Exotic game sightings in the Sand Hills region

[Tim Bert]

If that's not what was implied then perhaps the comments should be edited so that the paragraph from which I quoted  doesn't start with "Unlike some of our neighbors."

I think it is what he wrote even if it isn't what he meant. And I'm not trying to trash him or his facilities just as I hope he isn't trying to do the surrounding facilities. Just how it read to someone with no stake in the Sand Hills region golf politics.  I don't think my interpretation is an unreasonable one based on the written words.

[JC Jones]

My original response, Tim, had the suggestion that he should have included a paragraph break.  I think it is wise to give people the benefit of the doubt.

[Eric Smith]

It's a two pronged marketing pitch and it doesn't transition as well as it probably should. I agree with you Tim, your assumption is not unreasonable. It would be harsh if both are to be applied to the neighboring clubs, but I believe he doesn't mean to imply that.

[Scott Szabo]

After going back and re-reading it I can certainly see how it can be construed that way.  I have no stake in the matter as I have no involvement with any of the courses in mention.  I just don't think he was implying a different kind of membership than that of BN or SH.  I find the members at those clubs to be just like those that DR is trying to attract.  I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

[Jim Colton]

If that's not what was implied then perhaps the comments should be edited so that the paragraph from which I quoted  doesn't start with "Unlike some of our neighbors."

I think it is what he wrote even if it isn't what he meant. And I'm not trying to trash him or his facilities just as I hope he isn't trying to do the surrounding facilities. Just how it read to someone with no stake in the Sand Hills region golf politics.  I don't think my interpretation is an unreasonable one based on the written words.

"Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal.  In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game.  We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet.   We are about friends and family coming together."

Either he is saying:

a) other 'neighbor' clubs don't like the kind of people who become part of Dismal (real, unpretentious, respect the game, etc.)

or

b) other 'neighbor' clubs pale in comparison to DR with respect to pretentiousness, respecting the game, judging by passion over wallet size and friend/family camaraderie.

I haven't been to Dismal but based on my experience at other places I'd be shocked if either of those were true.

[JC Jones]

The problem with that interpretation is that he didn't start the sentence with 'neighbor.'  The preceding sentence had the word 'neighbor' but he didn't use that word in the second one.

To me, it is clear that he wouldn't be describing Holyoke or Valentine as "more romantic" than Dismal because they are similar environments.  That is why I read it as talking about somewhere other than the neighbor clubs.

[Carl Nichols]

Serious question for Chris or others.  Assuming that he was only referring to DR's neighbors in the first sentence (copied below), which of those neighbors have lots of debt and don't have infrastructure in place? 

"Unlike some of our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt, our infrastructure is in place, and is the best around."

[Eric Smith]

"I got it! Paw!!

When he says romantic places, he means Valentine! Get it, Valentine, Nebraska is where The Prairie Club is!

Sheesh Paw, this figurin' people out is easy!"

[Ben Sims]

Reading the 57 responses to this thread leaves me only with two thoughts.

1)  The only subject on GCA.com more caustic than Merion's lineage is any thread involving comparison, juxtaposition, or implied superiority between any of the collection of sand hills courses in Nebraska and northeastern Colorado.  

2) I was shocked that Mac would--as a guest--invite clients to accompany him to Sand Hills GC.

[JC Jones]

Ben,

ME TOO!!!!!!!

In all seriousness, though, if Mr. Youngscap invites Mac to come out and bring 3 people along with him (without any qualifier), why would it shock you that he invited clients?  Many people in the business world, have great relationships with and are friends with their clients. 

[Ben Sims]

JC,

It's just one man's opinion.  Be it semantics, or some of the prudence taught me over the course of my life.  I would have used the word "friends" if they indeed were.  I would also expect a man as involved in the love of golf courses as Mac to "pay it forward" to those close to him in that endeavor.  Which he ended up doing.  But that would have been my first thought, not a backup plan after business acquaintances.   

[Tony Weiler]

For Dismal to add another course, would it be prudent to widen the 17 mile road?  Is that even possible? 

Having driven through the area twice last year, there are lots of places for great golf courses just screaming to be "discovered."  Of course, that is not a secret, I suppose, around here. 

[Tony Weiler]

I guess this article answers my questions on the PC's struggles (and then it picking up) and the plan for the third course. 

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Default.aspx

[JC Jones]

JC,

It's just one man's opinion.  Be it semantics, or some of the prudence taught me over the course of my life.  I would have used the word "friends" if they indeed were.  I would also expect a man as involved in the love of golf courses as Mac to "pay it forward" to those close to him in that endeavor.  Which he ended up doing.  But that would have been my first thought, not a backup plan after business acquaintances.   

Have you ever met Mac?

[Ben Sims]

JC,

It's just one man's opinion.  Be it semantics, or some of the prudence taught me over the course of my life.  I would have used the word "friends" if they indeed were.  I would also expect a man as involved in the love of golf courses as Mac to "pay it forward" to those close to him in that endeavor.  Which he ended up doing.  But that would have been my first thought, not a backup plan after business acquaintances.   

Have you ever met Mac?

JC,

No, I have not.  But I don't think that fact bears any weight.  I simply commented on what I read as a fairly odd statement.  Especially coming from a guy as blatantly enthusiastic as Mac about all things golf.   Air Force colleagues would be the last folks I'd invite to Sand Hills.  My closest friends from the golf world?  You betcha. 

If you're going to give me some bromance story about how Mac is a friend to all, spare me.  I get it.  Mac is friendly, infectious, like a Labrador taking amphetamines.  This is not a revelation.     

I would say that it is quite knightly of you to ride to his defense, even though no sword was drawn from my scabbard.

[Chris Johnston]

Unlike some of our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt, our infrastructure is in place, and is the best around.  Why build a second course?.. because the site is that good and the cost is reasonable.  Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal.  In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game.  We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet.   We are about friends and family coming together.

George - the beauty of our model is you don't have to donate a nut to be come a member.  It's affordable and cool, simple and kind,  truly one of the best experiences out there.  That was the original goal of our neighbor of which I am most grateful to have become a member there early on before it received its well earned acclaim.

Chris,

 The second course is a great idea! The more golf courses in the region, the better from my perspective. And I agree with Adam, there is a compelling story combining Tiger/Jack together and having Tiger's first actual design (if you don't count his backyard practice area). Looking at the aerial, it just screams great golf.

 How much land to you own out there? Where would the proposed 2nd course be in relation to the first?

 I'm not sure I follow your previous comments about your neighbors/competitors. Are you saying they are pretentious, fake and don't respect the game and not about friends and family coming together (aren't they all trying to sell the chance to unplug and unwind with your buddies?) I've been to most of these remote clubs and have found a friendly, down-to-earth vibe that is consistent with the culture of that region. PC was the only place where I felt more like a hotel guest or resort guest as opposed to a friend of the family.

Jim  We have 3,000 acres and two miles of the Dismal.  I was making no comment about members of any other clubs, I was merely making the observation that the members of Dismal are real, not pretentious, and respect the game.  I would imagine that all clubs out here attract the same purist golfer but I don't have any firsthand knowledge.

[Chris Johnston]

Chris, thanks for participating in this. One aspect I think relevant is the bad vibe that many received when the original course opened. That hill needs to be overcome and I think you and your group have gone a long way in correcting that.
My hope is that whoever is chosen to build it, people will give DR a second chance to experience the feelings you've outlined above.

Adam - I agree with you.  There is also a challenge being in a great neighborhood.  Dismal a great place that gets treated rather harshly when compared to the other great area courses.  The point here is most courses would fall short with the great tracks out here.  That doesn't make Dismal bad, it supports the point the neighborhood is that good.

[Chris Johnston]

Wow - First off, I dont think it is cool for people to come on and attack Dismal if they haven't seen it in person or played it. At the same time, I think it is super uncool for someone involved to imply things like this about other clubs in the area. 

"Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal.  In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game.  We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet.   We are about friends and family coming together."

Why not sell the course on its own merits as opposed to implying that there's something not to like about the type of people that have joined other courses in the area. I'm shocked that the number of people lining up to defend Dismal against the Doak and C&C crowd on this thread don't see an equal issue here.

Tim - Maybe I could have typed better yesterday if you though I was critical of the membership of our area clubs.  I would never say anything bad about our neighbors - they are some of the best clubs on the planet.  I was merely describing the kind of people who comprise our own membership.  I certainly made no implication that members of the other clubs were bad - how would I know this?

Those who compliment the people in the area are right on.  Great people. hard working, generous and kind.  They make the visit all the more special.

[Chris Johnston]

Tim, maybe I need to go back and re-read Chris' reply a little closer, but I didn't come away with the impression he was referring to courses in the area such as SH, BN and PC.  I thought it was a more general comment regarding some of the more "elite" clubs.  If I am wrong, then shame on him.

Scott - you are correct - I wasn't banging on out neighbors.  I was describing our the kind of people who are members at Dismal.  I wasn't intended to say describe members of other clubs for I don't know them - those that know me know it isn't my style.

[JC Jones]

JC,

No, I have not.  But I don't think that fact bears any weight.  I simply commented on what I read as a fairly odd statement.  Especially coming from a guy as blatantly enthusiastic as Mac about all things golf.   Air Force colleagues would be the last folks I'd invite to Sand Hills.  My closest friends from the golf world?  You betcha. 

If you're going to give me some bromance story about how Mac is a friend to all, spare me.  I get it.  Mac is friendly, infectious, like a Labrador taking amphetamines.  This is not a revelation.     

I would say that it is quite knightly of you to ride to his defense, even though no sword was drawn from my scabbard.

Please spare me the "take a shot-parse words-pretend like no harm was meant" formula that has been used on here long before you adopted it.  It is a tired one and extremely transparent. 

Your not knowing him absolutely bears weight as you are not making simple comments.  You are making a thinly veiled attack on his character.  What I find interesting is that Mac is often the recipient of shots from you and many of the Max's Lounge crowd yet to my knowledge, only Mayhugh has met him.  Furthermore, your condescending, Papazian-wannabe remarks about him being a labrador on amphetamines are obvious in their intentions are not undone by your sword metaphor.

You may not invite your air force colleagues to play golf with you but perhaps they aren't your golf buddies.  You not knowing Mac nor his relationship with his clients means that your projection of what you would do with all of your prudence has no relevance.  You are right, I probably should just sit tight and not say anything when shots are taken at people whom I've met and think highly of, the problem is, Mac has the class to not reciprocate what is thrown at him and well, I guess I have Sims-like prudence.

[Chris Johnston]

Unlike some of our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt, our infrastructure is in place, and is the best around.  Why build a second course?.. because the site is that good and the cost is reasonable.  Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal.  In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game.  We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet.   We are about friends and family coming together.

Really?

You can see how someone might conclude that the neighbors in question have crushing debt loads and are less down to earth.  Hey, I'm down to earth.  Butler, get me my oatmeal!

John  Forgive me but I'm afraid you missed my point, or I made the point poorly.  The point being made was in regard to "why add a second course".  If you read the comment in that context, it makes sense to me.  We don't have a crushing debt load and fully have our infrastructure in place for a second course - it simply makes the consideration a bit easier, thats all.  I certainly didn't mean to bang our neighbors in the least.

[Chris Johnston]

Serious question for Chris or others.  Assuming that he was only referring to DR's neighbors in the first sentence (copied below), which of those neighbors have lots of debt and don't have infrastructure in place? 

"Unlike some of our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt, our infrastructure is in place, and is the best around."

Hi Carl - Many of you guys are reading way too much into what could have been better written by me.  I wasn't making a comment about others, I was merely trying to point out why we are considering a second course.  We don't have a crushing debt load and our infrastructure is in place - our facilities were built to accommodate more golf and we don't need to expand them. 

[Chris Johnston]

For Dismal to add another course, would it be prudent to widen the 17 mile road?  Is that even possible? 

Having driven through the area twice last year, there are lots of places for great golf courses just screaming to be "discovered."  Of course, that is not a secret, I suppose, around here. 

Tony - widening the road would make the project uneconomical for the road would cost more than the second course.

[Tim Bert]

Chris - Thanks for taking the time to respond to each of us.  Some others pointed out that maybe we should give you the benefit of the doubt on your comments.  I'm more inclined to ask you to clarify because as you know you are posting on a message board that is viewed by a much larger audience than the number of people that post here.  I think the way you wrote your comments begged for some clarification, and I think that clarification that you've taken the time to post will serve you better in the long run than us simply giving you the benefit of the doubt.

[Eric Smith]

Ben:
This issue with Mac and who you think should be in his foursome is odd. You know he put up a wish list thread on GCA and rounded out his invite from Mr. Youngscap by inviting along a total stranger who had a wish to see the SHGC. Of course those of us who made the trip are glad he did that as we made a new friend in Tony. What is the real issue here, please tell us? That was a whole lot of answer for JC's question, no?