[Jim_Coleman]

     Is there a dumber rule in golf than having to utter the word "provisional" before playing a second ball.  I defy anyone to hypothesize a situation when a second ball would not be a provisional.  And, if you're smart enough to come up with one, then why not require the player to say "no provisional" for the one in a million situation.  Should a player be penalized for forgetting to utter a word, or for being so pissed off that he loses his mind?  I think not.

[Kyle Harris]

Jim:

I have trouble with arguments about what a player does in regard to managing emotions. Should a player in another sport, in a fit of competitive anger, not be penalized for assaulting another player?

The rule is in place to protect the player. By declaring a ball a provisional, he is declaring that he will search for the first ball.

[Padraig Dooley]

Jim

There are situations where a golfer might not want to find the ball and is better off putting another ball into play.

Although I believe the R&A are looking at modifying the rule (potentially to come into effect in 2012) where the second ball is assumed to be a provisional, i.e. no need to say provisional and if you just want to put another ball into play, it will be required to say it's not a provisional.

[Jim_Coleman]

    When would he not search for the ball?  

[Kyle Harris]

   When would he not search for the ball?  

Phil Mickelson was in one of these situations a few years back at Torrey. He specifically asked that the ball not be located. The ball was located by a patron, however.

[Dean Stokes]

Jim, you cannot have two balls in play at once. If you DON'T state that your 2nd tee ball is provisionally being hit because you think the 1st one is lost or OB, you have now hit three off the tee........have I missed something?

[Jim_Coleman]

    That was AFTER he hit his provisional (which he did declare), not before.  There would have been no reason for him not to declare a "provisional" before he hit.

[Jim_Coleman]

Yes, Dean, you've missed something.  All I'm saying is that the second ball should be presumed to be a provisional.  After all, it ALWAYS is.

[Kyle Harris]

Jim:

There are also situations where a ball could be lost outside of a hazard or OB, but then is located within the hazard. By declaring the ball provisional, the player is stating that the ball is being played for that specific situation. If the ball is subsequently located in the hazard, that ball is no longer provisional nor eligible to be put in play.

Let's take your example:

Assuming the opposite situation, where the player hits a ball toward a hazard and plays a second that is assumed to be provisional because the player is assuming the ball could be lost outside of the hazard, but then the ball is located within the hazard. The lack of an announcement by the player over the intent of the second ball really confuses this situation. The player could "game" the system by never bothering to look inside the hazard for the ball and therefore assuming it to be lost outside.

[Padraig Dooley]

   When would he not search for the ball?  

Jim

Can you not imagine a situation where a ball has been hit to a position that it could be found, and is potentially unplayable and that the only drop option is back on the tee?

[Dean Stokes]

Yes, Dean, you've missed something.  All I'm saying is that the second ball should be presumed to be a provisional.  After all, it ALWAYS is.

Incorrect. If you do not state that your 2nd ball is a provisional you are thereby declaring that your first is out of play and you are hitting three off the tee.

[Jerry Kluger]

I think the Phil situation at Torrey played out as follows:  During the playoff Phil hit a ball way left into the junk on the 18th and announced that he was playing a provisional which he hit straight down the middle.  He asked the marshals and spectators not to look for the ball but they found it anyway so the provisional was no longer available to him.  He had an unplayable lie and his only option was to go back to the tee and hit another ball.  If the original ball had not been found before he had hit his next shot with the provisional then he would not have had to go back to the tee.  

[Jim_Coleman]

   Dean:  Take a moment, please.  Under the rule as it is now, you are correct.  I am proposing a change, so that the rule presumes the reality, not the opposite.  Again, I challenge anyone to hypothesize a situation when a second shot is not a provisional.
   Padraig:  I can fathom a situation where a found ball is unplayable and re-teeing is the best option.  But you don't know it's unplayable until you get there.  There may be a miracle where, lo and behold, there's a clear shot back to the fairway. That's why one ALWAYS declares a provisional, in case the ball is found.  Saves time having to walk back.
    Jerry:  You have the Phil situation correct.  There is no way he would have hit a second without declaring a provisional - and he didn't.  By the way, if a fan, or an opponent, found his first, I believe his provisional would not have been in play.  Had it been unplayable, he'd have had have to re-teed.

[Tim Bert]

Serious rules enthusiasts want to know... How will your proposed rule change impact the provisional mulligan?!?

[Jim_Coleman]

Tim:  Finally a good point!  I actually have a rule for that too.  You can tie the hole with a mulligan; you can't win the hole.  Whaddya think?

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I believe the Phil situation occured on the dogleg left par 4 17th, not the par 5 18th.

[Scott Stearns]

Phil's sitch was the perfect place to say -"no provisional"  he would have been better off in all cases to do so.  Happened in a Walker Cup at Ocean Forest too, if i remember correctly.

Any time you have hit the ball into really bad country and there are marshals, gallery, etc. around, you should really think abt this.

Unlike Tennis, here are no mulligans in golf.  is it asking too much for a player to declare his intentions before he hits another ball?

[Patrick_Mucci]

     Is there a dumber rule in golf than having to utter the word "provisional" before playing a second ball.  I defy anyone to hypothesize a situation when a second ball would not be a provisional.  And, if you're smart enough to come up with one, then why not require the player to say "no provisional" for the one in a million situation.  Should a player be penalized for forgetting to utter a word, or for being so pissed off that he loses his mind?  I think not.

Jim,

If you don't declare the ball as a provisional, it AUTOMATICALLY BECOMES THE BALL IN PLAY.

You HAVE to declare your intent.

Sometimes, golfers do NOT want to find a ball and will not spend time looking for it.
Instead, they play another ball as their ball in play.

Announcing a "provisional" speeds up play and offers the golfer more options in terms of finding the first ball.

How many times has the first ball been found, and a golfer tries to play the "provisional" as his "unplayable" option ?

The rules have evolved over centuries and seem to be pretty sound, including the "provisional" ball rule.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jim,

by declaring the ball as a provisional you are making the situation clear. By your assuming the ball is a provisional it is just that an assumption and therefore not clear. The rule works just fine and has for many years. If it ain't broken....

Jon

[Jim_Coleman]

Pat:  One can't know he doesn't want to find it until he finds it, as it may turn out to be a lucky result.  That's why we have the provisional rule - so you don't have to walk back.  Your second response is the best, or at least the most honest, response yet.  Keep it because it's always been so  And while we're at it, bring back the stymie.

[Jim_Coleman]

Jon:  The rule can be equally clear (and fairer) by presuming the inevitable.  I say the rule is broken - you're penalizing either stupidity or forgetfulness, with no reason for doing so.  I must not be totally insane, as Padraig reports that my suggestion is under consideration by the R & A.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim,
The scenario you talk about happens when there is tall grass in play at a course, and it happens with some regularity at one course where I play.

There are a couple of places on the course where the grass is long, rather thick, and matted down in many places. The areas aren't marked as OOB or 'sensitive', but players familiar with the course know that it is almost always impossible to play from these places as the trajectory of the tee shot will tend to make the ball burrow itself into the rat's nest of grass. It isn't likely that the ball will be found, but it's also unlikely that it can be extricated with one stroke if it is.

They abandon their first and put a second ball into play from the tee as that's more than likely to be a 'wash'. It also saves them from walking back to the tee if some kind hearted soul finds it.

[Travis Dewire]

   Dean:  Take a moment, please.  Under the rule as it is now, you are correct.  I am proposing a change, so that the rule presumes the reality, not the opposite.  Again, I challenge anyone to hypothesize a situation when a second shot is not a provisional.
   Padraig:  I can fathom a situation where a found ball is unplayable and re-teeing is the best option.  But you don't know it's unplayable until you get there.  There may be a miracle where, lo and behold, there's a clear shot back to the fairway. That's why one ALWAYS declares a provisional, in case the ball is found.  Saves time having to walk back.
    Jerry:  You have the Phil situation correct.  There is no way he would have hit a second without declaring a provisional - and he didn't.  By the way, if a fan, or an opponent, found his first, I believe his provisional would not have been in play.  Had it been unplayable, he'd have had have to re-teed.

Easy,

Lets say you hit it deep into some gnarly looking woods, and you think it will be so bad, that it would be worse to find the play and play from in the woods, then to test your luck and tee off again and play the hole that way. You now declare your first ball to be out of play, and you will tee 3.

That would be a situation in which your 2nd ball is not provisional. You have declared your first ball lost, and now are putting a new ball into play. If you got up and whacked another ball, which is in play? Both? One? Neither AHHHHH

[Bill_McBride]

I think the Phil situation at Torrey played out as follows:  During the playoff Phil hit a ball way left into the junk on the 18th and announced that he was playing a provisional which he hit straight down the middle.  He asked the marshals and spectators not to look for the ball but they found it anyway so the provisional was no longer available to him.  He had an unplayable lie and his only option was to go back to the tee and hit another ball.  If the original ball had not been found before he had hit his next shot with the provisional then he would not have had to go back to the tee.  

I think the best rule change would be the multi-purpose provisional.  You hit your tee ball toward tiger territory near a boundary.  You say, "Ah shit" followed by, "I'm hitting a provisional."   When you reach your original ball, if it is OOB or in an unplayable lie, or you can't find it, you play your fourth shot with the provisional - unless there are other options available for the unplayable.

Imagine how much time this could save in several situations.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:  One can't know he doesn't want to find it until he finds it,

That's not true.
I've seen balls hit in terrible spots where you don't want to find it because the options available are horrendous and you're better off reteeing rather than getting carried away and trying to play it.

It's a great time saver as well[/b]

as it may turn out to be a lucky result.  

That's why we have the provisional rule - so you don't have to walk back.  Your second response is the best, or at least the most honest, response yet.  Keep it because it's always been so  And while we're at it, bring back the stymie.

I know that idiot-savant, TEPaul will disagree with me, but, I think the Stymie brings "defense" back into the game.
It adds an element of skill, long ago lost, back to the game.

Like short siding an approach, with the Stymie returned, you would do the same with putts, missing them if you must, on the proper side.

While the return of the Stymie might take its toll on putting surfaces it might enhance the match play experience for some.

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