[Jonathan Cummings]

I agree with the Wynn comments - solid middle-of-the-pack golf course.  But if you get a chance to eat dinner at the Wynn grill after golf don't miss it.  One of the best meals I've ever had!  JC

[Jim Nugent]

On the bright side, Clear Creek has clearly elevated the Silver's State's prospects. It would probably be a top 5 course in California, if the state line were shifted a tad.

Suppose we take Matt's CA top five, of CPC, Pebble, SFGC, Riviera and LACC.  Which does Clear Creek knock off the list? 

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

For what it's worth -- Clear Creek is a fantastic course but the top five I mentioned from CA are all beyond it -- that doesn't mean that CC isn't really special but I too would have to hear from Kyle on his rationale. Frankly, he dissed my take on Winchester but out of his own mouth he said he had only played half the courses I did mention.

[Kyle Henderson]

Jim:

For what it's worth -- Clear Creek is a fantastic course but the top five I mentioned from CA are all beyond it -- that doesn't mean that CC isn't really special but I too would have to hear from Kyle on his rationale. Frankly, he dissed my take on Winchester but out of his own mouth he said he had only played half the courses I did mention.

Winchester is a fine course. I just can't imagine it belongs given the courses left off of your list (granted you may not have played a few that I have).

Jim,

I honestly think Clear Creek Tahoe can be mentioned in the same class as Riviera, though it may not knock it off of the list. It's very, very great and could certainly be a part of the conversation if it were Californian, IMHO.

I haven't played LACC or SFGC...

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Here's what you should do -- it's e-z to cherry-pick off something from someone's list without posting your own.

I'd like to see your list because it then demonstrates what you emphasize for quality designs. You mentioned you have
only play half of my list -- if you have other candidates to mention -- please post them. I'd like to see them -- maybe some or all
of them I have played. Then the discussion can begin in ernest.

Kyle, I have huge respect for Clear Creek -- just a sensationa layout from C&C. The issue is can it compete with the top five I mentioned in CA -- frankly, you have not played all of the top five I mentioned -- and if you see Clear Creek in the same league with Riviera I think that's a stretch on your part. Would Clear Creek make my personal top 100 -- yes. But the top five are all in the top 25 in the USA. Something to ponder.

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle:

Here's what you should do -- it's e-z to cherry-pick off something from someone's list without posting your own.

I'd like to see your list because it then demonstrates what you emphasize for quality designs. You mentioned you have
only play half of my list -- if you have other candidates to mention -- please post them. I'd like to see them -- maybe some or all
of them I have played. Then the discussion can begin in ernest.

Kyle, I have huge respect for Clear Creek -- just a sensationa layout from C&C. The issue is can it compete with the top five I mentioned in CA -- frankly, you have not played all of the top five I mentioned -- and if you see Clear Creek in the same league with Riviera I think that's a stretch on your part. Would Clear Creek make my personal top 100 -- yes. But the top five are all in the top 25 in the USA. Something to ponder.

I'm not trying to cherry pick. There is no anomosity here, compatriot. I am merely expressing my opinion that La Purisima and Winchester would not make my top 25 despite my having played so few of California's top tier tracks.

I'll send you a few other suggestions on the CA top 25 thread for discussion purposes.

Rivera is a great track, but I reckon it is not quite top 25 material nation wide by my taste. I think Clear Creek is most certainly in the top 75 ( I prefer it to Black Mesa, for instance) , which brings it into the conversation. Perhaps when I have played 12K courses, like yourself, I'll be more entitled to dissention.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Forward me your listing so a real dialogue can happen. When people just cherry-pick off a given course or two and readily admit you have not played half the layouts I included then something is amiss.

Kyle, you are entitled to any of your opinions -- whether you played one course or one million. The issue is credibility and field work.

I like Clear Creek plenty but I would not have it beyond Black Mesa. They are both soid layouts in so many ways.

Riviera is a tried and true test of golf -- from the average club member to the world's best. If you see it differently -- so be it -- for you.

[Rick Shefchik]

I feel like Bogie in "Casablanca" -- I thought Nevada was a desert, but with all the Creeks, Lakes and Springs on this list, obviously I was misinformed...

[Matt_Ward]

Rick:

The diversity of courses would amaze many people -- not the same state it was 20 years ago in regards to golf offerings.

[Jim Franklin]

Good list Matt. Boulder Creek was enjoyable to play, but I think South Shore would be top 6 in the state for me. I loved the finishing holes there.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Care to name your top ten -- I do agree about South Shore -- an oversight by me.

Glad to hear you played Boulder Creek and liked it.

Amazes me how good the course is and how close to downtown it is.

[Matt_Ward]

Interesting about the many comments I have received offline endorsing the likes of South Shore -- the Nicklaus layout rarely gets mentioned from other situations on this site.

Be curious to know -- from those like me who have played it -- what they fiound so compelling. I really enjoyed the final sequence of holes as you move up and down through the scenic property site.

[Matt_Ward]

The Reno area has now moved much further ahead with the combination of private and public offerings.

Interestingly, all the fanfare from years ago for that area was for Edgewood Tahoe -- not that layout is more
in the rear view mirror.

[Jud_T]

Matt,

You're on a roll.  How about your Arizona list?

[Matt_Ward]

Charlie:

Wolf Creek is a lightning rod layout -- for those who are classic school types they can't stand Wolf Creek. I don't doubt there are points on their side -- the cart connection can be a bit much in spots -- but given the site there had to be some movement on that front and frankly I don't hold that against the course.

However, for those who are bit more elastic in their acceptance of items -- Wolf Creek is a blast -- sort of like the original Indiana Jones flick. Never a dull moment and plenty of high octane excitement. Wolf Creek is akin to playing golf on a different planet -- some will argue that's a good thing and others may scoff at that and say that's the biggest handicap to the course.

I will say this -- if one plays the appropriate tees it can be quite fun. Play the wrong tees and you get spanked -- HARD. Especially when afternoon winds can whip up. Nothing like playing such holes as #2 (from the tip tee box) -- #6, #7 and #8. The 13th is a fine short par-4 with the 14th being one of the best holes in all of Nevada in my mind. The main weakness -- closing holes on both sides -- especially the 18th take it down a notch. Still, anyone coming to NV and not playing Wolf Creek is akin to never stepping foot inside one of the really outlandish casinos in the state.

Jud:

Curious to know what you want -- a top 25 overall -- or just the public side from AZ ?

[Matt_Ward]

1st Group

Clear Creek (Reno area)
Shadow Creek
Wolf Creek (Mesquite area)

2nd Group

Montreux (Reno area)
PGA GC at Coyote Springs / The Chase
Southern Highlands

3rd Group

Arrowcreek / The Challenge Course (Reno area)
Boulder Creek / Desert Hawk & Coyote Run
South Shore

4th Group

Genoa Lakes / Lakes (Reno area)
Pauite / Wolf
Incline Village (Reno area)

5th Group

Genoa Lakes / Resort (Reno area)
Reflection Bay
Somerset CC


This is the amended listing -- includes South Shore but drops off entirely Las Vegas CC..

[Jud_T]

Top 25 overall would be great...a few honorable mention publix would be interesting as well...

[Tim Book]

Matt,

Your appreciation for Coyote Springs / Chase peeks my interest in checking it out, however it would have to be pretty high on the list of new courses that will not be taken care of.  Especially considering its location and the fact that the development hit the skids.  I wonder what shape it will be in this spring? 

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Good question.

Development is at a standstill but the issue will be how deep are the pockets for the folks at Coyote Springs / Chase. No doubt it's remote but then again we are only talking about 50 miles from The Strip. For many players they may skip the trek because there is no other element of "life" once the sun heads down out there.

[Tim Book]

Matt,

I'm not worried about the nightlife.  That little town 50 miles back toward the CA border will satisfy that. I wonder if its worth skipping another round at Wolf Creek or my initial trek to Sand Hollow to play the Chase?  Previously my thoughts would be to give the Chase a go, but now?

[Matt_Ward]

Charlie:

Good point.

There's little doubt that one can have p[lentry of "kodak" moments when playing Wolf Creek. The utter isolation and the moon-like setting where golf is included is indeed something that makes for a visual tour de force.

Tim:

If you can get another round in at Wolf Creek I'd opt in that direction -- combining mesquite with St. George as you head over to Hurrican to play Sand Hollow is a nice combo. Maybe someone can weigh in with current turf conditions at The Chase -- I played it about 1 1/2 year ago and it was very good. No doubt things can change.

[Matt_Ward]

Just wanted to add a note about South Shore -- Nicklaus gets plenty of hits on GCA -- some quite on target and the others just deep left field crap.

South Shore has about 350 elevation change and the views -- both internal and external - are stunning.

I always have liked the final four holes there. The 15th is one of NV's best holes and it's under 400 yards from the tips.

The par-3 16th is also a scenic dropshot type and the climbing par-4 holes that conclude the round are both well done - especially the 18th. For those who can play it -- well worth the time indeed.

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