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Duncan Betts

Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #250 on: February 16, 2011, 12:12:30 AM »
Duncan,

France seems to have implemented a safe and sound Nuclear Power System quite well.

I don't see why other nations couldn't replicate or improve the model.

they have, it's called nuclear energy.  It upsets a whole other group of people with a different agenda....


What is France doing with their spent nuclear material?

Like I said Pat.....

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #251 on: February 16, 2011, 10:38:00 AM »

In the meantime, as David Elvins and others seem to suggest....  
Please don't paint me as having an agenda here, Lou.  I know very little about the subject and have an open mind.  I am only asking the questions.  

Personally I thought that Tom Birkett's response, whilst interesting, was hysterical.  If you found it well reasoned, then fair enough.  


Jeff Taylor,
Thanks for the info.

David,

Perhaps something is lost in translation and/or style, but your second paragraph doesn't seem to support your first.  Maybe your questions or concepts on money, costs, and wealth are just too abstruse for those of us of simpler understanding.

You write:

"I just find it hard to belive that man is not ingeneous enough to come up with alternative low cost energy.  People like Lou Duran are always talking about encouraging innovation, man's ability to adapt, etc etc, yet here we have so many of the same people crying out that the status quo should be maintained at all costs."

I don't recognize this Duran guy.  Can you point me to where he advocates "that the status quo should be maintained at all costs"?

And why do you suppose that to date man has not been "ingeneous enough to come up with alternative low cost energy"?  In the U.S. alone, "our" Energy Department has spent over $600 Billion since its inception.  Just like they have been keeping fuel-saving carburation devices off the market for decades, might the evil oil companies and the psuedo-scientists, slimy lobbyists, and Republican politicians they employ been involved in a colossal conspiracy to thwart the heroic efforts of our noblest and finest scientific minds?  Or could it be that the gradual, but positive strides in energy productivity has something to do with the laws of thermodynamics?        


  
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 01:15:29 PM by Lou_Duran »

Jeff Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #252 on: February 16, 2011, 02:47:33 PM »
Quote
 Or could it be that the gradual, but positive strides in energy productivity has something to do with the laws of thermodynamics?

This may provide some insight about innovation and renewable energy.

http://spectator.org/archives/2011/02/16/the-california-green-debauch/

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #253 on: February 16, 2011, 03:19:06 PM »

Nice article Jeff.  I am sure it won't be long before someone points out that it is on a conservative website, therefore it must be sponsered by big oil and they won't even bother to read it. ;)

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #254 on: February 16, 2011, 03:54:37 PM »
I have come late to this subject and wonder whether this has been mentioned before, if so, I apologise.


Professor  Ian Plimer, the Australian geologist, whose new book shows that  'anthropogenic global warming' is a dangerous, ruinously expensive  fiction, a 'first-world luxury' with no basis in scientific fact. Could  not have said it better!
 

If  you've read his book, "Heaven and Earth -- Global Warming:  The  Missing Science," (2009) you will agree, this is a good  summary.   

Are you sitting down?   

Okay,  here's the bombshell.  The volcanic eruption in Iceland, since its  first spewing of volcanic ash has, in just FOUR DAYS, NEGATED EVERY  SINGLE EFFORT you have made in the past five years to control CO2  emissions on our planet - all of  you.   

Of  course you know about this evil carbon dioxide that we are trying to  suppress - it's that vital chemical compound that every plant requires  to live and grow and to synthesize into oxygen for us humans and all  animal life.

I  know, it's very disheartening to realize that all of the carbon emission  savings you have accomplished while suffering the inconvenience and  expense of: driving Prius hybrids, buying fabric grocery bags, sitting  up till midnight to finish your kid's "The Green Revolution" science  project, throwing out all of your non-green cleaning supplies, using  only two squares of toilet paper, putting a brick in your toilet tank  reservoir, selling your SUV and speedboat, vacationing at home instead  of abroad, nearly getting hit every day on your bicycle, replacing all  of your 50 cents light bulbs with $10.00 light bulbs ...well, all of  those things you have done have all gone down the tubes in just four  days.   

The  volcanic ash emitted into the Earth's atmosphere in just four days - yes  - FOUR DAYS ONLY by that volcano in Iceland, has totally erased every  single effort you have made to reduce the evil beast, carbon.  And  there are around 200 active volcanoes on the planet spewing out this  crud any one time - EVERY DAY.   

I  don't really want to rain on your parade too much, but I should mention  that when the volcano Mt Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines in 1991, it  spewed out more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than the entire  human race had emitted in its entire YEARS on earth.  Yes folks, Mt  Pinatubo was active for over one year - think about  it.   

Of  course I shouldn't spoil this touchy-feely tree-hugging moment and  mention the effect of solar and cosmic activity and the well-recognized  800-year global heating and cooling cycle, which keep happening, despite  our completely insignificant efforts to affect climate  change.
 

And  I do wish I had a silver lining to this volcanic ash cloud but the fact  of the matter is that the bush fire season across the western USA and  Australia this year alone will negate your efforts to reduce carbon in  our world for the next two to three years.  And it happens every  year. 

Just  remember that your government just tried to impose a whopping carbon tax  on you on the basis of the bogus "human-caused" climate change  scenario.   

Hey,  isn't it interesting how they don't mention "Global Warming" any more,  but just "Climate Change" - you know why?  It's because the planet  has COOLED by 0.7 degrees in the past century and these global warming  bull artists got caught with their pants  down.   

And  just keep in mind that you might yet have an Emissions Trading Scheme -  that whopping new tax - imposed on you, that will achieve absolutely  nothing except make you poorer.  It won't stop any volcanoes from  erupting, that's for sure.   

But  hey, relax, give the world a hug and have a nice  day!
 

PS:  I wonder if Iceland is buying carbon offsets?




Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #255 on: February 16, 2011, 04:40:28 PM »
Opposite point of view on this volcano vs. man thing

http://www.skepticalscience.com/volcanoes-and-global-warming-intermediate.htm
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 04:46:22 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #256 on: February 17, 2011, 01:54:42 AM »
Brush fires have no net impact on CO2, because the brush grows back (and then burns again)  Nor does using wood for fires, or making paper, or whatever, so long as you are using it sustainably - not using any more than what grows back.  What matters as far as net human carbon impact is cutting down or burning forests and replacing them with something that locks up much less carbon, like crops, or digging up carbon locked up in plant material for millions of years in the form of oil and coal.

Whether you think that human carbon impact is huge or a drop in the bucket compared to other sources is another matter.  This battle has little to do with science, and everything to do with politics.  If you doubt that, check polls on how few liberals are global warming "deniers" and how few conservatives believe in it.  Its really kind of sad how most people drink their respective party's kool-aid by the gallon, but of course that isn't just in terms of global warming...
My hovercraft is full of eels.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #257 on: February 17, 2011, 03:07:27 AM »
IProfessor  Ian Plimer, the Australian geologist, whose new book shows that  'anthropogenic global warming' is a dangerous, ruinously expensive  fiction, a 'first-world luxury' with no basis in scientific fact. Could  not have said it better!
  

If  you've read his book, "Heaven and Earth -- Global Warming:  The  Missing Science," (2009) you will agree, this is a good  summary.  

Are you sitting down?  

Okay,  here's the bombshell.  The volcanic eruption in Iceland, since its  first spewing of volcanic ash has, in just FOUR DAYS, NEGATED EVERY  SINGLE EFFORT you have made in the past five years to control CO2  emissions on our planet - all of  you.  

Bob,

I have followed Ian Plimer's career quite closely.  Back in the day when I was studying mining and geology, he was the man when it came to the geology of Broken Hill.  Then he became a bit of a media guy on geology and I enjoyed his book, "A short histoy of planet earth" which was an interesting and thought provoking book.  

I have only read bits of "Heaven and Earth.." but from what I can gather, it is equally interesting and thouht provoking.  It is interesting to note the difference between the reaction to "A short history..." and "Heaven and Earth.."  which has, I believe been treated much more as a scientific production and less of an opinion piece.  the book has several obvious shortcomings, not least his reluctance to come up with any evidence on his 'volcano hypothesis' despite much questioning/ridiculing of the numbers he uses.  The bits you mention about volcanos are at odds with most other research and he looks evasive and decietful when challenged here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7y6xJbcW4A

As Doug says, "This battle has little to do with science, and everything to do with politics.  If you doubt that, check polls on how few liberals are global warming "deniers" and how few conservatives believe in it." and it is a pity that Plimer's point will always be qeustioned as whether it is coming from a scientist (well, mining geologist) or a right wing idealogue.  For those of us that would like to know the truth, without any agenda, it is a most frustrating debate, and one that I have never been able to fully engage wiith.  

I found this article most relevant to the Global Warming Debate
http://www.theage.com.au/world/defector-admits-he-lied-to-help-topple-saddam-20110216-1awjh.html

BTW, if you missed my PM, Bob, Thank you very much for the other book recommendation. Loved it!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 05:55:42 AM by David_Elvins »
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #258 on: February 17, 2011, 04:33:24 PM »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #259 on: February 17, 2011, 05:35:14 PM »
I generally try to avoid contemptuous threads now days, but I feel inclined to toss in my two cents here.

RE: the environment and global warming. 

My position is simple.  Until you know how what you are doing is going to affect your ecosystem, you are playing a game of chance. 

A game of chance is acceptable when playing with house money, or when attempting to reach a par 5 over water in two shots on a Saturday playing a casual round with you kids.

But when it comes to something like the earth, and considering that this earth sustains our form of life, I think playing a game of chance is reckless.

Hence, whenever it is prudent for us to cease playing this game of chance, I think it is a no-brainer that such ought to be the policy enforced.

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #260 on: February 17, 2011, 06:12:09 PM »
Pilmer may be a sexy name of the moment for global warming deniers, but just because he is a geologist does not mean that the facts he is claiming is correct.

According to US Geological Survey, the humans spew 130 times more CO2 than volcanoes. EPA also disagrees with his numbers (The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has stated that Plimer's statement "has no factual basis" since "Volcanoes are only responsible for a couple of hundred megatons per year of CO2 —a couple of orders of magnitude smaller than human emissions— and are balanced by deep ocean burial", and because volcanoes produce 200 million tons of CO2 a year compared with 600 million tons from U.S. passenger cars alone.). That is including underwater volcanoes which Pilmer frequently states that USGS does not include in their survey. Unless Pilmer can factually dispute USGS' and slew of affiliated scientists and researchers' methods and data, he gets  placed in the same special corner with creationists that he vehemently disagrees with.

If Pilmer is correct about his analysis, there would be other geologists who would back him up with independently measured data. No one else has. That is what is great about science, you can state whatever you want, but unless others can reproduce the same data, your statements are not worth anything.

Sorry, Bob...

Tom Birkert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #261 on: February 17, 2011, 06:21:21 PM »

That is what is great about science, you can state whatever you want, but unless others can reproduce the same data, your statements are not worth anything.


Pretty difficult to reproduce some of the data from the UEA as they broke the freedom of information law so as not to disclose it! What sort of scientific method is that?

As Professor Jones stated so eloquently "Why should I give information to you when all you want to do is find something wrong with it?".

I'm not a denier by the way.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #262 on: February 17, 2011, 06:54:59 PM »

Gentlemen

When you arse is proceeding toward your teeth via your internal organs at some unbelievable velocity after the Super Volcanoes go bang, please remember before you are vaporised and add to the detritus that will one year be falling back to Earth adding yet more pollution THAT I TOLD YOU SO.  Oh yes its Yellowstone that they say is due to go first, so we will solve the big problem  with the carts and distance aids with one bang – what that saying ' Every cloud has a silver lining’ and what a big F*@King Cloud.

I think we will have Global warming when that happens, in the mean time I wish you a Goodnight .

Melvyn

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #263 on: February 17, 2011, 10:36:04 PM »

Gentlemen

When you arse is proceeding toward your teeth via your internal organs at some unbelievable velocity after the Super Volcanoes go bang, please remember before you are vaporised and add to the detritus that will one year be falling back to Earth adding yet more pollution THAT I TOLD YOU SO.  Oh yes its Yellowstone that they say is due to go first, so we will solve the big problem  with the carts and distance aids with one bang – what that saying ' Every cloud has a silver lining’ and what a big F*@King Cloud.

I think we will have Global warming when that happens, in the mean time I wish you a Goodnight .

Melvyn

I would be willing to bet we would have global cooling, not global warming, Melvyn.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #264 on: February 20, 2011, 11:25:22 AM »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #265 on: February 20, 2011, 04:01:38 PM »
New scientific studies reported in the New York Times at http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/science/earth/17extreme.html?_r=1&hp. They ran computer theories to explain a 7% increase in extreme  rains (data 1951-1999 in the northern hemisphere) and were unable to replicate the increase until they factored in greenhouse gases. It was noted that the 7% increase was "well outside the boundary of normal variability." The papers are (will be?) published in Nature.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #266 on: February 25, 2011, 02:47:40 PM »

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #267 on: February 25, 2011, 03:15:26 PM »
I'll go for climate change, not global warming...

too cold to start the round in Scottsdale Arizona... current temp : 38F... hig for today 52 F

Standing on the golf course, I go for the world is flat.
:P
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #268 on: February 25, 2011, 06:01:35 PM »

Don’t you just love proof



Melvyn

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #269 on: February 28, 2011, 10:26:19 AM »

Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #270 on: March 02, 2011, 07:59:46 PM »
Science marches on...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/feb/27/can-these-scientists-end-climate-change-war

Muller calls his latest obsession the Berkeley Earth project. The aim is so simple that the complexity and magnitude of the undertaking is easy to miss. Starting from scratch, with new computer tools and more data than has ever been used, they will arrive at an independent assessment of global warming. The team will also make every piece of data it uses – 1.6bn data points – freely available on a website. It will post its workings alongside, including full information on how more than 100 years of data from thousands of instruments around the world are stitched together to give a historic record of the planet's temperature.

Obviously, Prof Muller is dillusional if he believes his (great) work will settle the debate. The deniers willfully ignore any data that does not suit their world view, that isn't going to change just because someone comes up with more accurate data (unless that data agrees with the preconceived view).

But, scientifically speaking, Prof Muller's work will be illuminating.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #271 on: March 02, 2011, 08:14:22 PM »
Richard,
I didn't read the article.
Can you tell me who is funding the research?
Thanks

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #272 on: March 02, 2011, 08:37:34 PM »
Richard,

Does the "100 years of data" mean temperature readings for the lasst 100 years? Or does it mean scientific findings relating to temperature over the last 100 years?

What's smaller...the 100 years divided by the age of the earth? Or the number of people interested in the Merion/NGLA debates divided by the total on the planet?

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #273 on: March 02, 2011, 09:09:32 PM »
Richard,
I didn't read the article.
Can you tell me who is funding the research?
Thanks

Don,
Here is one paragraph about the funding, which ranges from the Koch Brothers to the Gates Foundation
" For the time being, Muller's project is organised under the auspices of Novim, a Santa Barbara-based non-profit organisation that uses science to find answers to the most pressing issues facing society and to publish them "without advocacy or agenda". Funding has come from a variety of places, including the Fund for Innovative Climate and Energy Research (funded by Bill Gates), and the Department of Energy's Lawrence Berkeley Lab. One donor has had some climate bloggers up in arms: the man behind the Charles G Koch Charitable Foundation owns, with his brother David, Koch Industries, a company Greenpeace called a "kingpin of climate science denial". On this point, Muller says the project has taken money from right and left alike."


Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Global warming ????
« Reply #274 on: March 07, 2011, 10:28:58 AM »
What do you think of geoengineering ? Should we try to hack the planet?

http://www.justmeans.com/blogs/What-Are-the-Costs-of-Geoengineering--and-Will-It-Work-/546.html




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