17th at TPC Scottsdale

[Mike Jansen]

Watching the Phoenix Open wrap up on Mon, the TV commentators were giving Weiskopf a lot of praise for the his design of the short par 4.  How much it makes the players think on tee about how they are gonna play it.  For as much as it makes the players think, they seemed to always pull out driver and a suprising amount of them were very sloppy and put it in the water, even coming down the stretch.  Why weren't more players laying up with mid iron and flicking a wedge to the pin?

Also, prior to the tournament I hadn't  really heard much about the hole compared to all the other great/ famous short par 4s such as Riveria, Merion and Nat'l have theres, etc.  Does it not really stand up to these, and the announcers were just fill.ing air time with undeserved hype?

[Rob Bice]

I was wondering the same thing.  I seem to remember in years past you would see many more irons or 3-woods off the tee.  I also believe right of the green was the bailout area even though it was a tough up and down.  Maybe the new theory is don't worry about the water because you still have a good chance at par even if you get wet.  Or possibly its just selective TV coverage that we see and the strategy hasn't really changed over the years.

I wouldn't think anyone would compare 17 with the short par 4s at Riviera, Merion and National.  Similar to the 16th, it makes for good theater at a very fan friendly tournament.

[Mark Smolens]

At least 25 years ago, pre-Pro V and other solid core balls becoming the ball of choice for the pros, I was at a Tuesday practice round watching Freddy Couples (it was so long ago that he didn't even have a bevy of beauties following his every move. He walked up to the 17th tee, dropped a ball out of his pocket, and Joey handed him a 3-wood (the women's club that belonged to Tom Watson's wife that Freddy took out of Watson's trunk). That languid swing, and whoosh. . . he flew it right in front, two hops, on the green, like it was a Saturday game with my group at Dubs.

It would be hard to call any hole at TPC Scottsdale great, and it's way, way overpriced, but it certainly is fun to be able to play the same holes that the big kids play. ..

[JMEvensky]

It would be hard to call any hole at TPC Scottsdale great, and it's way, way overpriced, but it certainly is fun to be able to play the same holes that the big kids play. ..

I agree completely and think the same holds true for every course on the PGA Tour.Whether great architecture or not,they're all fun to play and "match" shots--even Doral.

[Bill_McBride]

I think it's a much better hole with the pin all the way back in that narrow neck.  The short game shots are so much more difficult that out come the drivers.  Mark Wilson's pitch from the right bailout was very scary with the water behind the green.

[Morgan Clawson]

I went to this tournament years ago and this was the best hole to watch IMO. A few of the long hitters would go for the green, but most were short of it. It was fun to watch a lot of different short shots played to this green. This hole gets passed-over from a  coverage standpoint because the focus is on 16.

[Anton]

I think the hole would be much more interesting if that steep bank in front of the green was graded a bit flatter and if the width of the green was cut way down.  The ball stops dead on that front slope too often.  A player would have greater concern if the ball ran on the ground more and the risk of it rolling thru the green or off the surface (left or right) was there.  Also a large chipping area right of the green running away from a narrower putting surface would bring a nasty chip/pitch shot in play for a player that tries to bail out right off the tee (the pitch would also be directed at the water hazard).   Just my opinion.  I think with these changes the hole would play more risk/reward like the 10th at Riviera and bring a lot more drama to the finish. 

My best course for short par 4s is indeed Atlantic City Country Club.  In Tom Doaks remastering of this classic course, he created some awesome short par 4s.  Holes 2, 3, 14, 16 are incredible and offer a fantastic variety of options both off the tee and from the fairway.  Plus each of these holes has unique green characteristics that could drive a sane sober man to drink quite heavily.  :-)

Great topic

[Jason Topp]

My memory is that the layup is tough.  I remember watching the first year they had it there and I watched from behind 16 tee on Sunday.  I was the only one stationed there and could watch 15, 16 and 17 from one spot. 

On 17, there was more variety in tee shot choice at that time, although I still think a layup short of the water down the left may be a better play than the driver based on what I saw this year.

I remember being surprised at how big Azinger's Big Bertha driver was.