year consisted of club championships.  My private club’s tournament featured a field of seven contestants and I finished deep in the also ran division.  Fortunately the club does not post results on the web.

Things turned around for me at my public course, where I managed to play in the final group the second day.  Even though, I gradually faded to finish five behind, it was fun watching an experienced 52 year old fend off charges from two younger challengers who made putts all over the place.  The pro kept a leader board that he would update every 3 holes and drive around the course.  Apparently he did not think much of my play because at the turn he pulled my name off and replaced it with a guy I was beating.   When I questioned the move, he erased the 4th name on the board and left it blank.    

As people finished their rounds, the course gave them carts to follow the final group as it finished.  By the last 3 holes, it felt like we were leading a parade.

It was a nice way to finish a tournament season that started with snow and not being able to make the carry to get to the fairway.

Bunker Hills Club Championship (September 10-11):  

http://www.bhmc.org/eventresults/9_11_2011_9-11-11%20CC%20Winners.pdf

I encourage everyone to find some competition and try their best.  You quickly learn to appreciate how much more difficult the game becomes when your performance will be posted on the internet and many people will look up how you did. Architecture changes when that pretty fescue surrounding a bunker suddenly carries with it the possibility of the march of shame back to the location of your last shot.  Water that never seemed in play suddenly looms as if it creeps out to the center of the fairway.  Bland courses suddenly seem very interesting.

 Even on my darkest days I feel better about an ugly number than the people with “NC”, “WD” or  “NS” next to their name.  I always learn something even if I do not like the lesson.
 
Now, however, I am ready for some “happy golf.”  

« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 04:03:47 PM by Jason Topp »

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated (139) Tournaments
« Reply #140 on: September 17, 2011, 02:06:35 PM »
I completely agree with you, Jason -- if you want to know what kind of a golfer you really are, tee it up in a tournament. I've found out what kind of a golfer I am.

I always enjoyed the Ben Hogan quote, uttered when someone wanted him to play a strictly social round: "I don't play jolly golf."
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Dan Kelly

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated (139) Tournaments
« Reply #141 on: September 17, 2011, 06:11:11 PM »

I encourage everyone to find some competition and try their best.  You quickly learn to appreciate how much more difficult the game becomes when your performance will be posted on the internet and many people will look up how you did.

Amen, brother. I've played in the MN Senior the past two years not because I had any chance of making the cut (I didn't), but to remind myself how hard golf is -- a lesson that comes in really handy when I watch my daughter's tournaments. And, honestly, as poorly as I've played (sometimes VERY poorly), I took some pleasure in beating a few guys with lower handicaps than mine.

Oh, and by the way: Not that many people ever look up your scores!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated (142) St. George
« Reply #142 on: October 06, 2011, 10:41:30 AM »
In late September, I visited St. George, Utah with a group of 16 of widely varying handicaps.  We played five rounds in three days and enjoyed nearly perfect desert weather.  None of the courses are a threat to crack anyone’s top 100, but rack rates were largely in the $50-$60 range at that time of year and the ever changing dramatic views compete with those from any golf course I have experienced.

My course descriptions are in order of preference.  The pictures are pulled from the web.  I will supplement with my own pictures as soon as I can find the chord to connect my camera to my computer.

Sand Hollow

 http://www.sandhollowresort.com/
http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/sandhollow.php
http://lasvegas.twoguyswhogolf.com/reviews/sandhollow.html

This John Fought design and features a “championship” 18 and a “links” 9.  I played both and found the Links 9 the strongest part of the course.

The Links 9 is set on a relatively gentle slope that runs right to left and downhill moving away from the first tee and uphill with a left to right slope returning.  The routing is not purely out and back – it includes a switchback at the far end of the course.  It features wide fairways and gigantic greens with a number of interesting humps and hollows.  The two par threes were strong – one a 200 yard hole to a green sitting up and the second a short par 3 over rugged land to a green that looked small but is actually giant.  There was also a strong par four that looked intimidating off the tee but was long enough to reward an aggressive line.  It was the only course of those we played designed for walking.  The bunker style is rugged and the cost could not be beat - $15 walking.  
Those used to real links golf will quickly recognize the shortcomings of attempting the concept here.  The grass was a bit sticky and the greens too soft to provide a true links experience.  Nonetheless, the challenges associated with the general slope of the land and the endless variety of available pin placements makes this nine my first priority on a return visit.

The Championship 18 is the more popular course and appeared to be one of the busiest in the area.  The entire course is routed to allow for a dramatic cliffside stretch from the 12th to the 15th.  The fairways are extremely wide and most of the interest comes from a large number of fairway bunkers that are deep and real hazards.  

The par 3's are memorable.  Here is the reverse redan 11th:


And the dramatic 15th:


The course features two interesting driveable par 4s.  We played the 5th from 306 yards.  It is downhill with a wide open fairway that squeezes between a bunker and desert near the green.  I pulled out driver and hit on what I thought was a safe line.  My opponent pulled out an iron.  I thought about deriding his manliness but did not do so.  When we got to our shots, he had an 80 yard wedge and I had a 45 yard bunker shot.  The fairway squeezed at exactly the right point.  He made birdie and I lost with a par.

We played the 13th from a forward tee at around 260 yards.  The green is benched into the cliffside with what looks like oblivion left.  A hollow on that side provides more margin for error than it first appears and provides enough temptation to make an aggressive play a reasonable option:



If you are going to play one course in St. George, I recommend 27 at Sand Hollow.    Then - enjoy the view at sunset:


« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 03:06:22 PM by Jason Topp »

Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Post 142 - St. George, UT
« Reply #143 on: October 06, 2011, 02:55:30 PM »
I still have not figured out my pictures so I borrowed these from a fellow traveller.

Kokepelli

http://kokopelliut.com/
http://lasvegas.twoguyswhogolf.com/reviews/kokopelli.html

I hope this course can make it financially.  It is in the middle of nowhere but one of the most unique settings for golf I have ever experienced.  It is on the road to Zion National Park and commands expansive views of the park and an unspoiled natural landscape that differs markedly from the red rocks of St. George.  

The golf course itself is quite demanding but interesting for all levels of play.  I could not find the name of the architect.  It appears to have been inspired by those Bud Chapman paintings of impossible golf holes.  It plays quite long at 6659 from the regular (white) tees and while the 4400 foot elevation helps distance off the tee, the cooler temperatures seemed to counteract any elevation effect on the day we played.

The front nine runs up and back down the side of a mountain.  At the high point one plays a very good 99 yard par 3 that features a gigantic natural waterfall that does not come into play but is a refreshing reminder of the inadequacy of artificial versions so common in Palm Springs.  




The back nine is on flatter ground and is probably the stronger design.  A dramatic deep canyon runs through a number of holes and was used in a variety of ways throughout the nine – a dramatic par three, as the inside hazard on a long par four and as a carry hazard on the adjoining short par five first.  

Par 3 11th – dramatic hole with green sloping left to right.  This picture is from a forward tee.


Back tee on 12 – a long gentle dogleg right following the contour of the canyon:


16 Green – 566 uphill yards to a cape type green:


While the greens on this course were in good shape the fairways were terrible.  Hopefully those issues can be resolved.  Kokopelli would be my second recommendation in the area, possibly first if the conditioning issues were resolved.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 02:57:06 PM by Jason Topp »

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Post 142 - St. George, UT
« Reply #144 on: October 06, 2011, 05:09:18 PM »
Looks like fun...but I would definitely put this course in the penal category.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Post 142 - St. George, UT
« Reply #145 on: October 06, 2011, 05:22:38 PM »
Looks like fun...but I would definitely put this course in the penal category.

I assume your note is on Kokopelli.  The photos are a bit deceiving on that front.  I found the course to be quite playable and relatively strategic.  Other courses from the trip were more penal.

The fairways on the course are generally quite wide.  The forced carries are generally pretty short and largely exist on shorter par threes.  For example, the first par three pictured is only 99 yards from the white tees (140 from the 7700 yard tees) with a giant green.  The 11th provides an interesting choice between taking the pin head on or using a slope left of the green to feed the ball back.  The long par 4 12th has a pretty wide fairway on an angle from the tee and provides a number of alternate lines off the tee.  I would guess the forced carry is less than 100 yards from the back 3 markers.  Other holes have more width. 

John Mayhugh

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Post 142 - St. George, UT
« Reply #146 on: October 07, 2011, 01:12:50 PM »
Thanks for the pics.  I've been to St. George once, but didn't see either of these courses.  From the photos, I would never have guessed the second course was there.   Have you played Coral Canyon?

Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Post 142 - St. George, UT
« Reply #147 on: October 08, 2011, 01:20:52 AM »
Thanks for the pics.  I've been to St. George once, but didn't see either of these courses.  From the photos, I would never have guessed the second course was there.   Have you played Coral Canyon?
Yes - we played there.  I need to get around to writing it up.

Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Post 142 - St. George, UT
« Reply #148 on: October 13, 2011, 11:31:23 AM »
Still struggling with the pictures on the other courses but I thought I would add the write ups before I lose them:

Coral Canyon
http://www.coralcanyongolf.com/index.php
http://lasvegas.twoguyswhogolf.com/reviews/coralcanyon.html
http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/coralcanyon.php

When I first played turf restricted desert courses in 1985, I found the experience largely miserable.  Trying to stop a duck hook on islands of firm turf is a recipe for a long day.  I was used to playing Iowa courses that were basically grassed over corn fields with single lines of trees planted to separate holes.  I went from someone that broke 80 a decent percentage of time to someone who was a threat to shoot a hundred on any outing.  I found my pocket being picked by guys that hit 180 yard slices but knew where the ball was going.    For a prideful 20 year old ego such an experience leaves bruises.

Once I realized the world would not end if I sucked at golf, I learned to embrace the challenge of target golf.  I realized it was more mental than physical and that if I played more conservatively I could actually shoot a decent score.  Although I moved back to the Midwest, I looked forward to visits to my parents in order to enjoy the weather and to face the challenge of keeping the ball out of the desert.

In the intervening years architects learned how to make desert courses more enjoyable for the average player.  While I generally applaud such efforts, it does come at a cost.  The thrill of negotiating a tough challenge disappears.  Instead most modern desert courses provide a beautiful view but a relatively standard golf experience.  

Whether by design, neglect or necessity Coral Canyon is a throwback.  Forced carries exist on nearly every hole.  On several holes one stood on the tee and could not see a fairway.  The 15th defies all modern requirements.  From the tees we played one has a choice of a 230 yard carry or laying up with a midiron on a 450 yard par four.  The second shot is over yet another wash that is well short of the green but forces a second layup for those that chose the conservative option off the tee.

I really enjoyed coral canyon but am not sure others would love the course.
Entrada at Snow Mountain

http://www.golfentrada.com/
http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/entrada.php

The best aspect of this resort is the accommodations.  We stayed here and their condos were gigantic, well furnished and had beautiful views.  The rate was similar to rates I have paid for a budget motel at other destinations.  View from the back: [picture pending]

As for the golf - this Johnny Miller design is beautiful and quite demanding.  I am not sure I have played another Miller course but I can understand why his designs are criticized by many. The fairways were tight without being interesting.  The greens were designed to reward extremely precise iron play with significant consequences for missing.  Thus, this appeared to my eye to be a course that should be played conservatively the entire way around.  

The most unique holes are through black lava on the back nine but are so awkward that I doubt I would like a regular dose of them.  
In short, this course was not my favorite but I would return again.

Ledges of St. George

http://www.ledges.com/
http://lasvegas.twoguyswhogolf.com/reviews/ledges.html
http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/ledges.php

The front nine of this course must be considered an accomplishment.  How it would be possible to come up with an utterly boring design in such a dramatic part of the world is beyond my comprehension.  The fairways are wide, dead flat and devoid of interest.  As an added bonus, the architect felt it was necessary to add these hideous mounds on the fringes of the course.  [pircture pending]

The back nine is better but not strong enough to make up for the sins of the front.  The 16th is a par five that needs to be blown up and rebuilt.  The aggressive option involves a long carry over bunkers that then tumbles downhill through a fairway into a ravine.  Layup is how I would play the hole next time.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 11:36:21 AM by Jason Topp »

Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Post 149 - Biloxi
« Reply #149 on: October 24, 2011, 11:00:45 AM »
Relentless destruction of vanity . . . .

The thought keeps going through my head at 4 am as I am driving through some desolate stretch of Interstate 10 near the Mississippi/Louisiana border.

Perhaps the thought is caused by my dwindling gas supply and the apparently dim prospect of finding a gas station in a swamp.

Perhaps it is based on my experiences in the Casinos in Biloxi, where bright lights beckon but mathematical odds collect.  

Perhaps it was from all the hurricane destruction that dominates the area.

Perhaps it is from the status of the golf course industry – a small symptom of a worldwide orgy of vanity being punished by the fundamental rule of economics that in order to create true wealth one must produce something of value.

Perhaps it is a lack of sleep.

Actually – I know the cause of my pensive mood.  My golf game stunk.  When one gets his butt kicked over five rounds of golf against this guy – seen hitting from the drop area:




And this guy – seen working his way through the rough by hacking the ball repeatedly halfway to the hole:





One knows his enjoyment of the game should never be dependent on the quality of his play.
Fortunately, I learned this lesson long ago and had a terrific time racing around golf courses in the Biloxi area with Sam Morrow and Cory Lewis.  
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 11:05:06 AM by Jason Topp »

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