[Matt_Ward]

At this time of year plenty of people are heading south -- and one state that gets plenty of action is The Grand Canyon State.

I've been to Arizona countless times over the last 30 years -- played just about all the key courses and have seen the spike on the public side. In years past, the private-gated communities dominated -- now other players are on the scene.

So here goes ...

One final note -- My listing is in groupings of five (5) -- and in no particular order within the grouping itself.ARIZONA GOLF COURSES ...
 
FIRST FIVE
Whisper Rock / Lower
Forest Highlands / Canyon
Desert Mtn / Chirichua
Desert Highlands
The Estancia Club


SECOND FIVE
Stone Canyon
Silverleaf
Pine Canyon
Desert Mtn / Geronimo
Whisper Rock / Upper

 
THIRD FIVE
Desert Forest
The GC at Chapparal Pines
The Gallery / North
The Rim
Desert Mtn / Renegade


FOURTH FIVE
Southern Dunes
The Golf Club
Desert Mtn / Outlaw
Vista Verde
We-ko-pa / Saguaro
 

FIFTH FIVE
Desert Mtn / Outlaw
Quintero
Troon
Ritza Carlton at Dove Mtn (Saguaro / Tortolita)
Blackstone
 

*Would include Apache Stronghold if it ever gets into shape ...

[Mark Smolens]

Is there some reason that Outlaw is in both the fourth and fifth groups? Perhaps one is the reverse Outlaw?

[Jud_T]

No love for Talking Stick North?

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

Mea culpa on my part -- Outlaw is in the 4th grouping and I have no issue with Jud' suggestion for Talking Stick North in the 5th grouping.

[Mark Smolens]

Matt, just teasing. I am available for editing duties. Wish I had access to your list next week, but I will definitely try to make it back down to Southern Dunes. Anybody know if they've put in a restroom or forward tees on the course yet? That was an issue for my Mom last time I was there (course designed for men only so I guess they figured a nearby cacuts would suffice).

[Matt_Ward]

Mark:

AZ golf has evolved nicely over the years -- 20 years ago you needed real networks to access so many of the places. That has changed for the better although a place like WR is not exactly hanging out the welcome sheet to those who are not members.

[George Pazin]

Two questions:

Which 5th would Apache Stronghold fall in, were its conditioning up to par?

Could you place the categories - maybe even just one of two of them - into some sort of context? In other words, are the top 5 courses in the top 100 overall? How about the bottom 5? Maybe guesstimate a Doak number for each category.

I'm guessing that even if you have played any of the handful of AZ courses I've played, those particular ones wouldn't make the top 25. None were standouts in any respect, though none were bad courses.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Only big omission I see is Seven Canyons. I know you're not a big fan, but I think its better than a few courses at the end of your list. Given your comparison of Desert Forest and SunRidge Canyon's narrowness, one still shows up on your list and the other doesn't!

Here's mine, with some notable omissions listed below. I do think width plays a bigger factor in my list than Matt.
FIRST FIVE:
Desert Mountain Renegade, Estancia, Forest Highlands Canyon, The Rim, We-Ko-Pa Saguaro
SECOND FIVE:
Desert Highlands, Desert Mountain Chiricahua, Forest Highlands Meadow, Ritz Carlton Dove Mountain, Whisper Rock Upper
THIRD FIVE:
Blackstone, Chaparral Pines, Desert Mountain Outlaw, Seven Canyons, Stone Canyon
FOURTH FIVE:
Apache Stronghold, Desert Forest, Gold Canyon Dinosaur Mountain, SunRidge Canyon, Vista Verde

NOT PLAYED: Whisper Rock Lower, Troon CC, Silverleaf, Pine Canyon, The Golf Club, Mirabel, The Gallery, Desert Mountain Geronimo

Edit: reviewed my list and noticed that I missed my actual placement of Apache Stronghold. It would still move up with TLC, but still merits inclusion.

[Jud_T]

Matt,

Wonder if it's just the narrowness which keeps Desert Forest out of the top tier for you.  What about the greens?

[Tim Bert]

Matt - for those of us less familiar with the market would you mind inserting public or private next to the course names?  For me these don't have the same name recognition as the list you posted for CA.  I get to AZ once or twice a year and interested in which of the top tier ones are open to the public.  Thanks!

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I'm glad you raised the point with Seven Canyons. But I see it very differently than you. It's more about the outside the property scenery than what exists from the design perspective from within.

Weiskopf has done fine work in AZ but Seven Canyons is not it in my mind. If you want to say it grabs a spot in the rear of the ratings bus so be it -- but for me it gets at best the last seat or two and no more.

Andy, you need to play Silverleaf to get a full impression on what Weiskopf is capable in doing.

I also like FH / Highlands but it's a good bit less than its big brother and with Pine Canyon nearby it sucks the oxygen out of the high ponderosa offerings.

Frankly, I think you have drank too much C&C kool-aid if you see Saguaro in the top five in the state. It's good but not THAT good.  Likely a visit to play WR / Lower would change something in that regard.  Your omission of Geronimo at DM is also an eye-opener -- better by miles beyond tghe likes of Gold Canyon Dinosaur Mtn and a few of the others you mentioned. Personal tastes I guess.

In regards to Desert Forest I like the narrow approach there -- Red Lawrence opened the door to what later became an evolutionary trend for desert golf design. You need to play the Gallery / North but frankly a place like Mirabel is TF eye-candy to the max. I didn't rate it because other options are better either in the valley or throughout the state.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

You could subtitle this list, "Top 25 Reasons Tom Doesn't Live in Arizona".

I have never thought about all the courses in Arizona as a separate entity, but when you do it that way, they all seem depressingly alike.

[Tony Weiler]

Good post, Matt.  One thing that has always struck me is the rankings in AZ are heavy with Private Courses, and your list seems to echo that.  For instance, GD’s list of top AZ courses in its 09-10 “Best in State” has its first public course, La Paloma, listed at #24 (and only has two public on the list)!  That is really hard to believe, but again, your list includes only Southern Dunes, WKP Saguaro, and Vista Verde that are public?  Isn’t that a problem, or are there so many other courses in Az. beyond the “top 25” that are worthwhile form an architecture/playing standpoint that it doesn’t matter?  Is access difficult at the Arizona privates (not seeking it here, just curious as I've never tried).  Thanks. 

[Andy Troeger]

Tom D.,
I tend to agree that a lot of the courses are similar. In some respects, the reasons that DM Renegade and perhaps even Saguaro make the top of my list are that they're the most unique of the desert courses. I've found the higher elevation layouts to be more memorable.

Matt,
Saguaro isn't getting bumped from the top five. Its actually one of two that I do think create some separation from the pack, with Forest Highlands Canyon being #1 by a fair margin. You'll notice I don't include Talking Stick at all, in regards to your C&C comment. I just see Saguaro differently than you. DM Geronimo should have been on my "haven't played" list--I certainly expect that a few of those would merit consideration. I tend to agree with you about Seven Canyons--the thing that makes it special is the off-course scenery.  The design isn't great, but its still worth a mention in the second ten.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

If / when you play WR / Lower one of your top five will say adios. I can understand your LOVE for Saguaro but frankly the first third of the course is a real letdown. The best comes after that long slow start. No problem -- just see things differently. I too like FH / Highlands but WR / Lower is the best course in the state for me -- Mickelson and Gary Stephenson get little mention here for what they created there.

Too bad when you play Geronimo - the original layout was something of note. Unfortunately, Lyle and the group there decided to bag Jack's solid long uphill par-4 13th and the short par-4 14th was one of Team Nicklaus best short holes I have played. Doak commented on it briefly in his CG review.

Seven Canyons just proves that too many raters value off-course scenery and don't focus on what the actual course provides. For Seven Canyons the push from the scenery likely provides 75% of why people like the place. Go play Silverleaf when you can -- one of Weiskopf's better layouts -- just get lost in the sauce with the other layouts in and around the Pima Rd area.

Tony:

Yes, AZ does have a really solid roster of private clubs. But, the public side is well represented -- just not enough of them have the goods at the highest of high levels to crack a top 25 for my tastes. Take a place like Raven at Verrado -- certainly would be a good play for most people and not cost a second mortgage to do it. Private golf was even more dominant 20 years ago -- things have certainly changed because the public roster is really good just below the elite of elite places

In regards to a number of the private ones I listed they are not as exclusive as places here in the northeast corridor. That means they don't take blood samples to determine if you can play. A few are more or less geared only towards members / guests -- places like WR is a good example of that. There are other gated community courses where time of year has an impact on access points. For many it might just mean having their pro contact the club and see if a recip deal can be done.

Judd:

Desert Forest does deserve to be mentioned but it's not about the layout falling as the others have really excelled in so many ways.

Tim:

The only public ones I have listed are the following ...

Southern Dunes
Vista Verde
We-ko-pa / Saguaro
Ritza Carlton at Dove Mtn (Saguaro / Tortolita)

*You might be able to access The Gallery / North in the Tucson area -- maybe someone can outline if an outside play option is available there. It was years ago.

Tom:

You need to return and see what the differences are.

Anyone erroneously lumping desert golf as one of the same thing -- save for the differences seen with the ponderosa pine layouts is really in need of another serious visit.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

You asked ...

Two questions:

Which 5th would Apache Stronghold fall in, were its conditioning up to par?

Could you place the categories - maybe even just one of two of them - into some sort of context? In other words, are the top 5 courses in the top 100 overall? How about the bottom 5? Maybe guesstimate a Doak number for each category.

I'm guessing that even if you have played any of the handful of AZ courses I've played, those particular ones wouldn't make the top 25. None were standouts in any respect, though none were bad courses.

*****

Hard to say for sure -- I've played AS and only shortly after it opened several years ago was the turf quality good enough for a rating purpose. In a top listing of 25 courses -- I'd say it's somewhere in the 4th grouping -- of course, if optimum firm and fast conditions prevailed on a steady basis -- it would likely move up -- just how much depends on seeing it firsthand with such elements included.

I can't speak top what you have or have not played. If you can point out the ones you liked the best from your visits there I can discuss.

In regards to some sort of perspective -- my first five would all be within my personal top 100 in the USA. The second five has some possibilities for inclusion but likely no more than 1 or 2. In regards to Doak rating numbers -- my first five are in the 8 range -- with WR / Lower being a 9.

[Carl Nichols]

Matt:

You could subtitle this list, "Top 25 Reasons Tom Doesn't Live in Arizona".

I have never thought about all the courses in Arizona as a separate entity, but when you do it that way, they all seem depressingly alike.

Or at least why you don't live there in the summer.  Right now these courses, even if very similar, look at lot better than no golf at all.   

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,

Without wanting to get this off-track too far, if you were to include New Mexico courses on this top 25 list, how many would make it?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I don't want to veer off in different directions because then others ask similar questions for other states.

Black Mesa would make it -- likely the only NM course capable in getting into AZ's top ten. I'd have to give it some thought but for me BM could crack AZ's top five -- I can see a place like The Estancia Club being lower than it -- although a tough call between the likes of BM, DH and DM/Chirichua.

Paa-Ko Ridge is a possibility but it would be far lower because the AZ golf scene is very competitive.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Greetings from sunny(and somewhit chilly,at  least for here) AZ.

I haven't played all the privates to comment on the list. From the ones that I've played, I like Desert Forest,Silverleaf,Gallery North, Blackstone,Superstition Mountain Prospector*, Quintero* and Mirabel, in that order.

*now semi-private

For the public courses, here's GW's list:

Arizona
1. We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro), Fort McDowell (No. 75 m)
2. Ritz-Carlton GC at Dove Mountain (Saguaro/Tortolita), Marana (m)*
3. Troon North (Monument), Scottsdale (m)
4. We-Ko-Pa (Cholla), Fort McDowell (m)
5. TPC Scottsdale (Stadium), Scottsdale (m)
6. Ventana Canyon (Mountain), Tucson (m)
7. Talking Stick (North), Scottsdale (m)
8. Troon North (Pinnacle), Scottsdale (m)  
9. Southern Dunes GC, Maricopa (m)
10. Superstition Mountain (Prospector), Superstition Mountain (m)*
11. Boulders Resort (North), Carefree (m)
12. La Paloma GC (Ridge/Canyon), Tucson (m)
13. Laughlin Ranch, Bullhead City (m)
14. Superstition Mountain (Lost Gold), Superstition Mountain (m)*
15. Grayhawk (Raptor), Scottsdale (m)
16. Golf Club of Estrella, Phoenix (m)
17. Longbow GC, Mesa (m)
18. Boulders Resort (South), Carefree (m)
19. Talking Stick (South), Scottsdale (m)
20. Ventana Canyon (Canyon), Tucson (m)
21. Gold Canyon Golf Resort (Dinosaur Mountain), Gold Canyon (m)*
22. SunRidge Canyon, Fountain Hills (m)
23. Grayhawk (Talon), Scottsdale (m)
24. TPC Scottsdale (Champions), Scottsdale (m)*
25. Wildfire at Desert Ridge (Faldo), Phoenix

I'd rate Raven@Verrado in the Top 10 in this list.

[Rob Bice]

I am really surprised by the lack of love for Desert Forest on these lists.  The layout is fantastic, very few forced carries, conditions are typically fast and firm, interesting strategic options off the tee, ground game is almost always an option and overall the course isn't overly penal to shorter hitters.  I see one reference to the narrowness of fairways - aside from 13 which holes are overly narrow?

A  great challenge for good players but very enjoyable for higher handicaps as well.  I am not here to rag on other courses but was shocked to see some of the names above Desert Forest.  Oh well.

[Jason Topp]

Matt:  

Pretty interesting list.  I think of Arizona as the home of the Doak 5 - good courses with not a ton to distinguish one desert course from another.

I have only played 6 off the list:


Desert Mtn / Chirichua
Desert Highlands
The Estancia Club

Southern Dunes
Vista Verde
We-ko-pa / Saguaro
 
Others I would think about including:

- Raven at Sabino Springs (I think it is called something different now) - Seems to get mixed reviews but was probably my favorite in Tucson
- Ventana Canyon Mountain -  some very solid golf although the 3rd is a gimmick.  I really like the 16-18 finish.
- We-Ko -Pa Cholla - I've played it twice and, while I find the center islands of desert a bit repetitive, I consider it a solid challenge
- Vistoso - solid test, rather unremarkable ground

Probably not on the list but close

- Estrella Mountain (the upscale course) - my memory of the course is hazy, but I really liked it when I played 10-15 years ago.
- Tucson Country Club - a bit too bland but a nice traditional club.


I have not played but might deserve mention:

Golf Club of Scottsdale - looked cool from the road.  (this may be on your list as "The Golf Club")
Phoenix Country Club - I have only seen the course from nearby (I was supposed to play it last weekend but wound up in Duluth, MN instead) and do not know if it is good enough to make a list like this.

Thanks for sharing these lists.

[Matthew Petersen]

Matt, just teasing. I am available for editing duties. Wish I had access to your list next week, but I will definitely try to make it back down to Southern Dunes. Anybody know if they've put in a restroom or forward tees on the course yet? That was an issue for my Mom last time I was there (course designed for men only so I guess they figured a nearby cacuts would suffice).

Mark,

They have an on course restroom and forward tees now.

A long way from anything, but a great facility.

[Jason Topp]

I think a well conditioned Apache Stronghold would top this list, based on my experiences with 3 of the top 5.

[Andy Troeger]

I see one reference to the narrowness of fairways - aside from 13 which holes are overly narrow?

The other 17...

Its a great course for "short and straight," but for wayward drivers like me it requires a box of golf balls to be safe. If I ever were to play it again I'd take out the driver and 3-wood and take my chances that way.

Slight exaggeration certainly on the starting comment of course, but I do think the fast conditions just make the narrowness more pronounced.

And the majority of DG members like it better than I do...probably all of them.

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