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jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Green is the new green?
« on: February 04, 2011, 01:35:44 PM »
excerpt from a letter to a club
the letter was polite and balanced and an appropriate polite reply was given

"obviously, it is a tradeoff and overseeding slows the bermuda grass in the spring BUT:
playing off dormant grass makes it very difficult for a non resident to invite guests to visit XYZ club and xyx town in the winter months. Green grass in the winter months and a bit warmer climate were a couple reasons that i joined.
 I played a couple of weeks ago and the golf course is certainly in good shape. But, the dormant grass is certainly not as exciting to play on. I can stay in (insert hometown) if I want to play on dormant grass. Why should I drive to XYZ club?
I think it is a financial necessity that the club overseed in the winter. I think we will lose revenue by not overseeding. Less guest fees, cart fees, and potentially dues income (if other nonresidents feel the same way and drop their memberships)
 I realize there are costs to overseeding..."


note-the club has a significant revenue # in guest and  unaccompanied play

discuss


« Last Edit: February 04, 2011, 01:39:44 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2011, 02:03:05 PM »
Jeff,

His conclusions are presumptuous.

If the club has significant guest and unaccompanited guest revenues and they don't overseed, why is he concerned ?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2011, 02:05:04 PM »
Jeff,

His conclusions are presumptuous.

If the club has significant guest and unaccompanited guest revenues and they don't overseed, why is he concerned ?

This is the first year in awhile they haven't
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2011, 02:15:24 PM »
I don't know any of the people involved,but I'd bet a stack that this member is merely stating his own preference for overseeding.His concern for guests is a red herring.

This guy likes overseeding and figures that his "guest revenue" argument won't be self serving.

If you deal with members long enough,cynicism becomes instinctual.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2011, 02:16:48 PM »
Right to the heart of the matter...what does a club want to be?

Interested in jumping into this discussion in a little bit.



Just saw your post JME...don't you think it's fair to assume that if it bothers this single member it will reduce his guest play? If there are 10 like him...

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2011, 02:25:56 PM »
Right to the heart of the matter...what does a club want to be?

Interested in jumping into this discussion in a little bit.



Just saw your post JME...don't you think it's fair to assume that if it bothers this single member it will reduce his guest play? If there are 10 like him...

I didn't type the whole letter(I didn't want to give it away), but he was reasoned,polite, and clear in his arguements, as was the club.
I just thought his listed reasons for joining were somewhat at odds to the treehouse's view, but worthy of consideration for anyone owning/operating a course
It's actually much ado about nothing as the club simply takes a year off from overseeding for turf reasons once every 5 years, but I thought it was interesting as overseeding is a common controversial subject in the south
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2011, 02:29:39 PM »

Just saw your post JME...don't you think it's fair to assume that if it bothers this single member it will reduce his guest play? If there are 10 like him...


There are always "10 like him".And as soon as a club accedes to this guy and his 10,another guy(and his 10)will want the diametric opposite.You can't run a club by plebiscite.

Do I think this member will bring fewer guests because of not overseeding?Maybe.But do you really want a club making decisions based on non-members' perceptions?

I am frequently wrong but never in doubt.I've just heard too many members' lame justifications for their stupid requests.It's an involuntary response--as a general rule,I think all members are only looking out for themselves.


Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2011, 02:38:23 PM »
I'm with Pat
in a few years (or more) they will figure out who was right.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2011, 02:38:44 PM »
Jeff,

Do you mind redacting the proper nouns in the clubs reply and giving us the gist of why they skip overseeding once every few years?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2011, 02:44:36 PM »

Just saw your post JME...don't you think it's fair to assume that if it bothers this single member it will reduce his guest play? If there are 10 like him...


There are always "10 like him".And as soon as a club accedes to this guy and his 10,another guy(and his 10)will want the diametric opposite.You can't run a club by plebiscite.

Do I think this member will bring fewer guests because of not overseeding?Maybe.But do you really want a club making decisions based on non-members' perceptions?

I am frequently wrong but never in doubt.I've just heard too many members' lame justifications for their stupid requests.It's an involuntary response--as a general rule,I think all members are only looking out for themselves.



Those "nonmember perception"s (whatever they are) are huge part of this club's revenue stream, and I know for a fact that they are considered as it dramatically affects the dues structure of the club.
His justifications, whether they're right or wrong, were not "stupid requests"

Pat, Mike,
You won't see "who was right" in this case as the club is merely doing what they've always done, skipping one year out of five for turf health.
So the discussion, as I mention earlier, is much ado about nothing at this particular club-but is relevant for other clubs with a similar model who may be considering overseeding (or not)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2011, 02:52:06 PM »
this was a common concern when I worked at Long Cove in HHI.
Northerners who were there in March April wanted good fairways to play off, but the year round players had to live with transition in summer.
They handled it great on the greens as they used a powdery poe trivialis overseed on the greens tha never affected putting.
They went back and forth on the fairways-dormant years they got really thin in feb ,march-overseed years it was messy in Nov, Dec
but it wasn't really a revenue question as all the memberships were sold,but rather an expense(and timing of playability) question
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 09:31:00 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 08:43:15 AM »
Jeff,

Do you mind redacting the proper nouns in the clubs reply and giving us the gist of why they skip overseeding once every few years?

Ben,
  A lot of times, a year of not overseeding is to allow the bermudagrass a full year to strengthen after several years of seeding. The bermudagrass will then be much stronger to transition from ryegrass for another couple years.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Todd Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 09:03:21 AM »
Do most clubs have a nonoverseeding year? 

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2011, 09:34:44 AM »
Do most clubs have a nonoverseeding year? 

I know a good number of 36 hole clubs that will alternate every other year with overseeding.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2011, 09:50:47 AM »
full disclosure
The club is Palmetto.

guilty pleasure disclosure
As an out of town member, I enjoy the overseeding,(always plays firm and fast in spring) but I fully understand the reasons for not overseeding, and also am aware of the problems the overseeding imposes on the year round membership.(who are somewhat evenly split on overseeding)
I also enjoy the course not overseeded, but the greens do get diabolically quick(as in off the green) during a cold winter with high traffic.  
painting them green doesn't solve this as grass that's not growing, yet being cut gets crazy fast on old style contours. (and I'd like to retain the contours)

Palmetto opens to the public Masters week and brings in over $150,000 that week  so "visitor appeal"(whatever drives this) is important.
I'd like to think it's the charm, and architecture of the place-as well as the relative value during a hyper inflated week( but some no doubt prefer green )and it is a striking contrast if not overseeded in April.

I think they handle the balancing perfectly
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 09:54:31 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2011, 10:44:28 AM »
Jeff:

How often do they cut the greens during the months where the grass is mostly dormant?

Couldn't they just back off on the frequency of mowing?  [I know, the greens would get a little bumpy on the off days ... OR you could putt off the greens.]

NOT overseeding is generally the responsible thing to do.  I suspect it will reduce visitor revenue a bit, though the question is really whether it will reduce visitor revenue as much as the cost of overseeding ... and the typical member who objects seldom mentions that, does he?  However, Palmetto might be the exception to that rule, because of the revenue generated during Masters week.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2011, 10:47:12 AM »
Anybody who would bring fewer guests or any guest that would decline due to not overseeding is someone I'd rather not have in my club anyway.
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2011, 11:53:30 AM »
I think Palmetto is an exceedingly rare case for this phenomena.  I would guess that 3/4's of the people that play the golf course during Masters Week would still play it on off years of non-overseeding.  If we want to get technical, that would reduce the revenue from that week from $150K-ish to $112K-ish for the week.  I have no idea how much it costs to overseed a golf course with ryegrass, but it seems that if it was cost prohibitive, Rhett and his staff would do otherwise. 

It is obviously a turf health issue, and it also provides a playing condition that is rare (winter time, once every five years).   51 weeks a year, Palmetto is a vibrant, private golf club, with two tournaments of note.  Turf health is an important issue.  My feeling is that if it was losing memberships or guest revenue to not overseed every few years, it would be addressed.  In the end, the club seems to be caring about it's membership first.  Which is where the priority should lie.

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2011, 12:01:46 PM »
how long is it really brown?It seems to me,and this is a question,that the strains like 419 are only brown two to three months.Don't you almost lose a month of good conditions during each transition?

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2011, 12:06:03 PM »
Anybody who would bring fewer guests or any guest that would decline due to not overseeding is someone I'd rather not have in my club anyway.
Jud-I know what you are saying but the majority of the golfing population associates green with good and brown with bad.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2011, 12:56:19 PM »
Jeff:

How often do they cut the greens during the months where the grass is mostly dormant?

Couldn't they just back off on the frequency of mowing?  [I know, the greens would get a little bumpy on the off days ... OR you could putt off the greens.]

NOT overseeding is generally the responsible thing to do.  I suspect it will reduce visitor revenue a bit, though the question is really whether it will reduce visitor revenue as much as the cost of overseeding ... and the typical member who objects seldom mentions that, does he?  However, Palmetto might be the exception to that rule, because of the revenue generated during Masters week.

Tom,
or I could just make the putt and the cup would stop it!
Huge disclaimer_I've not played there this year-and the letter writer did applaud the condition -my guess is Rhett's on top of the speed/smoothness factor anyway-but to cut greens , it does help to have some growing grass .

The decision to not overseed every 5 years (4 in this case) is not controversial. Everyone understands/accepts that as standard procedure.
In fact, there is no controversy . They just went a year early because the turf suffered during transition after the renovation.
Additionally, when palmetto switched to their ultradwarf greens, they decided not to overseed the greens at all and paint them if needed.
I just think that conditions can get dicey during a cold snap as Palmetto can go dormant in late October and stay that way until early may.
It's certainly not 2-3 months.
That said for overall playability year round, not overseeding is the way to go.
I'd guess the majority of regular member rounds played at Palmetto are April-September, as shocking as that may sound. (football does take its' toll)
Palmetto does have a large contingent of out of town members, many of whom are traditionally from the north(although not the letter writer in this case) and would like to see some relief from the harshness of winter(i.e. green)

Palmetto used to be a winter club like Yeaman's and ANGC, so the distant members probably used to have a stronger say.
Now wth a balanced and active year round regular membership, they do a good job of satisfying both camps.

Ben is right that if they didn't overseed they'd probably not lose much play during the Masters.
many of the Masters week guests are quite sophisticated.

Tom,
The letter writer did address the expense side of not overseeding, and he may well be overestimating the revenue loss of not overseeding.

That said, when you catch a beautiful April day in Aiken and the greens and fairways are beautifully green (it's a much lighter overseed than ANGC and wouldn't approach the greenness of a NGLA or Shinnecock fairway))and the azaleas are blooming, and it was playing firm and fast, I'd say you were lying to prefer white fairways with no definition frm the roughs or greens.

I do get a kick out of people asuming white/brown dormant bermuda fairways are always assumed firm and fast, because they're often not-just thin and soft.

The point of this thread was to point out that not all answers are quite as cut and dried as the treehouse makes them out to be, and also to compliment the management of Palmetto of doing a good job balancing all factors and keeping a wide range of people happy.


So to take this a step farther, would ANGC win any conditioning awards if it was white/brown inApril?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 01:17:47 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2011, 01:48:40 PM »
Jeff,
I'd say the world would be quite surprised if ANGC came on the air in a semi-dormant state......and why would they want to, their season is prety short.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2011, 03:41:31 PM »
I just talked to someone at a multi-course resort about that, and he said that if you paint the greens it's not a lot cheaper to eliminate overseeding.  His biggest argument for doing it was to eliminate the transition period.  He's doing it on some of his courses, and thinks that he'll ultimately do them all.

I think he's still overseeding the fairways, however.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2011, 04:50:38 PM »

I do get a kick out of people asuming white/brown dormant bermuda fairways are always assumed firm and fast, because they're often not-just thin and soft.



That's certainly true.  When the grass is dormant, the roots don't soak up much of the available water, so unless there is excellent surface or subsurface drainage, it stays wet.  Zoysia fairways are even worse for that than bermuda fairways.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Green is the new green?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2011, 05:28:26 PM »
how long is it really brown?It seems to me,and this is a question,that the strains like 419 are only brown two to three months.Don't you almost lose a month of good conditions during each transition?

 Mike, you lose anywhere from 4 to 6 weeks depending upon the weather, but, you lose it twice, going into and out of season.

The problem is that most non-resident golfers aren't on site during the two transition periods, usually in October and April/May, so they don't suffer through the transition periods, and as such, don't complain.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 12:06:46 PM by Patrick_Mucci »