[Andy Troeger]

Matt
As I said in the previous post, it seems like it should be possible to build a great desert course. I think the lack of turf is the primary culprit--its tougher to build a playable course that's still interesting if you are limited in the amount of playable area you can use. And ceiling is probably the wrong word--because I have Black Mesa in that upper echelon and its a desert course.

In terms of AZ courses, I have 2 in my personal top 50 played, and 16 between 51-125. Not many make an overall US top 100, but a lot compete for the next level.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

At least your mind is open to the possibility -- I would dare say that playability is a feature for the courses I have already highlighted -- so long as the appropriate tee boxes are played.

Desert golf suffers because of bias among too many people -- far better than it once was and like I said if Outlaw were played by a good deal more people they would understand what I have just posted.

[Jim Franklin]

The desert courses miss because personal preferences dictate it. I remember playing with a pro at a desert course and him telling me "it amazes me when a panelist calls to play my course and then tells me that he hates desert courses". Why would you A. tell th epro you hate desert course and B. why would you go play golf in the desert? Go to Florida in the winter if you hate desert courses. I really enjoy the desert and think many more should be rated higher like Renegade.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Well said.

Not to blame Tom D but his comments on desert golf influenced people.

I think the carry over is based on limited sample sizes by those who have played the more recent crop of courses.

I mean how does one explain what GW raters did in having WR / Upper rated considerably highere than the original 18 there ?

Desert Mtn gets panned for a number of hard to fathom reasons.

Renegade is quite entertaining -- Geronimo was something when it first opened before the changes -- Chirichua is one of Jack's top tier designs from the 75+ ones of his I have played and Outlaw goes in a different direction that embraces so many of the key concepts that people on this site want -- but then they don't accept it and promote it higher. Go figure.

There are also other public play options that are very, very good -- Vista Verde, Saguaro at We-ko-pa is good in my mind but frankly there's too much brownie points tied to the involvement of C&C there -- I believe they have done better elsewherel and not just at Sand Hills and the like. You have The Ravem at Verrado and Engh's layout at Blackstone is also well done.

No doubt the lovers of Desert Forest can see that layout as still the top dog but The Grand Canyon State is far more than just a plethora of Doak 5-6 rated level courses -- there are no less than half a dozen gems I would easily have in my personal top 100 in the USA.

[Jim Franklin]

I have a half dozen AZ courses in my Top 100 as well and there are many more I want to see.

[Andy Troeger]

Jim,
I'm not sure that I agree entirely. I absolutely believe there are golfers (including panelists) that don't like desert golf. But for those that hate it, there are others like you and Matt that love the genre. I think there's a big difference between playing a few desert rounds per year and living in the desert and playing most of your golf here. Even if I humor Matt and assume that Whisper Rock Lower would make my top 100 level, that would only be three from Arizona including Saguaro which is admittedly on the edge. I do have a lot of courses that just miss, however, so the difference between a neutral position and that extra nudge (on average) that gets a course onto a list can be pretty small.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Andy can humor me all he wants -- the sad fact is that many people sample a very tiny small number of desert courses and from those limited experiences they draw conclusion -- wrong ones in many cases in my mind. Still makles me scratch my head that WR / Lower is not even seen by GW raters as being ahead of its sister layout.

The silly idea that AZ only has at most Doak 5-6 rated courses is laughable because so much of the golf landscape in the state has evolved and is far more than just the solo act of a Desert Forest.

Desert golf is not the penal extremes that people speak about -- ditto for those courses in other areas of the state -- in the Prescott, Sedona and Flagstaff areas, to name just three.

AZ golf has come far from the arrival of a Desert Highlands as Doak alluded to in CG -- my hope is that more open eyes and minds can rightly elevate those other courses we have mentioned here.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
You might already know this, but most guest play at Whisper Rock is on the Upper, whereas most member play is on the Lower. I do think its very possible for one course to be better for most people for the one round experience, whereas another is better for repeat play. Unfortunately I think the ratings by nature tend toward those "one round" places since that's most often what panelists get to do.

Arizona has courses that are higher, but it still has a lot of courses in that 5-6 range. FH Canyon is probably an 8 for me, and I probably like it better than most. If an average course is supposed to be a 3, I'm not so sure what's wrong with having a bunch of 6's. Most of the courses on the Modern 101-200 list are in that range, right?

The main point of the previous post is that preferences work both ways--some people may dislike desert golf, but others like it more. I think it balances out.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt/Andy/Jim/ Dave

Of all the courses I've played so far in AZ, I can't think of a course more fun to play than Blackstone.

Another fun course is Forrest Richardson's Arizona Grande, formerly known as Phantom Horse.

I'm going to try and visit Southern Dunes and Vista Verde before I leave.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Enjoy Vista Verde and Southern Dunes.

Andy:

It doesn't really balance out because many people coming to AZ think of golf in the desert as being fairly one dimensional and in my experiences the sheer diversity of the courses is now present.

WR / Lower is for me at least a top 50 layout in the USA -- no question about it.

[Jim Franklin]

Steve -

I have not played Blackstone yet, but have heard good things about it and it is on my "to do" list. Vista Verde and Southern Dunes are fun.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Among your personal top 100 USA -- can you list for me the ones from AZ that would make that august grouping !

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
It does balance out, you just happen to be toward one end of the scale. I don't expect you to agree, but that's the way I see it.

Steve,
Blackstone is definitely one of the most enjoyable courses out there. Folks can say what they like about Engh's design, but for me he does "fun" as well as anyone!

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

It doesn't balance out because you have raters who have played far fewer AZ courses than I have and really can't demonstrate to me the wherewithal to fairly understand how desert golf has evolved a much greater distance than they can likely comprehend. The anti-desert bias lives with many folks.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

The AZ courses in my personal Top 100 are:

Forest Highlands (Canyon)
Stone Canyon
Estancia
Whisper Rock (lower)
Desert Forest

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

No real issue with your listing -- I would likely add one of the DM courses - I have always had a hankering for Chirichua -- just a great change of pace hole by Nicklaus with the 2nd there. And plenty of other wonderful holes that are quite varied -- both in design elements and change of pace characteristics.

I would also see major competition with the likes of Estancia and the likes of Silverleaf -- the latter is a special Weiskopf course that generally sinks from the view.

[Jim Franklin]

I have only played Renegade at DM and really liked the variety, but it falls outside the 100. I will certainly play Chirichua next time I visit the area. I have never tried Silverleaf and will add to my list as well. Like I said, I love desert golf and Arizona in particular. My kids love it too so who knows, maybe I will retire there.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

You can be sure that other retirees (hint / hint me !) will be joining you there.

The courses I mentioned are well worth playing - ditto for Outlaw at DM which if it didn't have the Nicklaus
tag attached to it would likely draw even more support than it does.

Can't understand that.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Blackstone is well done by Engh and often gets little mention because so few people see Engh outside the Colorado area where much of his efforts are located.

Unfortunately, the west valley area gets little attention from many on this site and elsewhere.

A pity indeed.

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