Exotic game sightings in the Sand Hills region

[Adam Clayman]

A friend's father was flying his ultra-lite aircraft the other day, and, spotted two Mountain Lions near the South Platte River. But the rarer occurrence was just under a month ago when a Tiger was reported to be surveying ground 4.2 miles (as the crow flies) from the famed SHGC.

Has anyone else heard about this Tiger sighting?

If anything will get east coast, or, Big money to pony up initiation fees, it would be the chance to belong to a club with both Jack and Tiger designed golf courses.

Agree? Disagree? Make your case?

BTW, It's highly unlikely that it WILL happen, but fun none the less to speculate about it.

[Mac Plumart]

As I am still new to this golf architecture deal, why would we be excited about Tiger Woods building a golf course?  Do we know his style?  Do we know what "kind" of a course he is going to build?  What will its playing characteristics be?  Things like that.

I guess I am totally neutral when I hear he is going to be building courses, as I have no earthly idea whether I will like them or not.  I guess if pressed, I'd say I would not be inclined to go out of my way to play a Tiger course for a whole host of reasons...no the least of which he has no pedigree and/or body of work to highlight what he will be doing.

Knowing what little I know about architecture, I'd like to play Tom Doak's courses...because I like fun greens.  I am not an over-the-top fan of Fazio, but I kind of know what to expect...and I haven't been revolted by any of this work...so I'd play his courses.  Heck, I drove 7 hours (maybe more) to play World Woods and Black Diamond.  They were fun.  Donald Ross...anytime, anywhere...all his courses I've played have been very, very enjoyable.  Subtle off the tee and when approaching the greens, but subtely brilliant.  With greens that are very interesting.  Tiger Woods...eh, I know nothing about him as an architect.

[jeffwarne]

A friend's father was flying his ultra-lite aircraft the other day, and, spotted two Mountain Lions near the South Platte River. But the rarer occurrence was just under a month ago when a Tiger was reported to be surveying ground 4.2 miles (as the crow flies) from the famed SHGC.

Has anyone else heard about this Tiger sighting?

If anything will get east coast, or, Big money to pony up initiation fees, it would be the chance to belong to a club with both Jack and Tiger designed golf courses.

Agree? Disagree? Make your case?

BTW, It's highly unlikely that it WILL happen, but fun none the less to speculate about it.

It's gonna be expensive flying all that sand (and trees) in from Dubai

[JESII]

Adam,

Nice hook with the exotic animal bit...got me interested.

I hate to say it this way because I really don't have much in the way of facts to back me up, but I think more than Tiger and Jack Golf Courses driving the membership it will require contacts and relationships. People will join a mediocre course if their friends are there over a better course. Just my opinion.

[Jason Hines]

Adam,

What are some of the rumor specifics?  Where about’s was a Tiger seen and with whom approximately?

Is someone in the Nebraska Sand Hills going to hit what’s missing?

[Adam Clayman]

Mac, All valid points. BUT, I suspect you, or too many in this forum, would not be the target, or, the justification for inking a deal. But, whoever works for Tiger, will not be a novice architect.

Jason,  The story goes this way. Tiger was here, looking at possibly building the second 18 at DR. It was added that partial ownership was part of it too.

I assume it's a very smart way for the current ownership to increase it's revenue stream.

Sully, I think it boils down to butts in the seat, so to speak. If anything would get the uber wealthy to sign up, it would be the bragging rights of belonging to a club, likely the only club, associated with the two greatest players of the last 50 years.

As I said above, I suspect the deal will be hard to get through to fruition. But still fun to think about what might be.

Jeff Warn, They only need to fly the trees. It is THE SAND HILLS REGION.

[Mac Plumart]

But, whoever works for Tiger, will not be a novice architect.

Now this is where I get confused.  Will Tiger get the credit for being the architect?  Will it be his course?  Or will it be someone else's course, but Tiger's name is on it? 

I guess I have the same confusion with Jack and Arnold.  Chris Cochran was heavily involved with Dismal River, right?  Is Dismal his course or Jack's?  I've always heard Ed Seay did a lot of Arnold's work.  But all the courses are listed as Arnold Palmer designs.  Goofy to me.  Whoever did the work, perhaps focused on the routing, should get the design credit.  No?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Adam I must confess Tiger has a hill to climb to show he is anything more than a zero as an architect. Jack showed that even a sandhill hills course can be made average.

[Jason Hines]

Adam I must confess Tiger has a hill to climb to show he is anything more than a zero as an architect. Jack showed that even a sandhill hills course can be made average.

I will take it a step further Tiger B:

Marketing or Golf?  Marketing or Golf?  Marketing or Golf?  

I think I will take the golf.

P.S.  I cannot believe you guys are debating this while Donald Trump is on the Golf Channel.  Speaking of marketing or golf....

[Scott Szabo]

Adam,

I thought I had heard that Tom Watson was on tap to do the second course at Dismal River.  Was I mistaken?

[Adam Clayman]

No, you weren't mistaken. But, things change.

Tiger B,
I still don't see where quality design enters into this business decision

[Ian Andrew]

Adam,

I understand Ballyneal is kicking around a second course, Dismal River a second with Tiger, Prairie Club with Gil Hanse, etc.

Is there really a market for these memberships or are they all looking at a resort style model. I’m just trying to figure out who is going to fill the courses to pay for the cost of building and maintaining them.

I look forward to your insight because I feel like there’s something I just don’t understand.

[Adam Clayman]

Ian, I won't pretend to have any insight. I suspect there's different reasons for each of the clubs to want a second course, but after typing that, the end result, or desired end result would ultimately be the same. Increase revenue stream. Plus, there's probably an economy of scale associated with the costs of maintenance.

At Ballyneal, I know originally the second course was to allow for cart rides, for members (or public play) who might not be able to walk a first or second 18 holes in one day. Plus, with all that great ground, why not use it for it's potentially greatest use? Links golf.

At Prairie Club, their third course is actually the first course, but due to ownership and specific site changes, will be their 3rd. BTW, They are continuing with their public special this year, only at a $50 increase to $399 for one night and two days of golf.

At DR, a 2nd course was always in their plan, too. Originally it was going to be another JN course ( I thought) but then Mr. Watson's showed a great interest and was actually one of the catalysts in convincing Jack to make the changes at DR. Now, with Tiger being brought in, I hold to my feeling that it's a wise business choice, even if from a design stand point, it's an unproven entity. I also suspect that IMG will a major hurdle to overcome for this to ever happen.

Again my speculation....Is by giving the member (and public) more than one course, you can handle a greater number of rounds. Without sacrificing that special feeling of being out with nature with few distractions or other people around.

Mac, Years ago we covered the subject you are having trouble wrapping your head around. It was learned that the name on the shingle gets the credit. Just the way the world works.

[jeffwarne]

Ian, I won't pretend to have any insight. I suspect there's different reasons for each of the clubs to want a second course, but after typing that, the end result, or desired end result would ultimately be the same. Increase revenue stream. Plus, there's probably an economy of scale associated with the costs of maintenance.

At Ballyneal, I know originally the second course was to allow for cart rides, for members (or public play) who might not be able to walk a first or second 18 holes in one day. Plus, with all that great ground, why not use it for it's potentially greatest use? Links golf.

At Prairie Club, their third course is actually the first course, but due to ownership and specific site changes, will be their 3rd. BTW, They are continuing with their public special this year, only at a $50 increase to $399 for one night and two days of golf.

At DR, a 2nd course was always in their plan, too. Originally it was going to be another JN course ( I thought) but then Mr. Watson's showed a great interest and was actually one of the catalysts in convincing Jack to make the changes at DR. Now, with Tiger being brought in, I hold to my feeling that it's a wise business choice, even if from a design stand point, it's an unproven entity. I also suspect that IMG will a major hurdle to overcome for this to ever happen.

Again my speculation....Is by giving the member (and public) more than one course, you can handle a greater number of rounds. Without sacrificing that special feeling of being out with nature with few distractions or other people around.

Mac, Years ago we covered the subject you are having trouble wrapping your head around. It was learned that the name on the shingle gets the credit. Just the way the world works.

Adam,
I've always been under the impression that people who ventured into the Sand Hills for golf were pretty golf savvy.
Why would an unproven (and recently contoversial) neophyte architect be a better draw than a great course designed by a talented architect who poured his heart into it?
I frankly don't think someone whose more drawn to a Tiger Woods design than to a(insert name here) architect would make for an ideal member.
I don't think Tiger would be any worse than any Tour architect and maybe better as no doubt he wants to make another mark, but there are so many great architects available at the moment who,in addition to being better, would no doubt maximize time on the site and be cheaper.
Perhaps there's a Perkin's nearby which defrays costs?

[George Freeman]

Adam,
I've always been under the impression that people who ventured into the Sand Hills for golf were pretty golf savvy.
Why would an unproven (and recently contoversial) neophyte architect be a better draw than a great course designed by a talented architect who poured his heart into it?
I frankly don't think someone whose more drawn to a Tiger Woods design than to a(insert name here) architect would make for an ideal member.
I don't think Tiger would be any worse than any Tour architect and maybe better as no doubt he wants to make another mark, but there are so many great architects available at the moment who,in addition to being better, would no doubt maximize time on the site and be cheaper.
Perhaps there's a Perkin's nearby which defrays costs?

Jeff,

Maybe the point is get the masses out there vs the relatively limited population of "savvy" golfers? 

The tree house often forgets that we are in the vast minority when it comes to the way people look at golf and golf architecture.  A Tiger Woods course and a Jack Nicklaus course at the same property would undoubtedly be a huge draw for 95% of the "golfing" population. 

Unfortunately, many people who travel to play golf on a regular basis have no idea who Doak, C&C, Hanse, DeVries, etc, are...

[Carl Nichols]

Adam,
I've always been under the impression that people who ventured into the Sand Hills for golf were pretty golf savvy.
Why would an unproven (and recently contoversial) neophyte architect be a better draw than a great course designed by a talented architect who poured his heart into it?
I frankly don't think someone whose more drawn to a Tiger Woods design than to a(insert name here) architect would make for an ideal member.
I don't think Tiger would be any worse than any Tour architect and maybe better as no doubt he wants to make another mark, but there are so many great architects available at the moment who,in addition to being better, would no doubt maximize time on the site and be cheaper.
Perhaps there's a Perkin's nearby which defrays costs?

Jeff,

Maybe the point is get the masses out there vs the relatively limited population of "savvy" golfers?  

The tree house often forgets that we are in the vast minority when it comes to the way people look at golf and golf architecture.  A Tiger Woods course and a Jack Nicklaus course at the same property would undoubtedly be a huge draw for 95% of the "golfing" population.  

Unfortunately, many people who travel to play golf on a regular basis have no idea who Doak, C&C, Hanse, DeVries, etc, are...

George:
I agree with you that, in general, a "Tiger Woods course and a Jack Nicklaus course at the same property would undoubtedly be a huge draw for 95% of the "golfing" population."  But we're not talking about a public facility in Florida, so you first have to ask what percentage of the golfing population is interested in joining a private club in the middle of Nebraska, and then ask whether that limited demographic is going to be drawn to a club just because of a Woods/Nicklaus combo?    

As for me, I already belong to a (local) club where I can't play golf during the winter, so I don't ever see myself joining another club that I also can't play during the winter and that's really hard for me to get to, unless that club is truly great.  So while I would join Sand Hills if lucky enough to be asked,* based on what others have said about Dismal, I couldn't see myself joining there unless the Woods course is simply spectacular [or the Nicklaus course is better than reported].  NOTE: I've neither played Dismal nor Sand Hills, but it's only the latter that I hear people seriously consider a top 10 or 20 course.

*For the access police, please note that I am not trolling for such an invitation.  

[Garland Bayley]

Folks Tiger is not the architect. He is just the Swedish bikini model for the Budweiser beer. The architect probably is that refugee from the Fazio camp that got Tiger the Mexico deal.

My memory may be faulty. It was Bud that used the Swedish bikini models in their commercials many years ago wasn't it?

[PCCraig]

I thought this thread was going to be about the first hot woman seen in Nebraska for the past 10 years...

[Mac Plumart]

Pat...

There are hot women in Nebraska.  Maybe they all work at Sand Hills Golf Club, but nevertheless there are at least two!!  (insert smiley)


Speaking of savvy golfers going to the sandhills for golf.  I invited some clients to join me at Sand Hills for a few days of golf at, arguably, the greatest golf course in the US.  Although avid golfers who play at least 3 times week, they said no.  They were shocked that anyone would go to Nebraska for golf.  I was stunned at this response...and frankly speechless.  So, I ended up with these guys...



and this guy...



Maybe it worked out for the best.

But here is the deal...would they have gone if it was a Tiger Woods design?  Maybe.

[Adam Clayman]

For those ignorant enough to prove it... The current Miss USA is from Nebraska

Here's the teen version

 

And Here's a pic of one of last years contestants, who happens to be from Ogallala







Jeff Warne, George summed up my feelings fairly well. We here in this forum are much too jaded to see the benefit of a Tiger design.

[Sean Leary]

Pat...

There are hot women in Nebraska.  Maybe they all work at Sand Hills Golf Club, but nevertheless there are at least two!!  (insert smiley)


Speaking of savvy golfers going to the sandhills for golf.  I invited some clients to join me at Sand Hills for a few days of golf at, arguably, the greatest golf course in the US.  Although avid golfers who play at least 3 times week, they said no.  They were shocked that anyone would go to Nebraska for golf.  I was stunned at this response...and frankly speechless.  So, I ended up with these guys...




But here is the deal...would they have gone if it was a Tiger Woods design?  Maybe.

Darren Clarke went? Cool.....Always wanted to have a beer with that guy.

[Carl Nichols]

and this guy...

Tommy Armour III? 

[JC Jones]

Tiger B,

Have you played Dismal River?  Curious to know why you say it is mediocre.

Adam,

I think that it is likely the Tiger course at Dismal River would meet the same criticism that Jack's course did.  Not that Jack's course is bad, by all accounts from people I trust it is fantastic.  Nonetheless, the area out there seems to be reserved for the C&C's and Doaks of the world.  Just look at the struggles at the Prairie Club.  If you think it isn't hurting them that they went with an architect who isn't "hot" right now, you'd be fooling yourself.  So, unless they have sold out their memberships at DR, I'd suggest they went with someone like Doak who is the critics' darling and the best marketing architect there is.  He can sell 50 memberships just by posting about the project on GCA.com.

Of course my recommendation would be to give a guy like Mike DeVries a piece of land like that and watch his career blow up like Doak's after Pacific Dunes.  Particularly given that his body of work (i.e. Kingsley and Greywalls) is significantly better than either C&C's or Doaks before they got their first piece of phenomenal land.

[jeffwarne]

For those ignorant enough to prove it... The current Miss USA is from Nebraska

Here's the teen version

 

And Here's a pic of one of last years contestants, who happens to be from Ogallala







Jeff Warne, George summed up my feelings fairly well. We here in this forum are much too jaded to see the benefit of a Tiger design.

I'll bite.
That's Miss USA?

[Chris Johnston]

Tiger B;  I can assure you Dismal River is anything but mediocre.  In fact, hole to hole, it would stack up quite well to the best courses around.  Quite well.

Dismal River is considering adding a second course and less than a handful of exotic characters have indeed been out, including a one or two who hang around here.  Out of respect for them, they shall remain unnamed by me.

And for the record, the site is spectacular.  Among the best I, and others, have ever seen.

Unlike some of our neighbors, Dismal River has little debt, our infrastructure is in place, and is the best around.  Why build a second course?.. because the site is that good and the cost is reasonable.  Unlike some more romantic places with crushing debt loads, we like the kind of golfers and people who become part of Dismal.  In general, they are real, not pretentious, and respect the game.  We measure people far more by the amount of their passion than the size of the wallet.   We are about friends and family coming together.

George - the beauty of our model is you don't have to donate a nut to be come a member.  It's affordable and cool, simple and kind,  truly one of the best experiences out there.  That was the original goal of our neighbor of which I am most grateful to have become a member there early on before it received its well earned acclaim.