The Best of Canada – All Ian Andrew’s Other Lists

[Matt_Ward]

Ian:

Give me your assessment of Devil's Paintbrush.

Would you have it among your top five for modern designs -- say from 1980 on ?

If not -- then where would you place it ?

thanks ...

[Bob Jenkins]

Ian,

Some of us would love to join you for a few days at Sagebrush so please get in touch and we can arrange something in the spring or summer. I truly would look forward to those days! I guarantee one heck of a lot of fun and lots of firm and fast.

Regarding your lists, not having exposure to the Ontario courses I cannot comment but what I do notice is your preference for the "oldies", ie. the Thompson courses and others designed in the "Golden Age". I can appreciate your preference but are there more modern courses that  could sneak onto your lists? Is so, where would they be?

[Matthew MacKay]

Hard to argue with much on that set of lists, Ian. Glad to see Kawartha mentioned a few times.

Considering the recent work done at Toronto Golf, would you still include it on a second tier of courses to see in Canada?

[Harris Nepon]

Lookout, aside from the view, what do you think is so great?

Also, you seem to have no love for Westmount. Just curious your thoughts on the course.

Harris,

Lookout:  It's a really fun drive because the angle requires you to flirt with all the trouble on the right if you are a long hitter. Because you can see over the trees it compels you to take on a little too much risk when you don't need to. The green is easily approached from the ground but few do and long is death for those who are too aggressive. The subtle "y" shaped swale in the green makes putting very deceiving. Fun hole to play.

Westmount:  I have it in my Personal Top 10 - I like it more than the people that rate for Score
I think 1, 4, 9, 10, 14, 15 and 16 are all exceptional holes.

I would join if I lived 30 minutes closer.

The reason for The List of the Essential 6 is they are one step better than Westmount, Cataraqui, Paintbrush, St. Thomas etc..

Thanks for the insight Ian. Westmount is my favourite course in Ontario. Hard to compare it to Hamilton and the others on your list cause I never have access to those ones. I agree it can't top your top 6, however I would include it in the top greens category.

[Ian Andrew]

Ian:
Give me your assessment of Devil's Paintbrush

Matt,

My Entire Top 10

1. Cape Breton Highlands Links – Stanley Thompson
2. St. George’s Golf & Country Club – Stanley Thompson
3. Hamilton Golf & Country Club – Harry Colt
4. Jasper Park Golf Course – Stanley Thompson
5. Banff Springs Golf Course – Stanley Thompson
6. Capilano Golf & Country Club – Stanley Thompson
7. Devil's Paintbrush
8. The National Golf Club of Canada
9. Toronto Golf Club (before renovation)
10. Westmount Golf & Country Club

Matt,

It's far from perfect, but it is also one of the most enjoyable courses to play.

[Ian Andrew]

Ian,

Some of us would love to join you for a few days at Sagebrush so please get in touch and we can arrange something in the spring or summer. I truly would look forward to those days! I guarantee one heck of a lot of fun and lots of firm and fast.

Regarding your lists, not having exposure to the Ontario courses I cannot comment but what I do notice is your preference for the "oldies", ie. the Thompson courses and others designed in the "Golden Age". I can appreciate your preference but are there more modern courses that  could sneak onto your lists? Is so, where would they be?

Top 10 Modern Courses

Devil's Paintbrush
The National
Blackhawk
Eagle's Nest
Muskoka Bay

Oviinbyrd
Bigwin Island
Osprey Valley - Heathlands
Wolf Creek
Beacon Hall

[Jay Cox]

Ian, I am an enormous fan of the par 5s at Highlands Links, which may be the best set I've ever played.  I'm glad to see that you seem to be too, seeing as two of the four holes at Highlands that made one of your "best of" lists were par 5s.  Could you comment on what you like about 7 and 15, and why you think those are better holes than 6 and 16?

For what it's worth, I think all four are fantastic holes and all four would make a list of my 40 or 50 favorite par 5s.  I go back and forth, but on most days either 15 or 16 is my favorite.

[Robert Thompson]

I'd not Ian hasn't been to Tobiano, Sagebrush or Humber Valley in Nova Scotia, all of which might make my list. Greywolf in BC would also have a shot...

Oh, and since Ian won't do it, here's my "dumb blonde list" of courses in Canada that are pretty, but without substance:

1) Fox Harb'r
2) Nicklaus North
3) Furry Creek
4) Seguin Valley
5) Mystic Golf Club
6) Glen Arbour
7) The Rock
8  Kananaskis (either of them)
9) Bear Mountain (first course)
10) Radium Springs

Ian,

Some of us would love to join you for a few days at Sagebrush so please get in touch and we can arrange something in the spring or summer. I truly would look forward to those days! I guarantee one heck of a lot of fun and lots of firm and fast.

Regarding your lists, not having exposure to the Ontario courses I cannot comment but what I do notice is your preference for the "oldies", ie. the Thompson courses and others designed in the "Golden Age". I can appreciate your preference but are there more modern courses that  could sneak onto your lists? Is so, where would they be?

Top 10 Modern Courses

Devil's Paintbrush
The National
Blackhawk
Eagle's Nest
Muskoka Bay

Oviinbyrd
Bigwin Island
Osprey Valley - Heathlands
Wolf Creek
Beacon Hall

[Will MacEwen]

RT - I tend to think of Big Sky as easier on the eyes than Nicklaus North, but I think it is also a much better course.  Not sure if it meets your eye candy criteria or not.

I've played most of the modern mountain style courses in BC and some in Alberta, and Greywolf has always stood out to me as the best.

Furry Creek really deserves it's own list, although I think the original Rock may have been equally tricked up from what I have heard.

[henrye]

Can't believe your modern list.  Muskoka Bay & Bigwin = eye candy & cartball.  If you really like Carrick's work (of course, I assume you do), why no love for the Osprey courses?!

[Ronald Montesano]

Full Disclosure:  Ian did a phenomenal (with a capital "F") restoration/rennovation of Cherry Hill's bunkers a few years back...He can chime in with any other addition/changes...I believe he moved the back tee on the par three fifth, extended a pond on #15 and added the spectacular back tee on #17.

Ian, did the 11th at Cherry Hill receive any consideration for your par three list, if only for that damned skull green?  The members always claim that Trevino called it one of the toughest he had played...I Billly Casper it and play to the front, taking no worse than 4 and sometimes 3, when I am with the teams up there.

Can you also talk about the greens at Cherry Hill, please?  They have such notoriety, for the influence of grain/slope/whatever it is.  The local insight is, everything runs toward Buffalo, be it uphill, downhill or sidehill.  For you douchebags on the site, you should be lucky enough to run toward Buffalo.

Next, to Lookout Point...did the third (I believe it is), that par five with the sliver of a green, receive any consideration for your par five lists?  How about that 8th hole, the par three up into the neck of that slpe?

Thanks for your responses...still hoping to get out to PC one day!

[Ian Andrew]

Can you also talk about the greens at Cherry Hill, please?

Next, to Lookout Point...did the third (I believe it is), that par five with the sliver of a green, receive any consideration for your par five lists?  How about that 8th hole, the par three up into the neck of that slpe?

Ronald,

What makes the greens really cool at Cherry Hill is all the interior contours. I find it hard to get the ball into the right spot because often flags can be placed in small compartments inside the green. To play well, often you have to accept what you are offered, rather than chase what you can’t have.

I did not consider the 11th, while I think it’s a terrific green, I think there are many better par threes where the combination of land and scenery combines with a great green site to make it even more than the 11th.

The 3rd is a wonderful hole and a really interesting green, but it needs to be properly put back to be considered. There is still much work to do around the green, but that should come this year finally.

I'm not crazy about the 8th.

[Ian Andrew]

Can't believe your modern list.  Muskoka Bay & Bigwin = eye candy & cartball.  If you really like Carrick's work (of course, I assume you do), why no love for the Osprey courses?!

Henry,

I have Opsrey Valley - Heathlands on the list

Tell you what, name Your Top 10 and let’s compare notes.

[Ian Andrew]

Ian, I am an enormous fan of the par 5s at Highlands Links, which may be the best set I've ever played.  I'm glad to see that you seem to be too, seeing as two of the four holes at Highlands that made one of your "best of" lists were par 5s.  Could you comment on what you like about 7 and 15, and why you think those are better holes than 6 and 16?

I think it’s without a doubt the best set of fives in Canada. I personally choose to ignore the 11th that masquerades as a par five on the score card since that was not Stanley’s intent.

I think the land is far more interesting on the 7th and 15th and I’ve always been a huge fan of serpentine holes. It’s not that I think any less of the 6th or 16th, but I feel the 15th and 7th are decidedly more interesting to me.

I still think the four par fives are the best collection of fives on one course in the World. I have yet to find three or four that are a better.

[henrye]

Can't believe your modern list.  Muskoka Bay & Bigwin = eye candy & cartball.  If you really like Carrick's work (of course, I assume you do), why no love for the Osprey courses?!

Henry,

I have Opsrey Valley - Heathlands on the list

Tell you what, name Your Top 10 and let’s compare notes.

I'm no good at those top 10 lists, because when I get down to #'s 9 & 10, I find 5 more that I like just as much.  Looking at your modern list, however, I'd toss out Muskoka Bay, Bigwin & Eagle's Nest.  Prefer both the other Osprey courses, Red Tail, Mad River, Lake Joe, Rocky Crest & Manitou.  The Paintbrush has always been a funny one to me.  It's so over the top as a faux links with some absurd cavernous bunkers, but it's fun and hard to argue against.  It's a silly course that's a joy to return to, time and again.  Jury is still out on Oviinbyrd for me, as I've only played it a few times.

[Gary Slatter]

Can you share a little more about Markham Green? Why did they lose 9 holes? When did it happen? Would it be possible to restore them?

The course was a full eighteen hole course built for a single owner  in the early 1960’s. Gary Slatter would know the details even better than I do. The course was designed by a local professional named Jimmy Johnston who did a pretty good job.

I was lucky enough to play there quite a bit as a teenager and remember the course in detail. Interestingly it opened and closed on two par fives. The 3rd and 16th were both threes as well. The course opened above the valley and through a series of holes set in wonderful trees worked it’s way down to the Rouge River (a major river in Toronto) The highlights included the long par three third played beside an 80 foot bluff down the right side all the way to the green and the extremely interesting short par four 4th.

The 6th was the start of the famous run along the river that finished at the 13th. The 6th itself was an outstanding three across the river to a super cool green surrounded by bunkers. The 7th played diagonally over the river and then played up the side all the way to a massive green 460 yards away from the tee (always was a par 4). The 8th was a pitch par three back across the river with the Green hanging on the bank. Then there was a long walk to the short and wild 9th that doglegged hard to the left to a really interesting elevated green.

The back nine begins at the top of the valley and plays down into the valley before finishing at a green set on the other side. The 11th crosses the river, plays along side and ten crosses back over to the green on the other side. The 12th was a long four where the river came into play up the left and crossed well short of the green.

The original 13th involved a walk to a tee on the land above the valley. The player tried to decide whether to take on the elbow created by the River’s bend and the massive landmark Willow at the corner. You had to decide whether to play long and right or short and left which meant a 150 yard carry into a green set hard against the River. This was an exceptional hole, but is now played as a three down below. That happened while I was still a teenager.

The 14th plays back up the valley with no river in play and is a terrific long four. My favourite was the 15th a short drivable four, now gone, where the valley was in play for the entire length of the hole along the right. The 16th was a long three over a large deep pond and was where I used to swim for balls. The 17th was 625 yards right from the outset. The 18th was a fine finishing five with wonderful bunkering at the corner of the dogleg. It was a great course.

The course was sold to IBM (I’m guessing in the 1970’s) who operated it for quite a long time. It also had a 9 hole short course (nothing special) and playing fields till the 1980’s when it was sold for development. I think the valley lands are leased and it’s currently operated as a nine holes where you drive out and play back in. The current course has a new opener, then borrows 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, the reised13th and the14th. This is the bulk of what made it famous in its day. The remainder is all under housing with the exception of the 6th which is fallow.

Ian et al, Markham Green was originally BOX GROVE designed by Jimmy Johnstone for Rosedale member Nelson Davis.  Jimmy was the pro at ROSEDALE and Nelson thought the course was too busy and so he built his own course.  I got to play it maybe 10 times in the early 1970s, usually with Moe Norman.  IBM bought the property and operated it as IBM COUNTRY CLUB for a dozen years or so.  They made it shorter and a bit easier, I did some work for the IBM Club, nothing to do with the course though.   Then IBM sold it and houses were built.  I think the valley holes, on the Rouge River, are part of the Conservation Kingdom.  Until the National opened I thought Box Grove was the toughest course in Ontario.

JimmyJohnstone was a great pro, I think he also designed Donalda Club in 1956.

I love your top 10 list, 100%.  I love Banff but would have to say they have unplayable bunkers.  great designs, too much sand.

thanks for your lists!!

[Ian Andrew]

Prefer both the other Osprey courses, Red Tail, Mad River, Lake Joe, Rocky Crest & Manitou.

We obviously see things differently - nothing wrong with that.
I have no issues with any of your selections and can see the merits of each.

There are parts of Lake Joseph which I particularly enjoyed and would be my favourite of your selections.

[henrye]

Prefer both the other Osprey courses, Red Tail, Mad River, Lake Joe, Rocky Crest & Manitou.

We obviously see things differently - nothing wrong with that.
I have no issues with any of your selections and can see the merits of each.

There are parts of Lake Joseph which I particularly enjoyed and would be my favourite of your selections.

Agree that we see thing differently and also agree that there's nothing wrong with it.  I know you have little love for RedTail, so without putting words in your mouth, I'd be curious as to why you feel it's not top 10 modern.  If the issue is its narrowness, then that is a big area in which we differ.  RedTail is designed as a tightish course, and I think it works brilliantly due to its lack of bunkering.  Pretty tough to find a strong modern course with minimal bunkering and wide fairways.  If there's one complaint I have about modern golf, it's the overuse of bunkers.  It's so refreshing to see a course that doesn't rely on them to create strategic golf.  I think if one were a young, up and coming archie, RedTail would be a great course to learn from.  Minimal bunkers and narrower, but ample fairways = much easier maintenance.  Looking at a course like the Paintbrush, one gets a sense of minimalism & manageable maintenance, but those bunkers have got to be a pain in the butt to take care of.

[Andrew Cunningham]

Ian,

In all honesty, do you think your lists are heavily weighted to courses where you have had a hand in their renovation/restoration/construction?  Obviously working/constructing a course allows for a level of understanding far beyond those who play a course just once.  And while I agree with most of your comments - and think your vast course knowledge gives much credibility to those lists - would full disclose lead one to question the validity of your "rankings" or perhaps simply reflect the fact that you've had a hand in many of Canada's greatest golf courses?  Curious for your thoughts...

Thanks,



Andrew

[Ian Andrew]

Henry,

Just curious....

Does your opinion of Muskoka Bay change if I told you are less bunkers than at Red Tail?


...the quick answer on Red Tail

1. forced carries
2. way too narrow
3. too much contour on tiny greens

[Ian Andrew]

In all honesty, do you think your lists are heavily weighted to courses where you have had a hand in their renovation/restoration/construction - would full disclose lead one to question the validity of your "rankings" or perhaps simply reflect the fact that you've had a hand in many of Canada's greatest golf courses.

Andrew,

Since I feel you kind of called me out on this one here’s my full disclosure for you and all others see. I currently work with 11 clubs listed. I have worked with another 6 when I worked for Carrick. I had a role building 3 of the courses on my list although one is only mentioned because of a single hole. This totals 20 courses. There are 54 courses listed in total.

As Bob pointed out correctly, my clear bias is actually to older courses. If I did not add the 10 Best New Courses at his request it would remove two courses of the three courses that I worked on.

Here are all the courses that I reference:

Highlands Links - client
St. George’s Golf & Country Club – past client w/Carrick
Hamilton Golf & Country Club
Jasper Park Golf Course
Banff Springs Golf Course
Capilano Golf & Country Club
Toronto Golf Club – past client w/Carrick
Mount Bruno Golf Club
Devil’s Paintrush Golf Club
Domaine La Forest
Memphremagog Golf Club
Red Tail Golf Club
Oviinbyrd Golf Club
Summit Golf & Country Club
St. Thomas Golf & Country Club - client
Victoria Golf Club
Kawartha Golf & Country Club - client
Cherry Hill Club - client
Rosedale Golf Club
Beaconsfield Golf & Country Club
Lookout Point Golf & Country Club - client
Pine Ridge Golf Club
Cataraqui Golf & Country Club – past client w/Carrick
Weston Golf & Country Club – past client w/Carrick
Essex Golf & Country Club
Uplands Golf Cpourse
Oakdale Golf & Country Club - client
Islington Golf & Country Club - client
Maple Downs Golf Club - client
Burlington Golf & Country Club
Osprey Valley Golf Club (Hoot) - worked on construction of course
Westmount Golf & Country Club – past client w/Carrick
Black Hawk Golf Club
Galt Country Club - client
Scarboro Golf & Country Club - client
Muskoka Lakes Golf & Country Club
Oshawa Golf & Country Club – past client w/Carrick
Owen Sound Golf & Country Club
Thornhill Golf & Country Club
Waskesiu Golf Course
Club de Golf Laval-sur-le-lac - client
Bigwin Island Golf Club
Devil’s Paintrush
Twin Rivers Golf Club
Braeside Golf Club,
Markham Green
Allandale Golf
The National
Eagle's Nest
Muskoka Bay – worked on course construction
Oviinbyrd
Osprey Valley – Heathlands – worked on course construction
Wolf Creek
Beacon Hall

[henrye]

Henry,

Just curious....

Does your opinion of Muskoka Bay change if I told you are less bunkers than at Red Tail?


...the quick answer on Red Tail

1. forced carries
2. way too narrow
3. too much contour on tiny greens

No, my opinion of Muskoka Bay wouldn't change if you told me it has less bunkers than RedTail, but I'd be very surprised.

Interesting about the forced carries.  Didn't even cross my mind as I can't think of that many.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Henry,

I'm presuming that Ian's not necessarily citing the number of forced carries at Redtail, but those awkward forced carries at #3, #5 and #8, which immediately popped into my head; maybe even the carry to #2 green, too?

I love the place. What Mr. Goodwin and Mr. Drake created at Redtail is remarkable. But, if we're strictly talking golf course architecture, I agree that the course isn't in the upper echelon of Canadian courses.

[Ian Andrew]

Jeff,

You made that clearer than I did - thanks - you were dead on.


Henry,

I originally did not include a modern list and wish I didn’t in hindsight.

Here is Robert Thompson’s blog on the subject: http://canadiangolfer.com/g4g/2011/02/07/ten-best-courses-since-2000/

I post his list because he has seen just about everything. I have not.

The list is here:

Humber Valley
Oviinbyrd
Blackhawk
Tarandowah
Stewart Creek

Tobiano
Sagebrush
Osprey Valley Hoot
Goodwood
Eagles Nest

And an 11th for good measure

Coppinwood


I bring it up since I have not seen 1, 4, all of 5 (liked what I saw), 6, 7, 9 and 11

[Bryan Izatt]

Ian,

Two questions.  One of your best long par 4's is the second at Osprey Valley Hoot.  But, it's under 400 yards; albeit a fine hole, it's not long.  Did you mean the second on the Toot?  It is 480 yards and more like a long par 4.  It's easy to mix up those Hoots and Toots. 

Secondly, you have OV Heathlands on your modern list.  Certainly one of my favourite courses.  I'm wondering how having it on your list reconciles with your other list of ten things you dislike in golf course architecture.  Heathlands starts with a par 5, has at least one artificial pond, uses containment mounding, and has drains in many of the green-side swales.  None of these are deal breakers for me.  I guess the other merits of the course outweigh your dislikes.