[Matt_Ward]

Brian:

Interesting take on CP.

I liked the course better than The Rim. The Rim is a more scenic wonder but CP puts more emphasis on overall shotmaking skills in my mind.

Be curious to know your personal top five -- I like what Desert Highlands did from the standpoint in transfering what a desert course could be about. Credit Nicklaus and Lyle Anderson for that. The Estancia Club is a top shelf member's club -- no doubt there's eye candy but plenty of solid holes too and one of TF's best I have played.

[Ken Moum]

Ken:

Longbow is a good solid alternative for those who want a more reasonable golf option in the area along with the lack of housing clutter you mentioned.

The question on this thread was listing the best in AZ -- Longbow is not, in my mind, a top 25 consideration -- the overall depth of golf options in the state is THAT good.

I wasn't proposing it be on the list.  I know you would have mentioned it if it was worthy.

Since I have only played one of the courses on your AZ list, and toured parts of a couple of others, I wondered how far down a course like Longbow would fit.

Just looking for a frame of reference with a course I have played many times.

K

[Matt_Ward]

Ken:

Longbow would be somewhere in the top 50 but I would need to really examine that. Once you get below a certain # you get a full boat ride of courses that are very close to one another -- likely in the Doak 3-5 range. I like Longbow for the reason you an dothers have mentioned. However, AZ golf is very competitive as you likely know.

[Brian Stewart]

Matt,

My personal top 5 in AZ would be:
Desert Forest
Silverleaf
Forest Highlands/Canyon
Whisper Rock/Lower
Stone Canyon

Second 5 would probably be
Troon
Estancia
The Rim
Desert Mountain/Outlaw
Desert Mountain/Geronimo

Now, I will say that I've never played Whisper Rock/Upper and even though I live almost as close to The Golf Club of Scottsdale as I do Vista Verde I haven't had a chance to play it yet.  I'll probably play sometime this summer though as I've heard good things about it.  I've played the rest on your list and it is hard to complain about any of them (other than CP ).  They are all, in my opinion, very good golf courses. 

[Matt_Ward]

Brian:

Thanks for your listing.

Can you tell me what you see with Troon ?

I think Weiskopf has done far better with Silverleaf which you have mentioned.

Curious to know if you have played Saguaro at We-ko-pa too ?

When you played Geronimo at DM did you play it with the old 13th and 14th holes -- or since the changes ?

Curious to know if you have played Chirichua there -- and if so -- where would you rate it ?

[Brian Stewart]

Matt,

I really enjoy the par 5s at Troon for some reason.  Particularly hole 3.  I also think several of the par 4s provide interesting options as well.  Silverleaf is wonderful in my mind though.  It is the best Weiskopf course I have played. 

I've played We Ko Pa Saguaro and agree that it starts slow but I still like it quite a bit.  I think it is much better than Talking Stick North if I'm comparing work done by the same people.  I fear that TSN is overrated in many cases.  That doesn't mean it isn't a good course in my mind, it is. 

It has been quite a while since I played Geronimo last so I'm going to guess it was before the changes.  I played it when the Tradition was still at DM.  I've also play Chirichua but only once and it would be right up there as well.  It becomes difficult to tell them apart at some point.  Also, while I questioned Desert Highlands in the top 5 I certainly could have easily put it in the top 10. 

I looked back on a reply to a PM I made here that asked for my top 10 AZ courses and the list changed considerably in the last year since I've been back.  Some of it is what I'm thinking about at the moment and some of that comes from playing a few of these courses again in the year I've been back.  Playing these courses again has changed my opinion in many cases.  Troon North used to have two courses in or near the top 10 but over watering and a proliferation of houses jammed on the courses has hurt both courses in my mind. 

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

If you can't fathom the differences in terms of what is presented by Chirichua at DM and Ventana Canyon / Mtn then frankly you are not looking that hard enough. I think that there is a dismissal of desert golf as some sort of sideshow of constant similarity -- that's far from the case and many of the more recent courses have demonstrated that. If you see all at no better than a Doak 5 I would dare say that you need to play a good bit to make such an overreaching generalization.

Re-read Doak's comments on DH in CG. They still apply today. Nicklaus created a different style and presentation. It moved away from simply what Desert Forest provided and clearly was both evolutionary and revolutionary for it did.

Forest Highlands is a tour de force layout in the ponderosa pines of Flagstaff. Smartly routed and crafted -- Doak's comments, also in CG, speak to that and a few other issues of note. In regards to the complex at WR -- it is truly first rate and validates why so many top tier players prefer to call it home.

AZ golf may not be everyone's cup of tea -- but it's a good bit better than a broad-brushed Doak 5 assessment in my mind.

One final thing -- I'd love to see AS move up but turf quality and daily commitment to maintaining it is lacking and frankly until that changes, if it ever does, will likely mean more of a "wish" than a true reality for a better tomorrow there.

Matt:

I  think our differences have more to do with perception of the Doak scale than any bias or lack of experience playing desert courses on my part. 

I have played at least 50 desert courses having lived in Tucson, gone to school in Tempe, had parents in Tucson for 20 years, traveled to New Mexico twice, Las Vegas 2-3 times, Palm Springs 3 or 4 times, and Scottsdale more times than I can count. 

I am well acquainted with desert golf and really enjoy it.  I find desert courses a match with about any other location for natural beauty.  I think it is possible to build a terrific golf course in the desert (Black Mesa).  Nonetheless, I do not think there is a big distinction in quality for the most part between those on the top of your list and some courses that were not included.   

 



  Nonetheless, Minneapolis is the home of the Doak 6 in my view and I would place several courses there higher than anything in Arizona.

[Matt_Ward]

Brian:

I think Troon has its moments -- really like the uphill 12th or 13th hole ? But I don't see Troon sniffing that close to Silverleaf. Hard to fathom on Silverleaf gets lost in all the attention paid to other Scottsdale courses. When I see an eye-candy to the max place like Mirabel ahead of it -- I know something is wrong big time.

I have to say Saguaro gets by with such a sluggish start -- frankly the real deal is with the ending stretch -- the first third is just not firing on all cylinders.

Yeah, you're right -- the market for good golf in the az area has certainly blossomed -- plenty of top tier choices for those inclined to like it.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

Several courses higher from MN than anything in AZ.

Please elaborate with some specifics on that front.

Happy to discuss in greater detail.

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

Several courses higher from MN than anything in AZ.

Please elaborate with some specifics on that front.

Happy to discuss in greater detail.

Matt - I actually meant to delete that line because I am not sure it holds, hence the goofy spacing.  I do consider Interlachen, Golden Valley, Woodhilll, Northland, Giant's Ridge Quarry, The Classic, Oak Ridge (home course bias); Minnikahda and Windsong Farm to be better than the top courses you identified in your top five.  Probably an equal number of courses are close to that level of quality. There are also one or two contenders I have not played.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

"Far better."

I have played several of the ones from MN you have mentioned and don't see it.

WR / Lower is a top 50 USA course in my mind and frankly I don't see the ones I have played in MN being at that level.

Interlachen gets way too much hype for the past and the events held there. Ditto for Minnikahda. Forrest Highlands / Canyon was a breakthrough course for bringing to life golf in the high altitude area where ponderosa pines prevail. We can discuss more -- thanks for kicking the ball off for the discussion.

[Matt_Ward]

Would be interesting to see just the top 15 or so public courses listed separately. A few have mentioned this to me given the fact The Estancia Club won't be inviting many people to just drop by.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Public listing would be interesting, there are still a lot of choices.

I do question the real quality and depth of the Arizona public golf options. Say you took the top 15 public courses in Arizona and stacked them up against the top 15 public courses from a state like Indiana, is there really much difference? The courses obviously have far different styles, and no public course from Indiana ever makes anybody's national list of anything, but I think a case could be made either way. Perhaps I just like the style of midwestern golf better than desert golf, or maybe I'll get some agreement.

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

"Far better."

I have played several of the ones from MN you have mentioned and don't see it.

WR / Lower is a top 50 USA course in my mind and frankly I don't see the ones I have played in MN being at that level.

Interlachen gets way too much hype for the past and the events held there. Ditto for Minnikahda. Forrest Highlands / Canyon was a breakthrough course for bringing to life golf in the high altitude area where ponderosa pines prevail. We can discuss more -- thanks for kicking the ball off for the discussion.

Be happy to do so but it probably detracts from this thread so we will do it some other time.  I'm out of town the next few days so maybe next week.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

Look forward to picking up the convesation with you.

Andy:

I agree with your take -- the dimension of public course quality is not in the same league with other states -- take for example, the nearby State of Colorado. The market place evolved differently in AZ -- gated communities and the ascension of the private sideof golf development was the initial ground-breaking platform in The Grand Canyon State.

You mentioned Indiana and there's little doubt -- I have long said as much -- that The Hoosier State is a first rate home to a number of stellar public courses -- many of which are affordable to the masses.

Andy, the omission of the top tier public courses from Indiana demonstrates the ignorance of those who rate facilities. Too many people fall prey to the hype and the location of the Sunbelt as the main reason for pushing courses of public stripe from those areas. Indiana is just lost and those who have personally played a good number of them know firsthand what I am saying.

Nonetheless, a public course listing for AZ would be helpful in order to keep one's wallet from being crippled with the high in-season rates and the lack of availability for so many of the others that have been discussed already on this thread.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I would agree on Colorado. The public golf there is right with Michigan for the best I've seen. Other states are up there too, but those are the ones I'm familiar with. If you're only looking at the public side, New Mexico is also relatively competitive with Arizona, at least through the top ten. Arizona certainly has more depth. The costs on most of the courses in other states are minimal compared to the peak season in Arizona, although I found that its pretty easy to get deals on AZ courses compared to a few years ago.

[Matt_Ward]

Try to realize this -- it's not out of the wood that AZ golf will evolve and many of the previous privately-operated clubs will open their doors to the public. Southern Dunes is a great example of that -- its genesis was a men's only initially -- then they opted in a completely different direction.

AZ's golf market was for private gated communities.

Since the population has swelled and since so many courses are operating -- they will need to open their doors in order to keep their tee sheet and cash flow going.

The Palm Springs market was much the same way -- you now have daily fees doing business there too.

Colorado has probably the most diverse course portfolio I can see. The private side is well represented and the public side provides a slew of different options.

NM is not really deep -- AZ would have the better first ten -- once you get beyond BM and Paa-Ko the differential really does grow.

AZ's golf market will now have tobe more fluid in order to keep going forward. It's possible the public side will be the dominant engine in a short time because I can't see how all those gated communities and associated courses and pricetags can remain as is.

[Jerry Kluger]

If anyone knows of some of the privates in AZ that are opening up to some public play please let me know.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Jerry,

Other than Superstition Mountain which is now semi-private with one course public and one private on a daily rotating basis, I can't think of any others. However, Quintero can be accessed through an Avid Golfer passbook($50 @ Van's Golf Stores which includes a dozen Srixon Tri Speed Tour balls and a $10 discount coupon at Van's) Your round is there is $23 for cart fee and $150 for up to 3 guests. When are you arriving? I'll be here until mid-April.

[Matthew Petersen]

Jerry,

Other than Superstition Mountain which is now semi-private with one course public and one private on a daily rotating basis, I can't think of any others. However, Quintero can be accessed through an Avid Golfer passbook($50 @ Van's Golf Stores which includes a dozen Srixon Tri Speed Tour balls and a $10 discount coupon at Van's) Your round is there is $23 for cart fee and $150 for up to 3 guests. When are you arriving? I'll be here until mid-April.

There are a few other private clubs opening up for public play, particularly through websites like golfnow.com.

Rim Club, Hassayampa, Seven Canyons, Superstition Mountain, Red Mountain Ranch are all available through that site. And Quintero will also allow play for Troon card holders and via other deals, I understand.

[Matt_Ward]

Jerry:

A number of the private clubs likely won't want to really advertise their "public" side because they fell their overall cache and membership reactions may not be as thrilled.

I don't see how courses that wanted to remain private can do so if the cash flow isn't there to support it.

The ones others have named clearly indicates that desire to allow others to play them at certain times of the year.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I played Engh's Blackstone yesterday. It was my second time there.It's fun to play and passes the Mucci test as I wanted to play 18 more immediately. Unfortunately, the sun was setting. It certainly deserves its spot on this list.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Exactly where does Blackstone get placed and what course(s) get moved down to provide for it.

By the way -- I really like the layout -- although I think it would have helped matters if the nines were flipped -- the
existing 9th deserves to be the closing hole. #18 is a so-so concluding hole.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt,

The 9s were flipped to give members a "feel good" closing hole.  9,12 and the double dogleg 14 are good 5pars. I'd rather play Blackstone than Quintero,for example. Perhaps it could move into your 4th group. My private club experience here is somewhat limited.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

That's the issue -- the private side is still so dominant in AZ golf. I like Blackstone and it's good to see Engh work on a site that is fairly flat as opposed to his other works at Pradera and Sanctuary !

Hard to see Blackstone being ahead of Vista Verde and Saguaro at We-ko-pa to name just two public.

Still, a worthy play in the western valley area.

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