[Dave Givnish]

Maintenance costs - figure about $1.4M to $2.2M per course if you include water for private courses in Scottsdale.  Water costs are all over the map depending on the source.  Few can use well water anymore.  Most buy gray water and Central AZ Project water.  A few unfortunate courses are paying full retail for drinking water in Phoenix.  CAP water has a lot of minerals in it, and requires extra filtration, which equates to higher costs.

I have played most of the Arizona courses in Matt's list except for the Tucson courses.  I think that putting Estancia in the top 5 is a bit of a stretch.  It's pretty and generally well conditioned, but it's not really a very challenging course and requires little thought off the tee.   I guess that is what one means by a "member's course". 

I will admit a decided preference for courses where walking is easy and encouraged.  As a result, the Desert Mountain collection, other than Outlaw, and Silverleaf fall in my opinion.  Silverleaf's conditions have been much improved with their new super and they may start getting more love as a result.  Whisper Rock's Lower Course is very good - probably top 5 in the state - but not #1. The Upper Course has too many similar holes on the back nine to rank higher than about 20 in Matt's list.  Now that the members own DM, it will be interesting to see what will happen to their conditions moving forward.

I'll admit that I don't get Desert Highlands.  Maybe part of that is because I usually play there in a shotgun where it's rare that I'd start on the first hole. The real estate is too up close and personal.  It has taken quite a while to get their greens in good playing condition since they were re-grassed.  I'm also not a big fan of forced carries because of the pressure that they put on high handicap players and short hitters, and DH has a number of them.

Grayhawk Raptor was really wet when I played there two weeks ago and it took almost 5 1/2 hours to play.  Maybe the cold weather and some of the wind we've had will dry it out some.

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

If Estancia isn't top five - where would you place it ?

There are plenty of good holes on the layout and it's hard to beat the perfect location it has nearest to Pinnacle Peak.

In regards to the walking issue -- I don't see carts as a problem -- provided the rides don't make up the main essence when there.

Glad to hear about Silverleaf -- gets a scant amt of attention from way too many people.

In regards to Desert Highlands -- the issue Dave is that DH changed the nature of what design could be given the limited amt of land that could be used for golf usage. Yes, there are some carries of note but options do remain. You'd have to point out to me the holes you see as being unfair.

Curious to see your personal top ten for the state.

By the way WR Lower is my #1 for the reasons that provides sufficient challenge for the top tier player -- that's why they are there -- but there's enough options and room for the lesser player. Great greensites and often times tough to decipher one's landing areas from a number of the teepads which are flush with the fairways. When you say "probably" top 5 -- you are reaching in my mind. #1 can vary with person to person but WR / Lower is no less than a cinch top five.

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

Please realize -- my courses are listed in groups of five -- WR is not #1 because it's listed there. I don't see how a definitive #1 can be listed that can be satisfactory to all -- that why the groupings of courses. WR / Lower for me is a top five desert layout when held against the rest -- if you don't see that -- that's fine. Just list for me your personal all-desert top five.

thanks ...

[Jim Franklin]

Nice list Matt. I have played most of the ones you list and I have Stone Canyon in my Top 5 with Wolf Creek moving to the next 5. I also liked The Quarry Course in my Top 10.

You mention the greensites at Whisper Rock and you are right, they do offer some challenge and variety from your typical desert layout. I also enjoyed the visually deceptive tee shots. Desert Forest would also be in my Top 10.

I know Troeger will appreciate this, but Black Mesa is my #1 desert course. I can't wait to play it again.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Hard to define the exact "desert" arena. Like I said earlier I can make a case a place like Red Ledges in Heber City would be included but it's not "pure" desert locale.

Stone Canyon is a fine layout -- goes to show people what Jay Moorish can do without the Weiskopf tag line next to his. In my mind, it's the best Tucson layout - with The Gallery / North and Dove Mtn a couple of steps behind. Only drawback I don't like some of the forced lay-up holes -- believe the 2nd at SC is one of them if memory serves.

Jim, I agree w you 100% on WR -- why the Lower is not rated higher likely is tied to an anti-desert bias. The course is really well done and goes a few steps beyond the likes of what Desert Forest, Desert Highlands and then Desert Mtn have each done. Anyone not including WR / Lower in their overall top 100 needs to open their eyes to what is there.

No doubt Black Mesa is a grand one -- the issue is that few see "no-name' architects as worth their time although Baxter Spann deserves a ton of credit for what was done there. Likely if a second course ever comes to fruition w Doak's involvement then the rightful fanfare will likely happen.

[Sean Leary]

What about Troon CC? Don't hear much about it.

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

Keep in mind this -- I've played a wide sampling of desert courses over the years -- Troon was a fine layout when the benchmark was lower when it first arrived on the scene. When you factor in the range of courses that have entered the picture since then -- plus the wider array of desert style courses that have been added -- Troon just fades from view for me. For others -- it may be really high -- the answer lies in just how many of the other ones I have mentioned have been played.

[Adam Clayman]

Adam:

If you want to understand my placements better -- how bout doing some of your own self-admitted lack of personal hiomework ?

I laugh when people start down the path that somehow something must be amiss.

I have visited the courses as a freelance media member -- in nearly all the cases tied to rating the course in some capacity or in other cases by me simply going to visit them and paying my $$ to play them. Black Mesa is the only facility I introduced the ownership there to a firm in NYC that could help them with their own visibility -- I saw the course as something of real quality and simply passed along a contact to the appropriate person. I don't play a day-to-day role in how they determine their efforts on that front.

Now, that that is done -- can we return to the subject matter at hand ?

By the way -- if people really see Black Mesa as a suspect pick then frankly they don't quality design if it hit their face. Are you suggesting that the comments I have made concerning Black Mesa are inaccurate or fudged ?

Adam, for full disclosure purposes -- what are your ties ? Are you a member of any clubs in which you have made favorable comments? Can you please disclose your role in those areas ? And, by the way, do you lob such questions to other more prominent commentators who also dabble in the golf design consulting arena or is this just selective targeting on your part ?

Yo Dude, Take a chill Pill.

I'm a member of one course and the entirety of my opinion was formulated prior to becoming a member.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

If you don't want to hear the response -- then don't throw the junk.

My opinions of Black Mesa were formulated long before I passed their name around.

Try to realize that people do have honest opinions and simply wish to share them.

[Andy Troeger]

Jim F.,
And I'm at least a little convinced you had some doubts about just how good Black Mesa would be compared to how much I hyped it prior to your visit. The more top level places I play, the more confident I become that Black Mesa can hang with almost anything.

So of course its no surprise that it would be #1 for me as well. My experience is limited to about 1/2 of Matt's list though, so its conceivable something else could challenge it. None of the ones I've played are really that close, however. I'd round out my personal top five with We-Ko-Pa Saguaro, Estancia, Desert Mountain Renegade, and Ritz Carlton Dove Mountain. Southern Highlands in NV would make it, but I really can't call it a desert course.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt- You missed my intent. It was not to disparage and it certainly wasn't about Black Mesa. Since DF is one of the most unique desert courses, especially along lines you are most famous for critiquing, driving demands, I was seriously asking you to explain if other factors were responsible for some questionable placements. Wolf Creek being the most obvious i.e.

I admitted I don't have the dearth of desert course you have, but on the few we have in common, I questioned your placement.


If you would just prefer responses that agree with you, I will abstain.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

Stop wth the nonsense -- my skin is quite comfortable -- very comfortable with disagreement -- when it pertains to the subject at hand. Not the insertion of some underhanded or conflictual bias that would prompt me to rate courses in the way I do. If you wish to disagree with my placement that's fair game and I am frankly eager to hear comments from you and others when it pertains to that.

Adam, I rate courses because of what they provide -- sometimes it's because they clearly provide a vast differential in what their specific design is about. I can relish the driving requirements of as Desert Forest and for what Red Larence did there -- while at the same time also enjoying the quirky edge-of-one's-seat stuff at a place like Wolf Creek. Too many people here on GCA simply have a specific and very narrow comfort zone and they lump all their preferences with that in mind. I see my tastes being a bit wider than that. It doesn't mean mine are better -- it's just that exposure gives me a wider latitude on what is out there. Nothing more -- nothing less.

I understand your quibbles with a place like Wolf Creek -- fine, it's your time and $ on where you play.

Wolf Crreek gets dissed by the classic school of thought people here on GCA. They can readily accept such stuff across the pond but when they return to the States and see a place like Wolf Creek they throw it under the bus as being stupid -- much of it is tied to the cart dimension when playing there. If you have a different placement order feel free to post your listing for public review. I have no issues with holes being poked in mine -- it helps me. But, I do wish people would try to provide a much fuller context on their listing so we avoid just the cherry-picking which invariably often results.

Thanks -- keep your opinions coming.

Andy / Jim:

Black Mesa has gained plenty of respect from the many people who have played it. The real launch point for the facility will be if/when the 2nd course moves forward. Having a Doak design there will only shine more light on the original. Amazingly, Bandon Dunes gained plenty more appreciation when Pac Dunes opened. Frankly, I find BM considerably ahead of the original 18 at bandon -- no doubt it helps to have the Pac Ocean so near and to have a layout like Pac Dunes provide another reason to go to such a remote place.

The Santa Fe area provides a good bit more exposure and fanfare. Likely the joys and greatness of BM will only gain as time moves on and more people see it for what it is. I know I do each time I play it.

[Jim Franklin]

I loved the tranquility of New Mexico so I do hope BM gets that second course. Santa Fe was a very nice town and Albuequerque was pretty cool too. Baltimore has a direct flight there with Southwest so it is an easy trip. I will have to check it out again this summer.

As Adam pointed out, I liked the driving demands at Desert Forest which raises it a bit in my eyes. I also thought the greensites were pretty cool.

[Andy Troeger]

Jim,
Since I know your tastes pretty well, what differentiates the driving demans for you at Desert Forest versus a place like Sahalee that's also very narrow but has a very different type of hazard?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Although you asked of Jim -- maneuvering around desert terrain is a bit easier than having to deal with towering sentinels that blanket the perimeter like you encounter at Sahalee.

Frankly, how the WA-based course was ever rated simply amazes me.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I am trying to think of a better example than Sahalee--I agree with your sentiment. However, I can't think of a single other course rated in the top 100 of any major USA list that has the driving demands of Desert Forest combined with with the penalty for missing. The narrow ones give some recovery options, and the penal ones have wider fairways/corridors. Is there another?

[Adam Clayman]

The genius @ DF is that depending on your distance and shot shape your variance in the result can be quite wide. This is all do to the varied contours presented on the ground. It also gives DF members a large advantage in comps against other clubs. Its also why Philly Mick will go there to work on his driving versus all the other desert courses.  If anyone unfamiliar with DF wants to see something interesting go look at an aerial of the layout. From that you'd assume it's the straightest narrowest test. But in reality plays nothing like it. Truly one of the worlds best desert layouts. Whether you appreciate golden age era courses or not.

[Andy Troeger]

Adam,
Same question to you: can you name a single other course in the top 100 of any major USA list that has the driving demands of Desert Forest combined with the penalty for missing?

I'll give you that there is a fair amount of strategy at DF due to the angles from tees and of the fairways themselves. The contours provide a lot of interest too, but most of it makes a narrow golf course play narrower!

[Jim Franklin]

You miss fairways at Bethpage, Oakmont, Winged Foot and the penalty is severe as well. I agree with Adam that DF requires shaping shots to fit fairways too because of the firmness of the fairways which I liked. You need to pay attention to what you want to do. As for Sahalee, I'll pass.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Some of the FL-courses are quite tight -- because the "effective" width is narrowed because of heavy winds that can blow -- plus the penalties for missing too far to either side can likely result in either OB or H20.

Desert Forest is able to do what it does because the total distance -- from the tips -- I believe is still under 7,000 yards. Coupled with the fact that desert air allows for balls to fly a bit more -- I don't see why players who worry about control can't clubdown as the circumstances warrant.

If DF was 7,400 yards and had the same width pattern -- it would preclude anything but driver being used.

[Adam Clayman]

Andy, Yes, but I'll be accused of being a homer. Truthfully, the width at DF is wider than appears. Unless you listened to the member who didn't want you playing out of the Sonoran. I thought the course allowed players of all "distance off the tee abilities" the option of not trying to get every ounce of distance out of every tee ball. The penalty for missing the ideal spot, on a great course, could just be a less than preferred lie/angle. Not whether you can get on in regulation.

[Matt_Ward]

The AZ golf landscape has clearly evolved over the years.

No doubt you have certain layouts which are quite heavy in the precise area of shotmaking. You also have those which accentuate the penal style and those that provide much more diversity.

Desert Forest is still held in high regard and I do thing it's got plenty of juice left in the tank. But, those who have not played a good number of the more recent newer openings are really missing the main elements which have added a good deal since then. WR being one of them -- especially the Lower 18 there.

[Andy Troeger]

Jim,
I was curious if those would be courses mentioned--I really can't add much since I haven't played them. I still have to wonder, however, if there's a difference between the odds of a lost ball/unplayable lie at Desert Forest versus those others which might lead to chip outs and such things. Or perhaps they are more penal than I realize. I didn't find the desert at DF to be playable at all--if you could chip out or advance the ball on any kind of regular basis I'd take back the vast majority of what I'm saying.

Matt,
Can you be more specific regarding the Florida reference? I've played Sawgrass, Calusa, Concession, and World Woods and none of them were close to as narrow as DF. I've played other courses with similar driving demands to DF, but none are that highly regarded! I do agree that one can dial down at DF, if I ever were to go back I would leave the driver at home.

Adam,
If you have examples you're willing to PM me, I won't mention them here. I'm truthfully curious more than anything, although I appreciate Jim mentioning a few.

[Brian Stewart]

A minor correction.  Desert Forest is 7027 yards from the tips (74.0/148). 

Also, honestly, the only people that have trouble playing shots out of the desert are visitors.  Yes, you do get some impossible lies and have to drop but no more so than your average Midwest course IMO.  I can tell you that I hit three balls in the desert today and made par on 2 of those, double on the other due to an unplayable and a three putt.  If you are a horrible driver of the golf ball you will have trouble there but a few times around the course and even a mediocre driver of the golf ball should have little issue.  Yes, it actually requires you to think off of the tee but isn't that great?  Too many courses require no thought and might as well be a driving range.  I don't have a problem with wide FWs.  I think Old Mac is a place where you can definitely benefit from hitting certain spot and if you want to score the huge FWs there play much smaller. 

Anyway, not really arguing per se but the surrounding desert is just not that bad and often allows for a recovery shot.  Even a good shot to the green.

[Andy Troeger]

Brian,
Totally disagree on your comment regarding Midwest courses. I grew up in Indiana and have lived in New Mexico for the last four years and have played 50+ desert courses. They are TOTALLY different animals. I will never admit to being a great driver of the ball, but on almost all midwest courses I could find my ball and attempt to hit it. Bad drives usually lead to bogeys unless compounded by additional mistakes. Desert golf leads to lost balls and unplayable lies at a far higher rate, whether its Desert Forest or not. My experience with desert courses in general would be that for every three balls in the desert, one is playable, one is unplayable, and one is lost. Some courses are more playable, others worse. My results at DF were worse than that, but I could see some of that just being bad luck.

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