[Gary Slatter]

Jim, good luck with the project.  I think you need basic men's and women's change rooms with at least one shower.  Ideally you should add a porch large enough to accomodate 70/90 golfers - in case of a course emptying thunder storm.  I was atMad River and we built avery small clubhouse which was nice but too small from opening day.
The outdoor BBQ is a great idea.  If the nines don't come back to the clubhouse you'll need an expensive toilet facilty.
Catering can be farmed out, most golfers require some facility = the owners won't mind but any others require it.
I've worked too many courses where we were part of a hotel operation. It was always very difficult the dayswhen the hotel took over the clubhouse for some private affairs.  Lots to consider, good luck.

[Jim Johnson]

Some great thoughts so far, many thanks.

Some things to mention. In all likelihood, I can't envision the course coming back to the clubhouse at the turn, with certain areas of the property off limit to our course designer, so very likely there will be a halfway house/hut somewhere out on the layout, whether it is after 8, 9, 10, 11, whatever.

In keeping things simple, a minimum number of staff will be working, thus no valet parking nor any bag drop area serviced by staff. Oh, there could very well be a driveway up to the front entrance and the ability to drop your buddy/clubs off at the door, but you'd be on your own, no staff.

Out-of-the-box thinking includes going with a "manager" or "director of golf" but no CPGA pro. Teaching lessons isn't what this course will be about. A nice practice area will be built for warming up and/or dropping by in the evening to work on your game (albeit being located several miles from town, doubt that many would do the latter). A small area inside the front entrance should meet the needs of everyone with a small selection of shirts & jackets available for purchase, with sleeves of balls, and bags of tees, perhaps a few gloves, at the front desk. Just the necessities.

The underlying theme here is to keep things practical. Small nice touches, though, could go a long way, and may not require extravagant spending.

I'll add a bit more later but I hope to read a few more comments in the meantime. Thanks so far.

Jim

[jeffwarne]

Some great thoughts so far, many thanks.

Some things to mention. In all likelihood, I can't envision the course coming back to the clubhouse at the turn, with certain areas of the property off limit to our course designer, so very likely there will be a halfway house/hut somewhere out on the layout, whether it is after 8, 9, 10, 11, whatever.

In keeping things simple, a minimum number of staff will be working, thus no valet parking nor any bag drop area serviced by staff. Oh, there could very well be a driveway up to the front entrance and the ability to drop your buddy/clubs off at the door, but you'd be on your own, no staff.

Out-of-the-box thinking includes going with a "manager" or "director of golf" but no CPGA pro. Teaching lessons isn't what this course will be about. A nice practice area will be built for warming up and/or dropping by in the evening to work on your game (albeit being located several miles from town, doubt that many would do the latter). A small area inside the front entrance should meet the needs of everyone with a small selection of shirts & jackets available for purchase, with sleeves of balls, and bags of tees, perhaps a few gloves, at the front desk. Just the necessities.

The underlying theme here is to keep things practical. Small nice touches, though, could go a long way, and may not require extravagant spending.

I'll add a bit more later but I hope to read a few more comments in the meantime. Thanks so far.

Jim

I'm curious why you're against a CPGA pro?
Wouldn't he be cheaper than a suit and more equipped to deal with a course that seems to be emphasizing golf and not the usual trappings.
His lessons could subsidize his income yet you'd get the benefit of his golf experience.

[JMEvensky]

All the answers are at your fingertips but you won't get a consensus here, too many opinions based on a wide cross section of golfers from around the world, different markets and their needs/wants.

 

Bottom line: listen to your core investors/customers who will use the place most often and stick to your mission. Place your emphasis on the course, it's conditions and the playing environment.

IMO,the problem with a lot of clubs is your first paragraph and a possible solution is your second.

Every guy thinks he's a market unto himself and should be catered to.The only consensus is that everybody must have their own specific wants addressed.But,if you just stuck with satisfying your most frequent members/customers,you'll probably be successful.Usually,those guys will be more interested in the golf course.

[Bill_McBride]

Palmetto Club is a perfect model.  However... you definitely want a bar of some sort that doubles as a hot dog/nabs/cold sandwich counter.  Cannot lose money with liquor and beer.

Agreed, and I don't think that building at Palmetto is bigger than 1500 s.f. (~ 150 sq M).  I would love to be a member there. 

[jeffwarne]

Palmetto Club is a perfect model.  However... you definitely want a bar of some sort that doubles as a hot dog/nabs/cold sandwich counter.  Cannot lose money with liquor and beer.

Agreed, and I don't think that building at Palmetto is bigger than 1500 s.f. (~ 150 sq M).  I would love to be a member there. 

Bill,
You missed the original (not counting the Stanford White main Clubhouse)
Lockeroom about 15x15, self serve hot dogs and drinks on a table in the cardroom (with all the great memorabia that's still there)
tiny pro shop+pro office
memberships are available
....

[Bill_McBride]

Palmetto Club is a perfect model.  However... you definitely want a bar of some sort that doubles as a hot dog/nabs/cold sandwich counter.  Cannot lose money with liquor and beer.

Agreed, and I don't think that building at Palmetto is bigger than 1500 s.f. (~ 150 sq M).  I would love to be a member there. 

Bill,
You missed the original (not counting the Stanford White main Clubhouse)
Lockeroom about 15x15, self serve hot dogs and drinks on a table in the cardroom (with all the great memorabia that's still there)
tiny pro shop+pro office
memberships are available
....

Memberships may be available (and a wonderful idea during this time of year for Yankees!) but too far from Pensacola for me to contemplate.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Some great thoughts so far, many thanks.

Some things to mention. In all likelihood, I can't envision the course coming back to the clubhouse at the turn, with certain areas of the property off limit to our course designer, so very likely there will be a halfway house/hut somewhere out on the layout, whether it is after 8, 9, 10, 11, whatever.

In keeping things simple, a minimum number of staff will be working, thus no valet parking nor any bag drop area serviced by staff. Oh, there could very well be a driveway up to the front entrance and the ability to drop your buddy/clubs off at the door, but you'd be on your own, no staff.

Out-of-the-box thinking includes going with a "manager" or "director of golf" but no CPGA pro. Teaching lessons isn't what this course will be about. A nice practice area will be built for warming up and/or dropping by in the evening to work on your game (albeit being located several miles from town, doubt that many would do the latter). A small area inside the front entrance should meet the needs of everyone with a small selection of shirts & jackets available for purchase, with sleeves of balls, and bags of tees, perhaps a few gloves, at the front desk. Just the necessities.

The underlying theme here is to keep things practical. Small nice touches, though, could go a long way, and may not require extravagant spending.

I'll add a bit more later but I hope to read a few more comments in the meantime. Thanks so far.

Jim

I'm curious why you're against a CPGA pro?
Wouldn't he be cheaper than a suit and more equipped to deal with a course that seems to be emphasizing golf and not the usual trappings.
His lessons could subsidize his income yet you'd get the benefit of his golf experience.

Jeff's post makes a lot of sense. You have the practice ground so let the pro teach, let him collect the revenue, in turn he runs the place for half the normal rate.

[Ben Sims]

memberships are available
....

Jeff,

Shh...don't tell anybody.

[JESII]

I would put a shower ahead of any retail space every time...if having two locker rooms isn't quite feasible make it co-ed.

All in all, the train of thought is really good, good luck.

[Bruce Katona]

Jim: $45-50 greens fees sound good.  Before diving into the pool of the golf course industry a few questions:

1. How many 18 hole rounds will the course average a year (this is Canada correct)?
2. What is the projected annual course maintenance budget?
3. What are the other annual costs (Pro/GM, food service, etc)
4. Irrigation water expense?
5. Liquor License cost?
6. Property taxes (may not apply)
7. VAT on revenue?
8. Debt Service payment on the bond floated to pay for the land and construction?

See if the number of rounds projected at the round rate cover these items annually. If so, spend some time thnking about how to program and design the building.  Adrian had some very good numbers for room sizes posted earlier.
 

[Tony_Muldoon]

I would put a shower ahead of any retail space every time...if having two locker rooms isn't quite feasible make it co-ed.

All in all, the train of thought is really good, good luck.

Co-ed shower, sounds like a friendly club!

[Jim Johnson]

Here's a crude down-sized sketch of a plan I came up with last summer, trying to see what would fit in an even smaller space (i.e. <2,500sq.ft.)...



Obviously the "design details" aren't included. I'm no architect.

The 8 "T's" in the lounge represent 8 tables with seating for 4 at each. The Men's Room has a urinal and a toilet and the Ladies has two toilets, enough to satisfy the province's liquor regulations (i.e. there must be "X" number of urinals & toilets for "X" amount of square footage in the serviced area).

Note that it does NOT contain any space for club storage and push carts, which might lead to 35-40 pissed off investors/members as Brent has suggested.

The check-in area doubles as a bar and a food service area, easily staffed by two people.

The above sketch was simply an exercise one hot summer day last year to see what could fit in an area less than 3,000 sq.ft., which turned out to be 2,400 square feet.

Any thoughts on the above sketch?

[Adrian_Stiff]

60 x 40 is the wrong shape really. Its hard to get a 40 ft span cheaply and the roof can look ugly, too big and expensive. 25 -30 ft widths are better, nicer buildings are more traditional with the right pitches of 45degrees, low pitches can look cack. Your circulation was pretty good and everyting touched okay. Try and new template with the lower widths, even a cross shape can work quite nice. I suspect you will need a disabled toilet as well. I think a small changing area is essential, people like to be clean, especially if they are going to stay and perhaps eat and drink. You might need that extra 600 sq ft, your target market suggest manua workers might play, they be dirty clothed before they play and need to change. For 1 sq metre per shower its a no brainer, but get some professional help with an architect to explain cost effective building and compliance and make sure you can expand if you need to reasonably easily without major shifting of important bits.

[Steve Salmen]

At the risk of being thrown off this site, may I suggest an optional outdoor shower off to the side?

Some examples that could really cut costs:

[Bill_McBride]

60 x 40 is the wrong shape really. Its hard to get a 40 ft span cheaply and the roof can look ugly, too big and expensive. 25 -30 ft widths are better, nicer buildings are more traditional with the right pitches of 45degrees, low pitches can look cack. Your circulation was pretty good and everyting touched okay. Try and new template with the lower widths, even a cross shape can work quite nice. I suspect you will need a disabled toilet as well. I think a small changing area is essential, people like to be clean, especially if they are going to stay and perhaps eat and drink. You might need that extra 600 sq ft, your target market suggest manua workers might play, they be dirty clothed before they play and need to change. For 1 sq metre per shower its a no brainer, but get some professional help with an architect to explain cost effective building and compliance and make sure you can expand if you need to reasonably easily without major shifting of important bits.

40' spans are not a problem with pre-engineered steel framed buildings, which are generally less expensive and take higher wind loads dollar for dollar.  (I have built a bunch of steel framed buildings over the years in my business)

I like the large open room the 40' width provides.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I am getting confused here. I really dont understand the quality of product wanted.  Unless you want a low pitch minger the building is 10 metres high!!!!!

[Jim Johnson]

Adrian, sorry, I didn't label them as such, but there's a handicapped stall in each of the washrooms (stall door opens outward) and an additional stall in the Ladies.

I would personally agree with the showers idea, I think that people would appreciate a quick shower before or after golfing.

Bruce, I can't answer all of your questions online, but in answer to some of your questions:
1. 24,000 rounds in first full year, 28,000 rounds in second year, 32,000 rounds in third year and each succeeding year.
5. $200
6. None; the site is provincial Crown land.
8. There will be no loans; all capital raised will come from investors/members. In return, multiple perks will be afforded to those people, enticing enough to attract 35-40 investors/members.

Any comments on the Palmetto clubhouse and the Crystal Downs clubhouse? Curious.

Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

I think you need adequate shower and changing facilities.

I would imagine that a good number of golfers would need to shower and change after golf in order to attend business or social functions.  Not having those facilities may be a negative.

However, before making any decisions on any aspect of the facility and service issues, wouldn't we need to understand the degree of competition, demographics, locations, etc.,etc..

[Matt Vandelac]

I know this has been hinted at, but I don't understand why don't you consult with someone that does that for a living?  Collecting ideas is fine, but it seems you have a long way to go towards defining your mission and developing a business plan to succeed. 

[Jim Johnson]

Definitely Matt, as I said before, "I'm no architect". But at the moment, I'm interested in thoughts from the DG. And when it comes time, that architect will need input from us for guidance and ideas.

In all of our travels, I'm sure there are some smaller clubhouses we've visited where we came away with a positive reflection, and those smaller clubhouses are the ones I'm interested in hearing about. What their physical attributes are, their (approximate) square footage, any strong likes or dislikes you had during your time there.

Thanks.

[Jud_T]

Architecturally, the best small clubhouse I've seen:

http://www.boothhansen.com/projects/the-dunes-club/

[Mac Plumart]

Jim...

In 100% seriousness, I think you need to make the trip to see some of the clubhouses first hand. 

Palmetto is more than just its dimensions and layout.  As soon as I stepped through the front door, this aura overwhelmed me.  Then meandering back to the memorabilia room this feeling does nothing but intensify.  And the real amazing thing is that there is nothing to really do in the clubhouse (the new clubhouse) except change clothes, eat standard food in a small dining area, or walk out the door and golf.  No frills.  Just golf.  But I can't really put into words that aura/feeling that the clubhouse creates.  Hence the idea for a road trip to see it.

Chechessee Creek is another off the charts amazing clubhouse.  Still somewhat modest in size, but MUCH bigger and more grand than Palmetto.  So maybe that is not your ideal model.  But it would certainly be worth checking out their website to see photos of the place.  Very well done and the photos online really highlight what the place looks like and I think you can get a sense of the feel of the place.

The Golf Club in Ohio is another amazing clubhouse.  Again a bit bigger than Palmetto with some stuff you might not need.  But that "feeling" is there.  Understated and all about golf.  In fact, my father-in-law in the architect of their clubhouse.

Yeamans Hall's pro shop/guest clubhouse is right up there with Palmetto's as being close to ideal.  But I don't know if they have showers in that section of the clubhouse. 

The River Club in Suwanee, Georiga has a really, really exellent pro shop/clubhouse.  Kind of like Palmetto's, but more upscale with less history.  Small and cozy, pro shop, locker room, dining area...just not expansive.  Real great upscale vibe.

There you go...lots of road trips ahead for you!!!  Need a co-pilot?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

On the other hand:




http://www.archdaily.com/99833/ananti-club-skm-architects/

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