[George Pazin]

I can't speak top what you have or have not played. If you can point out the ones you liked the best from your visits there I can discuss.

Didn't mean to imply I expected a discussion - I didn't find the course I played particularly noteworthy. I believe they are 1) Eagle Mountain 2) Las Sendas  3) Greyhawk - Raptor and 4) Whirlwind (not sure which, I think Cattail, it was 9 years ago and I was more interested in talking with my best friend than examining the details of the course - did win a sleeve of balls on one of those wager par 3s, though!). None were bad, I just didn't think any were special, either. I will say, I found the Whirlwind course to be the most playable, from my perspective. They were all my friends' choices. Were I the decision maker, it would've been AS & TSN all the way, I am that biased in choosing courses.

Thanks for the explanations on the categories. I linked to your CA/NV/AZ threads on the master list thread, let me know if there are others.

[Rob Bice]

I see one reference to the narrowness of fairways - aside from 13 which holes are overly narrow?

The other 17...

Its a great course for "short and straight," but for wayward drivers like me it requires a box of golf balls to be safe. If I ever were to play it again I'd take out the driver and 3-wood and take my chances that way.

Slight exaggeration certainly on the starting comment of course, but I do think the fast conditions just make the narrowness more pronounced.

And the majority of DG members like it better than I do...probably all of them.

Well, I wouldn't call any of the par 3s narrow!

There are a lot of risk/reward opportunites off the tee.  Several holes challenge the wayward driver but that is a bad thing?  I might be more sympathetic if driver or a long 3-wood for most holes were the only options but that is not the case at all.  Firm conditions and very few forced carries provide opportunity for long irons off the tee.  Again, risk/reward.  Great match play course for this reason.

[Matthew Petersen]

Greetings from sunny(and somewhit chilly,at  least for here) AZ.

I haven't played all the privates to comment on the list. From the ones that I've played, I like Desert Forest,Silverleaf,Gallery North, Blackstone,Superstition Mountain Prospector*, Quintero* and Mirabel, in that order.

*now semi-private

For the public courses, here's GW's list:

Arizona
1. We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro), Fort McDowell (No. 75 m)
2. Ritz-Carlton GC at Dove Mountain (Saguaro/Tortolita), Marana (m)*
3. Troon North (Monument), Scottsdale (m)
4. We-Ko-Pa (Cholla), Fort McDowell (m)
5. TPC Scottsdale (Stadium), Scottsdale (m)
6. Ventana Canyon (Mountain), Tucson (m)
7. Talking Stick (North), Scottsdale (m)
8. Troon North (Pinnacle), Scottsdale (m)  
9. Southern Dunes GC, Maricopa (m)
10. Superstition Mountain (Prospector), Superstition Mountain (m)*
11. Boulders Resort (North), Carefree (m)
12. La Paloma GC (Ridge/Canyon), Tucson (m)
13. Laughlin Ranch, Bullhead City (m)
14. Superstition Mountain (Lost Gold), Superstition Mountain (m)*
15. Grayhawk (Raptor), Scottsdale (m)
16. Golf Club of Estrella, Phoenix (m)
17. Longbow GC, Mesa (m)
18. Boulders Resort (South), Carefree (m)
19. Talking Stick (South), Scottsdale (m)
20. Ventana Canyon (Canyon), Tucson (m)
21. Gold Canyon Golf Resort (Dinosaur Mountain), Gold Canyon (m)*
22. SunRidge Canyon, Fountain Hills (m)
23. Grayhawk (Talon), Scottsdale (m)
24. TPC Scottsdale (Champions), Scottsdale (m)*
25. Wildfire at Desert Ridge (Faldo), Phoenix

I'd rate Raven@Verrado in the Top 10 in this list.

I haven't had the opportunity to play very many of the private courses in the state (FH/Canyon, Gallery North, Quintero, Rim Club) but I have played virtually all of the public offerings and would say my Top 25 is roughly ...

Top 5:

WeKoPa Cholla
WeKoPa Saguaro
Troon North Monument
Raven at Verrado
Southern Dunes

Second Five:

Ritz-Carlton GC at Dove Mountain Saguaro/Tortolita
Troon North Pinnacle
Ventana Canyon Mountain
Grayhawk Raptor
Wildfire Faldo

Third Five:

Golf Club of Estrella
Vista Verde
Trilogy Vistancia
Talking Stick North
Grayhawk Talon

Fourth Five:

TPC Scottsdale Stadium
del lago
Boulders South
Arizona National
Stoneridge

Fifth Five:

Boulders North
TPC Scottsdale Champions
SunRidge Canyon
Aguila
Vistoso


Notable public options I have not played: Apache Stronghold, Longbow

[Andy Troeger]

Rob,
I almost put in a comment about excluding the par threes...and I think the 7th is a fabulous driving hole with multiple options, but I'll stand by the other 12.

I would be more sympathetic if there were better recovery options from the desert. I've had others tell me that they've thinned out the vegetation a bit in the past couple years, which might make a difference. The lack of recovery options is a problem on many of these desert courses, so its not unique to DF. When I played if you missed a fairway it was basically unplayable, if you found the ball at all.  It would be a better course for Match Play, but I'd never get to see the last few holes! I think what might be risk/reward for some is "hit and hope" for me, which isn't fun.

[Rob Bice]

Rob,
I almost put in a comment about excluding the par threes...and I think the 7th is a fabulous driving hole with multiple options, but I'll stand by the other 12.

I would be more sympathetic if there were better recovery options from the desert. I've had others tell me that they've thinned out the vegetation a bit in the past couple years, which might make a difference. The lack of recovery options is a problem on many of these desert courses, so its not unique to DF. When I played if you missed a fairway it was basically unplayable, if you found the ball at all.  It would be a better course for Match Play, but I'd never get to see the last few holes! I think what might be risk/reward for some is "hit and hope" for me, which isn't fun.

Andy-
I hear you, to each his own which is one of the beauties of golf.  The course is definitely challenging but I would say that the better recovery options are actually from the tee - ie, what you choose to hit!  I like the thought that goes into the tee ball at Desert Forest and I have hit plenty of shots into the desert.

[Tom Yost]

Matt:

You could subtitle this list, "Top 25 Reasons Tom Doesn't Live in Arizona".

I have never thought about all the courses in Arizona as a separate entity, but when you do it that way, they all seem depressingly alike.

This why Saguaro and Talking Stick are remarkable in their break from what has come before during the golf boom in Arizona. Call me a kool-aid drinker if you like, but I find their work to be a breath of fresh air and I think they should be included in any discussion of top golf courses in AZ.

I don't have much experience on the private side, but I can say I was quite disappointed with Desert Highlands. I found it to be quite difficult and not particularly fun to play.  Too many cape style holes with long shots into narrow greens fronted by seriously unforgiving bunkers.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom Y:

It might be interesting if you read Doak's critique on DH in CG.

I like the course because it really provides a slew of options -- no doubt it's tough with many raised greens.

Let's face it -- the 1st hole is a blast to play and there are a number of other holes I can mention too. Maybe another
round there would do the trick for you.

Steve:

Fine choices you made -- albeit most of them in the public category. The elite of AZ golf is in the private domain though.

Rob B:

You say lack of love for Desert Forest. How so ?

I have it listed -- not top ten mind you but as I said the AZ golf scene has really accelerated since the time when DF was really the 800-pound gorilla on the scene.

Please specify off my listing what courses you see as being below the likes of Desert Forest.

It's not really a "demotion" -- rather a "promotion" of what has since come on the scene. A great example of that is what Lefty and Stephenson did with WR's Lower layout. Why that layout doesn't get more love nationally is testament to the bias that so many people have against desert golf in my mind.

Jason:

Interesting comment on Apache Stronghold but plenty of people routnely dismiss -- albeit because few can get on --the qualities of trhe 36 holes at Whisper Rock. The combo there is just a tad behind the likes of Winged Foot and that's no hyperbole on my part. When you say the state if the home of the Doak 5 course -- please don't show your ignorance so glaringly until you have played a far more representative sampling. No disrespect intended.

I like AS and would have it among the top ten if it was really in consistent shape -- that's not the case and who knows if it will ever be.

[Morgan Clawson]

Matt and Andy -

You both placed Whisper Rock high on your lists.

My understanding is that Phil Mickelson had a hand in the design of 1 of the 2 courses.

Can you can comment on the extent of his involvement?

If he was extensively involved, it may indicate that he's got some talent in course design.

[Andy Troeger]

Rob,
Certainly to each their own. I can see how others wouldn't share my thoughts on Desert Forest. It was built to be a challenging course, so that does go with the territory. I can see what you're saying about the tee shots, but to me "recovery" isn't the word I would use. They do provoke some thought, but penalize poor execution regardless of the strategy!

Morgan,
I've only played Whisper Rock Upper, which is a Tom Fazio design. The Lower is the one that Mickelson contributed to. Perhaps ironically, I believe that the Upper is generally rated more highly, but the Lower is preferred by the members. Hoping to see the Lower soon.

Jason,
I'm not sure about #1, but if Apache were kept up in the manner of the rest of the elite in Arizona, it could certainly make my top five give or take. There's some good stuff out there.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Morgan

Here's a good article on Whisper Rock:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2009-01/gw20090126hawkins

Mickelson was definitely involved in the design of Lower.

Matt

I forgot that I have also played Desert Mountain Renegade and Geronimo, both of which I'd rate higher than Silverleaf on my list of privates.

[Matt_Ward]

Morgan:

The main area from what I understand is that Lefty really worked the greensites on the Lower. Made them blend into the desert without appearing to stand apart. Also, the drive zones on the Lower aren't easily seen from the tee -- you have to know where to shape shots and not get the advantage that too many desert courses use with a plethora of elevated tees.

Steve:

When you played Geronimo did you play the old 13th (long uphill par-4) and the short 14th (with the hidden bowl design) ?

They really made the course -- ditto for the champ tee on the long par-4 16th -- may not even be used now -- sort of like a balcony tee box just across the 15th green that few ever see.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

They changed all those holes on Geronimo?

The one time I played the course, I played with the director of golf and two Tour players, Jim Nelford and Danny Briggs.  The two of them played from ALL the way back, and Briggs shot 67 to set the course record.  It was quite a display of golf; I really wouldn't have thought anyone could play the course from those tees if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Not all -- but some.

I remember your comments well from CG -- too bad that Lyle and company had to play around with the layout -- I always liked the back nine at Geronimo. The long uphill 13th has a back tee box on the other side of entrance road and the short 14th -- which you wrote about in the review -- was one of Jack's best ever short type holes. When Chirichua came into existence they changed #14 -- #13 was changed to allow for more housing sites and the back tee and the area near it was eliminated. Still wonder about the champ tee at #16 and I have always believed thew 18th as a closing par-3 (with the statue of Geronimo in the rear) is even better than the final hole at Garden City -- which, as you and others know, is also a par-3.

One other thing -- the opening par-5 at geronimo really gets the day started in fine fashion -- get that early birdie because the next few holes really push the pedal hard.

[Carl Nichols]

Hey Matt-
How about a list of top US desert courses at some point?

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

Interesting comment on Apache Stronghold but plenty of people routnely dismiss -- albeit because few can get on --the qualities of trhe 36 holes at Whisper Rock. The combo there is just a tad behind the likes of Winged Foot and that's no hyperbole on my part. When you say the state if the home of the Doak 5 course -- please don't show your ignorance so glaringly until you have played a far more representative sampling. No disrespect intended.

I like AS and would have it among the top ten if it was really in consistent shape -- that's not the case and who knows if it will ever be.

Matt - given I have played 3 of your top five I am pretty comfortable with my assessment.  I do not think the gap between those courses and the courses I listed that could have been included in the top 25 is very large.  If I were given a choice between Ventana or Chiracaua the quality of course would play little factor in the decision - I like but do not love either.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

If you can't fathom the differences in terms of what is presented by Chirichua at DM and Ventana Canyon / Mtn then frankly you are not looking that hard enough. I think that there is a dismissal of desert golf as some sort of sideshow of constant similarity -- that's far from the case and many of the more recent courses have demonstrated that. If you see all at no better than a Doak 5 I would dare say that you need to play a good bit to make such an overreaching generalization.

Re-read Doak's comments on DH in CG. They still apply today. Nicklaus created a different style and presentation. It moved away from simply what Desert Forest provided and clearly was both evolutionary and revolutionary for it did.

Forest Highlands is a tour de force layout in the ponderosa pines of Flagstaff. Smartly routed and crafted -- Doak's comments, also in CG, speak to that and a few other issues of note. In regards to the complex at WR -- it is truly first rate and validates why so many top tier players prefer to call it home.

AZ golf may not be everyone's cup of tea -- but it's a good bit better than a broad-brushed Doak 5 assessment in my mind.

One final thing -- I'd love to see AS move up but turf quality and daily commitment to maintaining it is lacking and frankly until that changes, if it ever does, will likely mean more of a "wish" than a true reality for a better tomorrow there.

[Matt_Ward]

One of the more fascinating stories of AZ golf is the multi-course complex at Desert Mtn.

Hats off to Lyle Anderson for the innovative effort with Team Nicklaus when Renegade opened. Many people were not
prepared for what it provided -- building elasticity with different tees and pin locations depending upon skill level.

Cochise is more of "scenic" package with less of the overall demands and served well for the Tradition event which was held there for a number of years.

No doubt Jack was still bent on bringing forward tough layouts -- Geronimo in its original form was a real tiger to play -- but since the facility has multiple courses I see no reason why it was not accepted for being how solid a course it is. Bethpage Black is like that and no doubt Medinah #3 and Winged Foot / West would also fall into that category where Too bad the 13th and 14th holes were changed to handle other considerations. The short 14th with its hidden-bowl green was quite special and out of the norm for Nicklaus then -- or even now.

Apache is liked by many members and no doubt is more of the user-friendly variety.

Outlaw changed the dynamic even more so. Here Nicklaus was not forced to deal with housing flanking the course and could allow for major ground game options in so many ways. The severity of the course wasn't from a driver perspective but from an approach shot situation as greens tilted and fell off in plenty of ways without abutting rough to stop those shots that were hit just a tad offline.

No doubt classic lovers of the Northeast school of design thought will have a hard time wrapping their arms around such golf but Lyle Anderson certainly deserves credit for bringing to bear plenty of movement on that front with the complex there. One final thing -- his efforts at DH also deserve praise for what it did therre too.

[Peter Ferlicca]

Matt,

I would also love to see an ALL DESERT COURSE LIST.  Living in the Coachella Valley, I think a lot of the top courses here rank up there, if not better than the Scottsdale area.  I would imagine that you would include courses in these areas; Coachella Valley, Phoenix, Tucson, Las Vegas, Albuquerque. 

The one area of question which includes a course both Matt and I enjoy is Sand Hollow Golf Resort.  IMO, it should qualify being in St. George Utah.

Since you have played pretty much all the desert courses, I think a OVERALL TOP 20 would do just fine.  THANKS.

I hope Stone Eagle is #1, haha.

[Ken Moum]

Matt, just teasing. I am available for editing duties. Wish I had access to your list next week, but I will definitely try to make it back down to Southern Dunes. Anybody know if they've put in a restroom or forward tees on the course yet? That was an issue for my Mom last time I was there (course designed for men only so I guess they figured a nearby cacuts would suffice).

Yup, they have forward tees, and my wife liked the course.  She'd have been happier if the forward tees were under 5,000 yards, but she played fairly well anyway.

I believe there's a restroom as well.

K

[Mark Smolens]

Thanks Ken, I will put it on my list for later this week. . .

[Don_Mahaffey]

...Apache is liked by many members and no doubt is more of the user-friendly variety...

Matt,
The Arizona Golf Association held one of their more important tournaments at AS back in '00 or '01 when the course was still in good condition. The scores were very high and I remember it took close to 6 hours to play. The greens were fast, the wind blew a bit, and it sure didn't seem all that user friendly. Just because a course gives some room to play doesn't make it easy. In fact, I'd say that sometimes that width can lure a good player into reaching back a little more then he should.

I've played most of the courses on your list and there isn't the slightest doubt in my mind AS would be the best in the bunch if the tribe knew what they had and had the willingness to take care of the course. Sadly, that will never happen and only those who had a chance to see AS in the early days will remember how great the course was.

[Matt_Ward]

Don:

The quote you posted from me refers to my comments on the Apache course at Desert Mountain.

I do agree w you on the potential of AS (the one in Globe) -- the course, in its earliest days (fortunately I too played it then) was quite good -- not great mind you -- but playable enough to allow the inherent design elements to shine. I don't know where I would rank the course specifically if everything was top shelf -- but I would say it would certainly make a top ten placement if only the slightest amount of effort were applied for something a bit more than what is there now.

Don, our discussion goes to prove how a modicum of consistentcy in the turf quality is so helpful -- I can remember saying many of the same things about Bethpage Black years before most people knew about the course and the sheer potential it possessed.

PFerlicca:

I'm going to have think hard about that -- the all-desert listing would be a tough one not only because of the competition but because desert locaes are not just relegated to the southwest -- there are high desert locations in other parts of the USA and would need to be included. Likely my aiming point would be the SoCal desert area, lower UT, the applicable AZ area and those spots in NM and even TX that would be considered.

Like you I am a big time fan of Stone Eagle -- is it #1 ?

Let me ponder the possibilities.

[Ken Moum]

Kavanaugh's Vista Verde ends up on most people's lists of AZ courses, but I so far haven't been there.

I have a couple of questions. 

How many of you have played his course at Longbow?

How do you rate it?

I recently played Southern Dunes for the first time, loved it, but I also think a lot of Longbow.  Maybe I give it too much credit because it's not a housing development course.

TIA,

Ken

[Matt_Ward]

Ken:

Longbow is a good solid alternative for those who want a more reasonable golf option in the area along with the lack of housing clutter you mentioned.

The question on this thread was listing the best in AZ -- Longbow is not, in my mind, a top 25 consideration -- the overall depth of golf options in the state is THAT good.

[Brian Stewart]

Ken,

I would agree with Matt that Longbow, while good, just doesn't fit in.  Admittedly it has been several years now since I have played it but I have played nearly every course on his list and cannot see it being put ahead of any of them.  My primary residence is about 2 miles dead west of Vista Verde but have only played it twice.  It is a nice course that I often choose to play if there is an event at my club that I didn't have time to play in.  I'd put it way ahead of Longbow but it is probably a more difficult walk due to some gaps in holes. 

Matt,

It would be hard for me to substantial disagree with any of your ratings outside of personal preference.  The only one that I'm truly surprised by is Chaparral Pines as I don't particularly care for it and don't know many that do.  It just seems overly penal in many cases.  I'm slightly surprised to see Desert Highlands and Estancia in the first five as well but that is much harder to argue and definitely a matter of personal preference. 

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