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Niall C

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2011, 05:13:14 PM »
What did Braid inherit at Gleneagles when the new owners brought him in?

Tony

I know where you're coming from on this, however I'm pretty sure he started with a clean sheet even though it is possible someone looked at the land before him. As usual, don't have my notes to hand but from what I've seen in the National Archives no other architect gets a mention apart from Maj. C.K Hutchison who was there at the start as Director of Golf or some such title and was involved in employing Braid.

FWIW MacKenzie gives Hutchison most if not all of the credit for the Queens while he "blames" Braid for the Kings. Clearly MacK had the hump with Braid and its interesting how many times they cut across each other in architecture jobs.

Niall

Sean_A

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2011, 07:26:24 PM »
Niall

Your understanding of Gleneagles concurs with mine.  Although, I do strongly suspect that Hutchison should probably be given co-credit for both courses. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Tom MacWood

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2011, 10:14:36 PM »
If I remember correctly who actually made that initial routing is a matter of speculation.

Since he signed and dated the drawing - it may not be 100% conclusive - but I know where I would place my wager.

He signed and dated it? I don't think I've seen that routing. Could you post it?

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2011, 11:15:22 PM »
Tom, Tony and Niall
Mac and Gleneagles?
In the Spirit of St Andrews Mac states that he was the first golf architect called in there. He does not say why he didn't get the job though, but goes on to say that the Kings course looked engineered and was designed by two many cooks, but credits the Queens to C K Hutchison, although he manages to spell the Major's name wrong!

In a Golf Illustrated (US version) article on Gleneagles from June 1925, there was a mention of Mackenzie and Colt together.

"Dr Mackenzie and Mr. H. S. Colt, well known as having laid out many of the most important golf courses of the world, expressed the view that the ground at Gleneagles possessed the natural features which golf imperatively demands - fine resilient turf on gravelly sub-soil readily drained and therefore unaffected by heavy rain. And they further stated that in the infinite variety of the ground for golf, the undulating character of the surface, the bold natural plateaus, the sandy ridges and hillocks, the rough hollows and ravines, the heather, the whin and the broom, the bracing character of the air and the magnificence of the surroundings, Gleneagles could be made to be absolutely unrivalled among countryside courses."

What to take from this? It seems that the article appears to quite from a written report, seeing they use the phrase "and they further stated". One can only surmise that either Colt and Mac were both consulted originally - either separately or together and they submitted a report or reports. Wonder if they still exist in a dusty box somewhere in the highlands?

Tom
What is the mystery about Crystal Downs do you think?

DMoriarty

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2011, 01:11:28 AM »
Ian,

Who signed and dated what, and when?

Thanks.  

____________________________________________________

Generally, I'd say that focusing on attribution and credit is the wrong way to go about it.   That gets into a semantics discussion and usually just comes down to who the various discussants want to credit, regardless of who did what.  

Trying to figure out what happened without worrying about who gets credit seems a better way to go about it, and I'd say that there is tremendous about of mystery as to what happened and why at many of these courses, especially the early ones.  Shinnecock's history is a good example.  The course was well publicized from the beginning, the first history was written by the former founding secretary of the club, one of the designers involved also wrote about it, yet the early history was still commonly muddled and misunderstood.   These early p just didn't seem to realize that what they were doing would be considered important to future generations, particularly regarding their golf courses.
__________________

A written plan does not necessarily resolve what might have happened. Not everyone worked off of written plans, and even when they did those plans weren't necessarily drawn in their own hand.  So far as I know, many of the plans for the George Thomas courses were created by Billy Bell, but surely Thomas had extensive input.  
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 02:00:19 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2011, 01:55:20 AM »
And besides this site is not devoted to 99.9% of the golf courses, it is devoted to the best of the best

Really?

I thought this site was devoted to golf course architecture, not just repetitive and incessant drooling over the same few high profile courses. How boring would that be?

Through this site I have built up a long list of fascinating looking courses I intend to visit over the next few years. Few of them are among the elite or would be considered the 'best of the best'; they do however, look great fun.


As for mysteries regarding the provenance of golf courses; so much is clearly lost in the mists of time in many instances. A day or so's consultancy on the feasibility of a course on a particular property by a subsequently famous architect is seized upon in later days and attribution afforded for the whole detailed 'design'.

In truth, haven't many courses with apparently grand pedigrees simply evolved from an initial basic layout and been tinkered with by generations of committees keen to make their mark?  I can think of several instances where a particular architectural feature is cited as an example of the original designer's 'genius', only to discover after a little research that it was introduced 30 years after the course's opening by a now anonymous greenkeeper or greens committee.

The thing is though - does it matter?  I don't think so.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 02:13:12 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2011, 04:49:47 AM »
These matters seem to be a constant merging of vision, design and field work.  To some degree it is a bit dopey to try and track down specific credit other than to acknowledge that the head of the firm should ALWAYS be given at least co-credit unless that person states otherwise. Although, I have long believed that some construction guys (heads of projects) should be given credit when an archie come to rely heavily on them.  Braid had Stutt; Dr Mac had various people including Maxwell; Ross had Hatch etc; Colt had Alison (who like Maxwell was considered a top archie in his own right) and Franks Bros.  But, above all must be the man who signs the cheques and for the purposes of most things other than detailed histories the club, the cheque signer is good enough to represent a particular work period.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 04:25:01 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Paul_Turner

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2011, 08:03:43 AM »
I agree regarding Colt & P.V.
Everything I've read, including C & W, credit Colt with the routing.

I have all three iterations.

Crumps initial routing clearly shows 1 - 4, many of the other holes including the 18th.
Colt's plan identifies the link of 5, 6 and the inclusion of the 10th, but much of the back nine did not get used

I've always thought the attribution was excellent in this case.

Ian

Ian
The back 9 is used...Colt's plan shows 10,11,12,15,16 and 17 (and part of 13) in the correct places.   Different from the stick drawing.  The first iteration doesn't show 8 and 9 which are in Colt's plan.

I think Colt basically pulled the routing together into a cohesive 18.  Which was then later altered in routing terms at the 13th and 14th.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 08:10:15 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tom MacWood

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2011, 09:08:22 AM »
Who is responsible for that first iteration is a matter of speculation. I looked at it again, and its not signed or dated, at least I couldn't find a signature or date. There is a note on it from Crump: "Am not sure if the greens are marked on the map where I marked them on the ground---GAC"

That map is jumble of lines and circles. I count at least 30 greens marked on that map. At what point did Crump write that note, and what was marked out on the map when he wrote that note. He's not sure the greens are marked on the map? There are tons of greens marked on that map. And I see the hand of at least two people on that map. How do we know if some (or even the majority) of those holes and greens are not part of an early iteration of Colt's? The 5th hole is marked on that map. Who was Crump addressing in his note?

Like I said there are a lot of unknowns, and who is responsible for that map is another unknown.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 09:10:59 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2011, 09:48:46 AM »
Neil
I've not seen any evidence Mackenzie was involved at Crystal Downs. To my knowledge he never mentioned the course in his writing or listed it in his advertisements.

That quote about Colt & Mackenzie comes from a book 'Golf at Gleneagles' (1919) by RJ MacLennan. Supposedly Donald Matheson, of the British rail company, discovered the site in 1910, and proposed a hotel. I believe the golf project began around 1913. According to an article in The Times in 1921 initially they had chosen a lower site to build the golf course, but Colt found that site wanting and chose the present site on higher ground.

Circa 1913 Colt and Mackenzie were not partners; that didn't happen, officially anyway, until after WW1. So the question is were they together at Gleneagles, as a precursor to their partnership or were they bidding against each other, and Braid et al. Also what happened to Colt's involvement, and what exactly did he do, if anything, in addition to finding the site?

Mike Cirba

Re: Mysteries
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2011, 01:09:18 PM »
Mysteries??!?   You call those mysteries?? 

Lord knows we've collectively uncovered and dissected more detailed information about most of the clubs listed above in the original post than we know about the designs of many modern courses.

Two related courses I'm still waiting to hear more about their design origins and hoping we can have a good discussion about include Olympic Club Lake and San Francisco Golf Club.

Sean??   Phil??   Brad Anderson??

Brian_Sleeman

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2011, 03:53:35 PM »
Dr. MacKenzie died only a few years after the Downs was completed, and never saw it in its finished form anyway, so it's not likely he would have written a lot about it. 

The club history details how he was brought in and the time he spent on the property, along with the exciting information that he apparently painted what each green setting and complex should look like when it was finished.  That he did so for all 18 holes refutes the common idea that Maxwell did the back nine on his own.  Sadly no one I've spoken to knows where those paintings might be.

I'm not sure what else one would need.  Tom Doak and Mike DeVries know a lot more about this than I do, but the only mystery I can think of is the question of how closely construction foreman Perry Maxwell kept the finished product to what MacKenzie envisioned and designed for him.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2011, 05:23:40 PM »
Bill
Wasn't Mackenzie at Crystal Downs in 1928, and the first nine was completed the following year? When was the full 18 completed?

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2011, 08:43:41 PM »
Tom
This is what I posted in a thread on Crystal Downs in July last year:

The project came to Mackenzie via Robert Hunter who was contacted by Walkley Ewing, the founder of Crystal Downs, after they had built a 9 hole layout that Ewing felt did not do the land justice. Hunter recommended Mackenzie and Ewing arranged for Mackenzie to visit in October 1928 on his way back east from California. Mackenzie came with Maxwell. While we have no precise date for this we know Mackenzie was at Pasatiempo as late as 9 October and boarded the Aquitainia in NY on October 24. I would guess Mackenzie was likely there for a bit less than a week. Our timeline has no other dates for subsequent confirmed Mackenzie visits to Crystal Downs.

Ewing's first person account in the club history book says that:
 
"Crystal Downs created in Dr Mackenzie an instant impression near perfection and his enthusiasm for its possibilities caused him to delay his  sailing a boat or two and to settle in Zach's for a few days of intensive course designing. He and Perry Maxwell worked almost around the clock until they had laid down holes and torn them up and laid them down again, emerging finally with the eighteen hole layout that we know today."

So according to Ewing, Mackenzie and Maxwell jointly routed all 18 holes. Then Ewing continues:

"Mackenzie and Maxwell went ahead, and Mackenzie, an excellent artist, painted detailed pictures for the contours of every green."

From this it is apparent that there was a full set of green plans, and most likely a routing plan as Ewing still had to get support for the junking of the existing course and the finance to effectively build a new 18, and a routing of plan would have been of great assistance with this. He goes on:

"They agreed Maxwell would return in the spring to supervise the actual construction, and I agreed to see that they would get paid $5000 for these services, an extremely moderate fee for their time and expense in view of their unmatched qualifications."

Construction started soon thereafter and the first nine was playable by the end of summer 1929. The finance to build the second nine was looking doubtful but Ewing solicited support from a syndicate and so the second nine was built. Ewing said that "the new course would have been impossible in those years except for the continuing efforts of Perry Maxwell."

Did Mackenzie ever see the course during construction or at completion? We just don't know.

From this we can fairly reasonably conclude that Mackenzie and Maxwell jointly routed the course, Mackenzie drew his customary green plans and Maxwell built it over a couple of years, in two lots of nine holes. This from the founder's own pen, who was the man responsible for getting Mackenzie to the project.


I don't think there can be any doubt that Mackenzie was at Crystal Downs and as to how you apportion the attribution between Mackenzie and Maxwell is very hard to say. It was a project of their partnership and is probably best described as such.

Brian, agree with what you say generally, but describing Maxwell as a "construction foreman" would certainly undersell his role at CD. I think Mackenzie was quite happy to let his partners that were on site far more regularly than him - men like Robert Hunter at CD and Alex Russell at Royal Melbourne -a fair degree of latitude to change and adjust things as they saw fit. That way they would take the pressure off Mackenzie worrying about those minor details on projects where he never returned during or after construction.

I would be nice to find those CD green plans one day!

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2011, 09:02:59 PM »
Tom - Gleneagles
If the conjecture that Mackenzie collaborated in some way with Colt for the Eden Course at St Andrews is correct, then quite possibly Colt and Mac had a loose collaboration agreement of some form in 1913, and that they may have submitted for and inspected the Gleneagles site jointly. or perhaps they did it separately. Thanks for letting me know the quote was from Maclennan's book, have heard of it but don't have a copy. Certainly the way Maclennan words it, it sounds like a joint report.

According to Moreton's book The Golf Courses of James Braid, Braid and Hutchison were invited to submit plans for two courses at Gleneagles and made their first site inspection on December 29th, 1913. In April 1914 they were officially engaged for a fee of 120 pounds plus expenses. Carters were hired to construct the courses. According to Moreton, Hutchison produced detailed plans for the Kings Course, including long sections, and he was the construction supervisor during its building.

David_Elvins

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2011, 09:12:49 PM »
Tom,

Without opeining a can of worms, I believe that Colt's role in the design of the West course at Merion is an unsolved mystery. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2011, 09:43:29 PM »
The biggest mystery to me is that people who know very little about the process of designing and construction of golf courses can try to offer definitive conclusions about who was responsible for what on a project that was built 75-90 years ago, and where all of the players have long since passed away.

In my own designs, many of the key decisions were made in the field, and are not reflected on any scrap of paper anywhere.  They would only be on paper if I cared more about taking credit for these courses than I cared about getting them built ... which I don't.  I suspect it was the same for MacKenzie, Colt, and others.

As to Pine Valley, crediting both Crump and Colt is the only proper thing to do, in my mind.  At Crystal Downs, the same is true for MacKenzie and Maxwell.  Trying to properly divide the credit between them seems a total waste of time to me, and totally biased depending on the motives of the splitter.

The same will go for my own designs in years to come.  It's impossible for anyone on the outside to really know what of them was my idea, and what was added by Bruce Hepner, or Jim Urbina, or Eric Iverson, or Mike Clayton, or Jack Nicklaus, or Gil Hanse, or a dozen other talented people who worked on one or another of them.  I would not claim 100% credit for any of those courses, but I think it would be fair to claim at least 50% credit for each of them.  Truth told, that's all any architect should want.  But when people try to assign MORE than 50% of the credit to others, then you've got a knife fight on your hands.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2011, 09:44:45 PM »
Neil
When did Mackenzie and Maxwell dissolve their partnership?

Mac Plumart

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2011, 09:52:47 PM »
Tom Doak...maybe your post touches on some key issues.

A number of guys on this site like to research and analyze historical golf course information in an attempt to assign architectural credit to specific people.  You allude to the fact that that is an endless and un-winnable battle.

Maybe that is the whole point.  It gives them something to do to pass the time.  Heck, if they like to argue and debate...even better.

Frankly, it is kind of like playing golf.  If you are trying to master the game, it is an endless and un-winable battle.  But many fight that battle for their entire lives.  Hey, if it makes you happy and passes the time.  Go for it!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Mysteries
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2011, 10:02:59 PM »
Tom Doak,

While everything you say is true, I think you have to seperate architecture, in terms of the "as built", into Macro and Micro categories.

While individuals within your organization might have contributed, in varying degrees, to the design of Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal and other courses, those courses bear YOUR name as "THE" architect responsible for the finished product.

Maybe the title "THE" is akin to that of a coach who leads a team of athletes.
The "coach" is responsible for the game plan, even if it may be a collaborative effort, and with the exception of the Dallas Cowboys and Oakland Raiders, it's the "coaches" team, not the player's team.

As to the process of attribution, I think that's almost impossible to discover and detail.

In addition, once the "Architect" and/or his team complete the project and leave the site, changes are often made by Superintendents, owners, green committees and boards, hence "perfect" attribution is all but a myth.

On the other hand, I think we've seen that "accepted histories" have been flawed, incorrect in terms of facts and attribution, hence, I see no harm in furthering the process of due diligence.

Will we ever know the intimate details ?   I don't think so, but, I think it makes sense to try to acquire the most accurate information we can find in assembling an architectural history.

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #45 on: February 05, 2011, 11:38:51 PM »
Tom
When did Mac and Max dissolve their partnership? I don't know the answer to that one. If I had to guess I'd say it was only dissolved by Mackenzie's death in 1934.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2011, 12:38:36 AM »
There is a possibility these attribution battles could be harmful.  In the case of a working architect, such as Tom Doak or myself, the history of who did what is already confused.  It may be confused by associates who later go out on their own, and for that matter, it’s surprising how often a shaper, or in one case, a farmer hired to seed one of my courses was later heard to take credit for construction and design.  In other cases, shapers tell stories (sometimes even justified!) of how they “saved an architect’s ass” on this or that green or project. 
So, yes, motivation either at the time of design, or even much later can do much to confuse the old “who did what” scenario.  It is especially possible when the motivation is to make a name for oneself, either in biz for himself, or as a historical exert who obviously would love to get some notches in the bedpost by discovering “new” history.
I do agree it’s interesting, and promise to start/continue to write as much as I remember about what associates may have been most involved in any of my 50 designs, and if applicable, any particular “great ideas” they contributed.
As Tom and Pat hint, the architect of record probably wants to retain the credit he should get for signing a contract, marshalling the forces, etc.
But, here is the rub. I happened to have dinner with a former associate last night, and we did talk over the old times.  Even then, with no hard feelings about him splitting off, we still remembered a few things differently on some projects.  In truth, if he was “in the field” on certain projects at certain times, he may very well remember something better than I. In other cases, he may or may not know how a plan got drawn, if done by someone else in the office while he was out.
Trying to parse out the typical collaborative process (and throw in Owner, contractor, land planner (like Olmstead at Augusta – how do we know he didn’t dictate the land available for the golf course to MacKenzie?) will likely be futile, even if fun.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean_A

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2011, 04:32:10 AM »
Patrick

The problem I see with some guys digging around incessantly is much of the time facts are not uncovered (let alone finding the smoking gun) and indeed interpretation of reports are used to draw conclusions which are then presented as fact - often thereby making things even more muddled.

Neil

My take of the Dr Mac/P Maxwell relationship is of an equal partnership with Dr Mac being the draw name.  When did their partnership begin, what were the terms of the partnership and how many courses did they co-design?

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2011, 08:18:25 AM »
I have a couple of mysteries. I have been communicating by e-mail with the great grandson of William Connellan and he has indicated that Connellan built two private estate golf courses:  

A course in D.C. named "Friendship", for E.B. McLean the publisher.

A course on the estate of Cyrus Curtis , another great publishing magnate of Philadelphia.

I have located pictures that would indicate they were truly world class golf courses, but no record of the architects. Built sometime around 1920.


« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 08:22:29 AM by Bradley Anderson »

Mac Plumart

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Re: Mysteries
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2011, 08:33:44 AM »
I got three that I am interested in...maybe they are not mysteries, but I am unsure on the architect. 

Royal Blackheath

Royal Calcutta

North Berwick

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

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